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Ray Houghton
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    Posted: 26 Aug 2012 at 11:30pm
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0824/1224322861559.html

They are not having a 7 team first divison. Can't blame them, FAI let too many mickey mouse teams in the first division.
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Beat me too it Embarrassed


Those 2 Galway clubs are a joke alright, get rid of them and bring back Ramblers. 

One tier league should be the way to go.

Edit: Galway United should be re instated too obviously. And i think a break away from the FAI should be looked at in the long term.


Edited by Jason Kelly - 26 Aug 2012 at 11:45pm
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Do Waterford have any schoolboy teams?
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Originally posted by Jason Kelly Jason Kelly wrote:

Beat me too it 

Those 2 Galway clubs are a joke alright, get rid of them and bring back Ramblers. 

One tier league should be the way to go.
Would love to see Queenstown back. I think GUST are applying for a licence too. 

Defiantly need a one tiered league for the next few years. It would hugely benefit the small clubs to have the likes of Sligo, Rovers and Cork visiting.

Big clubs won't want it though. Shamrock Rovers want a 10 team premier again ffs. Every time it's tried it gets changed back again. Playing the same team four times a year is a joke.
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Originally posted by Jason Kelly Jason Kelly wrote:

 


 And i think a break away from the FAI should be looked at in the long term.
Agree with this. The way they've treated the league is a joke. Particular regards prize money. The licence fee is 19k yet most clubs make less than that from prize money. 

In fact, last year, 21 teams paid 19k entrance fee which altogether amounted to 399k. Yet the overall prize money was 223,500. So the FAI actually MADE A PROFIT out of the league while clubs are on their knees.
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Originally posted by gazelle. gazelle. wrote:


Originally posted by Jason Kelly Jason Kelly wrote:

Beat me too it 

Those 2 Galway clubs are a joke alright, get rid of them and bring back Ramblers. 

One tier league should be the way to go.
Would love to see Queenstown back. I think GUST are applying for a licence too. 

Defiantly need a one tiered league for the next few years. It would hugely benefit the small clubs to have the likes of Sligo, Rovers and Cork visiting.

Big clubs won't want it though. Shamrock Rovers want a 10 team premier again ffs. Every time it's tried it gets changed back again. Playing the same team four times a year is a joke.


why would small teams in Prem want it either? sham rvs coming to town twice or rvs once and SD Galway?
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Originally posted by gazelle. gazelle. wrote:


Originally posted by Jason Kelly Jason Kelly wrote:

 


 And i think a break away from the FAI should be looked at in the long term.
Agree with this. The way they've treated the league is a joke. Particular regards prize money. The licence fee is 19k yet most clubs make less than that from prize money. 

In fact, last year, 21 teams paid 19k entrance fee which altogether amounted to 399k. Yet the overall prize money was 223,500. So the FAI actually MADE A PROFIT out of the league while clubs are on their knees.
Yep, those figures are spot on Gazelle, thats why i sugested it. Its a f**king disgrace. Their bankrupting our game to fund their jollies on the continent. The quicker clubs realise this and make a breakaway from that farce of an organisation the better.

For the forseeable future, a single league is the way to go imo. A 2 tier league is just not sustainable at the moment for the smaller clubs. The possibility of having a 7 team 1st Division is just lunacy.
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Something has to change, there is no way a 7 team league (even saying it out loud sounds ridiculous FFS) is sustainable. I don't think John O'Sullivan (chairman) is making idle threats either, it would be the common consensus here that it is his own personal money keeping the club afloat the past few years, and he isn't exactly Abramovich. 


@ Landon, Waterford have 26 (I stand to be corrected) teams in the local schoolboys league. 
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Originally posted by UCD AFC UCD AFC wrote:

why would small teams in Prem want it either? sham rvs coming to town twice or rvs once and SD Galway?
Would you feel the same way if UCD get relegated this year I wonder?


Gammy teams like Salthill and Mervue couldn't be included. AFAIK they are dropping out at the end of this year anyway.


