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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote t_rAndy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2019 at 8:42pm
In the slow motion it looks like trent moves his hand but I think it was just the way his body was moving, in realtime it hits him fast without much to to react.. His arms are down,.he is trying to defend. 
I think in the days before VAR, we would have all been saying it was extremely harsh if that was given
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote the_walls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2019 at 8:44pm
My understanding of the law is that there doesn't have to be any intent from an attacking player for it to be deemed a foul. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberto Baggio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2019 at 8:45pm
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Good refereeing by Michael Oliver

Technically it should have been a free kick to Liverpool for the handball by Silva but that was an excellent advantage

He let the Kop ref it for him at times 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doherty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2019 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by t_rAndy t_rAndy wrote:

In the slow motion it looks like trent moves his hand but I think it was just the way his body was moving, in realtime it hits him fast without much to to react.. His arms are down,.he is trying to defend. 
I think in the days before VAR, we would have all been saying it was extremely harsh if that was given

I agree harsh before VAR but when you look at the penos that are given now how can they decide that was not a peno. By todays logic he stuck his arm out and it was a peno. Defo got away with that one today.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberto Baggio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2019 at 8:47pm
The Mane push on Sterling was an even more ridiculous call
Since when can you push a player with two hands in the back when he’s running past you in this increasingly contact-free sport? Anywhere else on the pitch that’s a free. 

And to think many said there was enough in the Mane vs Leicester incident to warrant a penalty


Edited by Roberto Baggio - 10 Nov 2019 at 8:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2019 at 8:47pm
At least it has put an end to all the debates around contentious decisions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberto Baggio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2019 at 8:58pm
Was Salah offside or not?
Sky’s graphic which came 40 minutes after the goal showed he was well on, however other photos and videos have emerged to show that he was off.

Why’d sky take so long to show a replay and pause it when the ball is played? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shedite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2019 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Was Salah offside or not?
Sky’s graphic which came 40 minutes after the goal showed he was well on, however other photos and videos have emerged to show that he was off.

Why’d sky take so long to show a replay and pause it when the ball is played? 
Definltey not
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary McKay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2019 at 10:11am
Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Was Salah offside or not?
Sky’s graphic which came 40 minutes after the goal showed he was well on, however other photos and videos have emerged to show that he was off.

Why’d sky take so long to show a replay and pause it when the ball is played? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote keith11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2019 at 10:21am
Not using a monitor , not knowing their own rules , the worst referees in the world,  the english arrogance of the Premier League - all factors as to why VAR isnt working.  The systems not foolproof but the idiots in charge make it impossible and its now highlighting why UEFA/FIFA has such a low opinion of english officials.

I cant understand why TAAs handball was even being discussed , the first handball was by Bernardo and accidental or not it immediately stops the play for Man City as they would have gained an advantage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OnTheOneRoad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2019 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by t_rAndy t_rAndy wrote:

In the slow motion it looks like trent moves his hand but I think it was just the way his body was moving, in realtime it hits him fast without much to to react.. His arms are down,.he is trying to defend. 
I think in the days before VAR, we would have all been saying it was extremely harsh if that was given

Arm away from body - unnatural position - hits him in the arm. Simple decision - penalty to City.

The referee realises that he would have to pull the game back 20 or 30 seconds and in one move take away a goal from liverpool and give a penalty to city at Anfield, and does not want to make that decision. Thus we get to the same problem in that a system that is supposedly 'perfect' is open to interpretation by the same refs that it was brought in to help. 

VAR decisions should be made independently of the referee on the pitch. Aside from any referee being naturally biased towards thinking their initial decision was the correct one and thus being naturally disinclined to consult VAR; we know that English refs can favour narratives over correct calls. Was it Clattenburg who said he 'wanted to see Spurs lose it themselves' and thus refused to give them any red cards against Chelsea that year Leicester won the league? That has absolutely zero to do with refereeing and everything to do with the referee himself. Ego-driven decisions are common in the Premier League.

VAR is not absolutely unworkable, but it is unworkable in its present form.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberto Baggio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2019 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by OnTheOneRoad OnTheOneRoad wrote:

Originally posted by t_rAndy t_rAndy wrote:

In the slow motion it looks like trent moves his hand but I think it was just the way his body was moving, in realtime it hits him fast without much to to react.. His arms are down,.he is trying to defend. 
I think in the days before VAR, we would have all been saying it was extremely harsh if that was given

Arm away from body - unnatural position - hits him in the arm. Simple decision - penalty to City.