The single division would be to benefit the likes of Waterford, Limerick, Longford, Athlone and Finn Harps. Clubs that could be mid table premier sides or better if they were given the chance to get the benefits of having the big boys in town. They'd have a better chance than UCD anyway. 


The survival of these clubs could depend on a single division as Waterfords chairman has already stated.









Edited by gazelle. - 27 Aug 2012 at 12:19am
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Lifted this lengthy post from BTID, courtesy of the poster ' Bluebeard' there. 

A lot of valid points, and a few concrete suggestions to go with them; 



I know that all of us have, over the years and even this season, had various gripes with the club about different things, but I think that we are truly united behind the club on this. Something clearly needs to be done. A discussion must take place. However, it appears that without the threat of action, nothing will happen. It may seem a risky strategy - none of us want the club to leave the league - but there are no rewards without risk. The League needs to see that changing from 10 to 12 in the top division every couple of years is not fixing things for very many. If everyone acts like there is no problem, nothing will change. 

I am reminded of that famous Primo Levi line from a much more gruesome circumstance: When they came for the Jews, I said nothing, because I was not a Jew. While in no way does this circumstance bear comparison in terms of tragedy and loss, one does see the parallel in that many clubs are not in trouble and are doing nothing, because they are not in trouble. 

I don't disagree with some of the core concepts behind the push for 10 or 12. Largely, I think that the theory is that the league of ten will have more of the better players playing more of the better players more often, and therefore they should get better and therefore these teams will be able to do better in Europe. This is not fuzzy thinking - we have a smaller pool that is regularly looted and it largely needs to be concentrated in order to improve. However it is plagued with fuzzy timing. Small team top tiers work best in countries with some of the following characteristics: small in physical size with the clubs close together: a smaller population; there is a reasonable chance of national team players playing in their national league; there is the money to bring in people from abroad; there is genuine support at home for the local clubs fromm both fans and other clubs. Right now, very few of these things apply - our clubs are (rightly in my opinion) scattered throughout the land but sadly, there is a glut of location for the majority in the top division. This is leading to a massive move of talent to Dublin, but also to the top regional clubs dominating their region to the exclusion of the others in the area, which in turn has lead to the departure of players from places like Limerick (to Cork), Athlone (lately to Longford) and Donegal (Derry) for example. Weaker players = less support = smaller income = poorer facilities / incentive to stay = even the weaker players depart. And it gets worse from there. Athlone, which has a good tradition, and had great support is in the doldrums for decades. Similarly Limerick and Finn Harps. We lose out to Cork too, and that doesn't help us. 

The consequent tradition of not bothering about your local club is being exported to the major cities thanks to the recent trend of internal immigration: as a result the clubs there will lose out too. In the Irish context - a world where the local is celebrated above the national (CF the localised Olympic celebrations, the success of the club and county structure of the GAA, the fact that the Examiner is considered a national daily, the mistrust of "that shower in the Dail in Dublin") - we need to find an Irish solution to the problem.

The first thing is to identify the problem. While I may bang on about success in Europe, and the grail that is the co-efficient, the truth is that improving the co-efficient will solve no problems. The problem is not European standing, it is Irish standing. We need to focus on making the league a thing of value. While doing well in Europe will do something towards that, we have seen repeatedly that this is not enough. Tallaght is motivated about Rovers, but that predated the Europa Cup run. And having only one club doing well with an enthusiastic fan base is simply not enough - we saw how that castrated the league in the 1980s - the last time Rovers dominated. For the league to succeed with the public, there have to be a lot of clubs doing well attendance wise.

We need to look at one of the core ideas of the Italian thinker Gramsci: what benefits the weaker in society will benefit the stronger. Then there is that hoary old chestnut: a herd is only as fast as it's slowest buffalo. We need to embrace this kind of thinking rather than this attitude that as long as we are OK, then I don't care: the reality should be "but for the grace of god, there go I". 

I would suggest that we need to completely rethink football in the country. More specifically we need to do the following things to help develop the league:

1. Single tier for the next five years. The clubs need to be in a more stable position than they currently are, in order to get themselves in order. Look at how quickly Longford collapsed on returning to the First, and look how well Bray and Drogheda have returned by the fortune of staying up in spite of their performance. A couple of years of stability and a guarantee of a few teams coming that people might want to see should benefit them all.