The referee realises that he would have to pull the game back 20 or 30 seconds and in one move take away a goal from liverpool and give a penalty to city at Anfield, and does not want to make that decision. Thus we get to the same problem in that a system that is supposedly 'perfect' is open to interpretation by the same refs that it was brought in to help. 

VAR decisions should be made independently of the referee on the pitch. Aside from any referee being naturally biased towards thinking their initial decision was the correct one and thus being naturally disinclined to consult VAR; we know that English refs can favour narratives over correct calls. Was it Clattenburg who said he 'wanted to see Spurs lose it themselves' and thus refused to give them any red cards against Chelsea that year Leicester won the league? That has absolutely zero to do with refereeing and everything to do with the referee himself. Ego-driven decisions are common in the Premier League.

VAR is not absolutely unworkable, but it is unworkable in its present form.
 
It isn't up to the ref. If the VAR tells him in his earpiece 30 seconds later that it should have been a City penalty then he had to give it. The VAR said it wasn't, we are told.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Drumcondra 69er Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2019 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Originally posted by OnTheOneRoad OnTheOneRoad wrote:

Originally posted by t_rAndy t_rAndy wrote:

In the slow motion it looks like trent moves his hand but I think it was just the way his body was moving, in realtime it hits him fast without much to to react.. His arms are down,.he is trying to defend. 
I think in the days before VAR, we would have all been saying it was extremely harsh if that was given

Arm away from body - unnatural position - hits him in the arm. Simple decision - penalty to City.

The referee realises that he would have to pull the game back 20 or 30 seconds and in one move take away a goal from liverpool and give a penalty to city at Anfield, and does not want to make that decision. Thus we get to the same problem in that a system that is supposedly 'perfect' is open to interpretation by the same refs that it was brought in to help. 

VAR decisions should be made independently of the referee on the pitch. Aside from any referee being naturally biased towards thinking their initial decision was the correct one and thus being naturally disinclined to consult VAR; we know that English refs can favour narratives over correct calls. Was it Clattenburg who said he 'wanted to see Spurs lose it themselves' and thus refused to give them any red cards against Chelsea that year Leicester won the league? That has absolutely zero to do with refereeing and everything to do with the referee himself. Ego-driven decisions are common in the Premier League.

VAR is not absolutely unworkable, but it is unworkable in its present form.
 
It isn't up to the ref. If the VAR tells him in his earpiece 30 seconds later that it should have been a City penalty then he had to give it. The VAR said it wasn't, we are told.
 
 

A handball resulting in creating ot preventing a goalscoring opportunity doesn;t have to be deliberte any more so surely if they called it back it would have to have been a Liverpool free for the Silva handball before the Alexander-Arnold one. The penalty would have come from Silva playing the ball after it was accidentally controled with his hand so that would have meant a handball created a goalscoring opportunity, 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote t_rAndy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2019 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by OnTheOneRoad OnTheOneRoad wrote:

Originally posted by t_rAndy t_rAndy wrote:

In the slow motion it looks like trent moves his hand but I think it was just the way his body was moving, in realtime it hits him fast without much to to react.. His arms are down,.he is trying to defend. 
I think in the days before VAR, we would have all been saying it was extremely harsh if that was given

Arm away from body - unnatural position - hits him in the arm. Simple decision - penalty to City.

The referee realises that he would have to pull the game back 20 or 30 seconds and in one move take away a goal from liverpool and give a penalty to city at Anfield, and does not want to make that decision. Thus we get to the same problem in that a system that is supposedly 'perfect' is open to interpretation by the same refs that it was brought in to help. 

VAR decisions should be made independently of the referee on the pitch. Aside from any referee being naturally biased towards thinking their initial decision was the correct one and thus being naturally disinclined to consult VAR; we know that English refs can favour narratives over correct calls. Was it Clattenburg who said he 'wanted to see Spurs lose it themselves' and thus refused to give them any red cards against Chelsea that year Leicester won the league? That has absolutely zero to do with refereeing and everything to do with the referee himself. Ego-driven decisions are common in the Premier League.

VAR is not absolutely unworkable, but it is unworkable in its present form.

I think slowed down, yes I can see why you might say that, I’ll agree stand-alone it veered just above the threshold to give a peno. 

But actually I think judging if it should or should not have been a peno is redundant in this case because actually the initial incident was the Silva hand ball that created an unfair attacking advantage  and reading the new handball rules it should be a free kick if the attacker gets a clear unfair advantage by gaining possession or control of the ball as a result of making contact with the hand or arm. So in this incident I think we can all agree that city got the advantage and therefore this is Incident number 1 in favor of Liverpool. 
Then we have incident 2 which was a handball from Liverpool so therefore this in favor of City.
Then we have the goal from Liverpool in favor of Liverpool.