2. Talk to the people. If we have this period of enforced stability, we need to use it to see what people want. A lot of work needs to be put in to explore what the public wants, what the clubs need, what the players think. This should be ongoing over the period of the five years as attitudes might change in the different circumstances. Most importantly, this needs to continue AFTER any recommended changes are made. Clubs need to take a lead in this too.

3. Properly explore the way the following leagues have developed:
Tippiligaen, Norway - no followers 30 years ago as everyone followed English football, has recently had regular bursts of success on European stage, doing pretty well attendance wise 
MLS, USA - rising in popularlity in a country where it is fifth favourite team sport, very new league, lost two major teams in 2000 or thereabouts, now stronger than ever before in terms of representation and attendance, v. different approach to running football
Erste Liga, Austria - Country is very similar to Ireland in many ways, in shadow of far more illustrious neighbor, successful past haunts it.
Superliga, Denmark - Country is very similar to Ireland in many ways, completely restructured the league about 20 years ago, with some success, shadow of English football
There are plenty of other leagues that probably bear a lot of exploring too, but these were the ones that came first to mind

4. Junior leagues MUST be involved. At the moment, the junior clubs generally despise their senior counterparts, largely as they see them as rivals for the big English monies. Both the league clubs and the junior clubs as fools - the English millionaires are paying pittances for kids compared to what they will throw them off for. Alan Bennett went for maybe a quarter of a million. Before he'd played a game in England, Staunton capped him - he hadn't improved THAT much. What current internationals are available in England for under 4 or 5 million? The local clubs must make proper connections with the local leagues - getting promoted to your League of Ireland club needs to be seen as a vital step for any junior player on the road to the target of a professional contract somewhere foreign. I would also suggest that local and regional coaches be situated in the local league club where possible, with certain evenings of the week where they are available to the various local leagues to train the Oscar Traynor team, or exceptional prospects. Something realy needs to be done about the registration issue too.

5. Genuinely explore the case for Franchises. I think we all have ideas about what we think franchised football is. MK Dons is one example that comes to mind, Galway being promoted on the back of a DVD is another. Those are two of the least palateable ways that these things could go. I look a lot a the MLS - which is far from perfect - but clubs don't get shifted around. Indeed, the league is helping to develop those clubs in some ways, and keeping a close look at certain of their off-the-field activities - the easy to spot example is a standardisation of their websites, and easy linking between them. I am not saying that we should go down this road, but in unfranchised football we currently have 7 of 11 top tier clubs within 30 minutes of the M50, and Dundalk not much further again - that's not great either.

6. International Knowhow. One of the more interesting things in the book Soccernomics, is the discussion of the networks of European football. The more successful nations were the ones that were more connected to the major networks shooting out from Germany, the Netherlands and Italy. This is why divided and small Belgium used to do so well, caught right in the middle. We are generally very isolated. We connect with Britain, chiefly England, and none other. We need to be harnessing some of the European knowhow. We need to bring in the coaches from the Netherlands or whereever, on a long term basis. We need to explore routes OTHER than the British ones. Some guy in the Indo made an interesting point - Trap's footballing style with the national team is dull and unexciting, but the Irish are filled with divilment - that should be considered. Trap doesn't know the Irish people, he knows English style football, and he plays accordingly to that expectation. We need to stop comparing all our football to the British or English style (which these days still exists in League 1 and lower, or Scotland, tbh), and figure out what we would like to see. 
Similarly, off the field, we need to explore the other ways clubs are run abroad. For example, Barca are a multiple sports club, with volleyball, basketball and other programmes - why not us too, and boost our basketball or volleyball or athletics programmes in the country, the league clubs are well placed for doing this, there may even be grants available. We need to explore how clubs are run as a business in the US (where it is nearly a science), how they relate to their communities, and their schools. We are lucky in this at Waterford in that we have plucked ourselves an expert from Britain for the commercial side, and we have developed a lot with WIT. But I would guess there is still more we can do (PADDY'S DAY FLOAT!) and that is probably true for other league clubs.

7. Marquee Players. We have seen the effect of a high calibre player like Joe N'Do and how he has lifted whatever club he is at. Similarly so with Charles Livingston Mbabzi, or Joe Gamble, or a few of the bigger money or international players who have come over to the league. In the past, the Blues did this with Bobby Charlton Bobby Tambling, Peter Thomas, Jose Quitongo, etc. It gives a boost to the club, and to the league. They might not be amazing all the time but it lifts all. Irish Cricket has done this too, with one of the Cronjie's being signed up for a few years. Not only does it give a lift, but it also passes on the knowledge the player has and connects to those networks I mention above. It has really built up the MLS. I would suggest that some of the money should be made available for each club to be exclusively used to hire or pay the difference in wage to a Marquee Player who is entitled to a greater wage than he might otherwise get. If all the clubs had one, be it former international, incredibly hot prospect, someone from a different world of football, unique flair player, whatever, it could lift the lot. These players would obviously have to be full time, with other responibilities than playing - call it the tennis style club professional if you like, but someone that the whole local community should recognise. Hopefully, some of these guys might stay in their communities, and become local coaches with a different perspective on football.

8. Promotion of the League. The league is very much second place to the International team in the FAI's understanding of things. Which is right and makes sense given the response of the Irish public. But that is a response fed by years of nothing on the TV, in the papers, or on billboards about the league, and loads on the Premiership. We cannot stop the BBC or sky airing in Ireland, but we could do something about MNS being on a Monday late night slot for an hour, and the Premiership being primetime weekend viewing. The FAI must surely have some say in this. Even if they don't there is a hell of a lot more that could be done to promote the league than currently is, especially during the International games, when there could be some reference to it. Again, we should see what they did in Norway - their league was a joke in the 80s, now it is well considered, while people still follow the English game.

9. The FAI must be not be above criticism. Look at every guise of Russia - repression of criticism has not helpe it economically, be it Tsars, Stalin or Putin. Lack of criticism means less need for problem solving / appeasing the public means a stagnancy of development. I actually believe that the guys at the top really do want the best for the league, but insulation from the fans and from criticism will not help them. I don't mean that they have to take every criticism on board, but they could do better than repressing all comment.

I'm sure that not all the above alone are the road map to development, but I do think that most of them, particularly the first, will greatly assist in the positioning of the league - and the FAI - on the road to exploring a better future for the league. I have to say that I am very proud to be a Blue in light of the club putting its balls on the line to improve the future of the league - time for the rest to step up to match this. 





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Originally posted by gazelle. gazelle. wrote:

Originally posted by UCD AFC UCD AFC wrote:

why would small teams in Prem want it either? sham rvs coming to town twice or rvs once and SD Galway?
Would you feel the same way if UCD get relegated this year I wonder?


Gammy teams like Salthill and Mervue couldn't be included. AFAIK they are dropping out at the end of this year anyway.

Not giving my opinion, just pointing out not only big clubs would be against it


Originally posted by gazelle. gazelle. wrote:




The single division would be to benefit the likes of Waterford, Limerick, Longford, Athlone and Finn Harps. Clubs that could be mid table premier sides or better if they were given the chance to get the benefits of having the big boys in town. They'd have a better chance than UCD anyway. 


The survival of these clubs could depend on a single division as Waterfords chairman has already stated.




Better chance than UCD of doing what exactly? The only point I can see you're making is they'd be better than UCD if they had more money? which is ridiculous if that's what you're getting at
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Originally posted by UCD AFC UCD AFC wrote:

Originally posted by gazelle. gazelle. wrote:

Originally posted by UCD AFC UCD AFC wrote:

why would small teams in Prem want it either? sham rvs coming to town twice or rvs once and SD Galway?
Would you feel the same way if UCD get relegated this year I wonder?


Gammy teams like Salthill and Mervue couldn't be included. AFAIK they are dropping out at the end of this year anyway.