I think what needs to be clarified is what takes precedence in such instances. Since Incident 1 was in Liverpools favor, do they get the overall advantage and benefit from the goal? 
Or does the fact that incident 2 was in favor of city, do they need to bring the whole game back to what should have been the original call, I.e. free kick to Liverpool?

Would love to see the refs or VAR make a statement around this

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Moleman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2019 at 1:10pm
On the first goal, there is no definitive answer. It is a judgement call by the officials. The second handball by TAA is a bog standard call, it can never ever be awarded (Guardiola going mad at that decision only adds to the utter nonsense around the handball discussion).

On the first one, it will be given sometimes, other times not. TAA arm is coming out, but he is moving and then trying to stop. It is actually a natural type body shape in such a scenario. He is not standing still facing ahead blocking a long range shot with his arm right out. Completely different scenario. I have some sympathy for the VAR here as there simply isn't a definitive answer on that handball. The rules are the issue, and even though they've tidied up a lot of handball scenarios (TAA body position in the 2nd one is the perfect example where a penalty can't be given), there is more than can be done on that side of it.

Also, it would be a comedy in one sense to have 2 players accidentally handle the ball in the space of a second, one deflecting with a hand onto the other players hand, and end up with a penalty being given. They will say that that didn't effect the decision making around it, but I've no doubt it did. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shedite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2019 at 1:22pm
Imagine TAA wasn't there, ball falls to Sterling - goal. VAR would have looked at it, seen Bernardos handball, and disallowed the goal.

TAA's handball only prevented a disallowed goal anyway, so no penalty.

Effectively, the chance was dead once it hits Bernardos hand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Moleman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2019 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by Drumcondra 69er Drumcondra 69er wrote:

Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Originally posted by OnTheOneRoad OnTheOneRoad wrote:

Originally posted by t_rAndy t_rAndy wrote:

In the slow motion it looks like trent moves his hand but I think it was just the way his body was moving, in realtime it hits him fast without much to to react.. His arms are down,.he is trying to defend. 
I think in the days before VAR, we would have all been saying it was extremely harsh if that was given

Arm away from body - unnatural position - hits him in the arm. Simple decision - penalty to City.

The referee realises that he would have to pull the game back 20 or 30 seconds and in one move take away a goal from liverpool and give a penalty to city at Anfield, and does not want to make that decision. Thus we get to the same problem in that a system that is supposedly 'perfect' is open to interpretation by the same refs that it was brought in to help. 

VAR decisions should be made independently of the referee on the pitch. Aside from any referee being naturally biased towards thinking their initial decision was the correct one and thus being naturally disinclined to consult VAR; we know that English refs can favour narratives over correct calls. Was it Clattenburg who said he 'wanted to see Spurs lose it themselves' and thus refused to give them any red cards against Chelsea that year Leicester won the league? That has absolutely zero to do with refereeing and everything to do with the referee himself. Ego-driven decisions are common in the Premier League.

VAR is not absolutely unworkable, but it is unworkable in its present form.
 
It isn't up to the ref. If the VAR tells him in his earpiece 30 seconds later that it should have been a City penalty then he had to give it. The VAR said it wasn't, we are told.
 
 

A handball resulting in creating ot preventing a goalscoring opportunity doesn;t have to be deliberte any more so surely if they called it back it would have to have been a Liverpool free for the Silva handball before the Alexander-Arnold one. The penalty would have come from Silva playing the ball after it was accidentally controled with his hand so that would have meant a handball created a goalscoring opportunity, 

Think this is technically incorrect. The ball must end up in the bet,then you work backwards and see if there was an attacking handball. The ball doesn't end up in the net, so it's simply a case of whether Silva handles accidentally or not.

Now if TAA had never touched it, Aguero got on the ball after Silva and scored, it would definitely be disallowed.

The handball issues are still a bit of a mess and need more clearing up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Moleman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2019 at 1:31pm
Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Imagine TAA wasn't there, ball falls to Sterling - goal. VAR would have looked at it, seen Bernardos handball, and disallowed the goal.

TAA's handball only prevented a disallowed goal anyway, so no penalty.

Effectively, the chance was dead once it hits Bernardos hand.

As comical as it would be to give the penalty after 2 handballs like that, I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. They could well have given a penalty here. The Silva handball wouldn't have lead to a goal. Maybe you give the penalty, work backwards and after Aguero scores the penalty, rule it out for Silva's involvement with the hand LOL 
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