Not giving my opinion, just pointing out not only big clubs would be against it


Originally posted by gazelle. gazelle. wrote:




The single division would be to benefit the likes of Waterford, Limerick, Longford, Athlone and Finn Harps. Clubs that could be mid table premier sides or better if they were given the chance to get the benefits of having the big boys in town. They'd have a better chance than UCD anyway. 


The survival of these clubs could depend on a single division as Waterfords chairman has already stated.




Better chance than UCD of doing what exactly?

Getting a fanbase.
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UCD are the real model produce players year after year educate players have good training facilites and never over spend they are the best asset the league has
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Originally posted by TBWRA TBWRA wrote:

UCD are the real model produce players year after year educate players have good training facilites and never over spend they are the best asset the league has

Clap

Bray as well for the amount of young players they bring through. 
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Waterford can ask my rope. Tried and failed 7 years on the spin to get promoted out of a dire league, now they are trying the boardroom threats approach. Call their bluff John.

A 16 team PD was a disaster before and will be a disaster again. No relegation leads to total stagnation with 12 of the teams knowing they can hang on in there year after year while the top 4 fight it out for Europe. Imagine a league where 75% of games are meaningless with lower crowds. How on earth is that the way forward?
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Originally posted by corkery corkery wrote:

Originally posted by UCD AFC UCD AFC wrote:

 

Better chance than UCD of doing what exactly?

Getting a fanbase.

This. 

Originally posted by roverstillidie roverstillidie wrote:


Waterford can ask my rope. Tried and failed 7 years on the spin to get promoted out of a dire league, now they are trying the boardroom threats approach. Call their bluff John.

Are you saying you don't believe that Wayerford cannot survive another year in a 7 team first division? I don't think there is much clubs in the league who could survive in a 7 team first division. Especially when two of those clubs are Salthill and Mervue.

Originally posted by roverstillidie roverstillidie wrote:

A 16 team PD was a disaster before and will be a disaster again. No relegation leads to total stagnation with 12 of the teams knowing they can hang on in there year after year while the top 4 fight it out for Europe. Imagine a league where 75% of games are meaningless with lower crowds. How on earth is that the way forward?

The single tiered division would only be temporary imo. Have it for about 5 years or so. Small teams like Athlone, Waterford, Finn Harps, Limerick and Longford can use this time to build up/get back a fanbase and raise some decent revenue. 



The meaningless games problem can be sorted out by having the teams that finish 3rd-6th, inclusive, play off- for the final european spot. This would give the top 9 or 10 clubs something to play for and the rest a chance to boost the coffers. 
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one team league is a no go, how ya can give someone in the bottom half a euruopean place and someone who finishes 4th nothing? if that happened attendances would be a record low by september
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As a Blues fan I am naturally worried about the future survival of the club & totally agree with the club's assertion that given the putative set up of next year's 1st Division they may not survive.

The FAI have a duty to all clubs in both divisions & perhaps the time has come to consider the pros & cons of a 1 tier league in an effort to ensure that the demise of clubs such as Galway United , Cobh RamblerS , Cork City ( the original club ) & Monaghan United comes to an end.

I note that Shamrock Rovers are opposed to a 1 tier league & as they are currently placed 4th in the league & are the 2nd placed team in the Capital after Pats their voice carries considerable weight ,teams such as Rovers should however reflect on their own past difficulties - after all they were effectively homeless for 22 years & only continued to exist due to the willingness of other teams to sublet their grounds to them & of course it was only the forbearance of the FAI that enabled them to continue after they fraudulently lodged accounts from 2003 in 2005 in order to acquire the required license.

I say this not to denigrate Rovers who are a credit to the League & who in recent years have signposted the way forward but to show that even the most successful clubs ( currently ) have required assistance from the FAI & other clubs in the past .

Hopefully , John Delaney with his & his father's long attachment to the Blues will together with the other governing members of the FAI in conjunction with all League clubs will give due consideration to protecting the league & all it's clubs into the future.

Edited by deiseblue - 27 Aug 2012 at 1:10pm
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