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Jack Charlton
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    Posted: 05 Dec 2022 at 6:55pm
Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

And yeah, I'm all for teams like Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Tunisia, Iran, Costa Rica, Ghana, Ecuador, Senegal, Cameroon all who won games in this World Cup over more Wales, Serbia, Denmark who stunk the place up.
I'm not arguing against all those teams you cite admiringly from taking their place in Qatar.

But while they may have had some good individual performances which stick in the mind, you overlook the poor performances eg Spain beating Costa Rica 7-0; or Saudi losing to moderate teams like  Poland and Mexico. Also the failure of 7 of the 9 even to get out of their Group.

More importantly, you seem to overlook that those are the best of Africa, Asia and Central America. How entertaining or interesting do you think the second rate teams from those regions would be in 2026, when a predictable defeat in their first game would effectively render their second game meaningless and send them on their way back home.

I fear that eg Qatar this time would provide a closer template i.e. Played 3, Lost 3, Scored 1 Conceded 7 - and that with the benefit of home advantage!


Edited by Territorial - 05 Dec 2022 at 6:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shedite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2022 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

I don't want more European teams in the WC group stages for the same reason I don't want more English/Spanish clubs in Champions League group stage.

Sounds like I'm in the minority here, but I prefer watching Egypt/Nigeria/Colombia in the WC than Sweden/Slovakia/Ukraine. I watch Sweden/Slovakia/Ukraine on Nations League highlights show 6 times a year.
If it's a trade-off between watching competitive games involving  European teams with whom we're familiar, versus new, but third rate, teams from Africa or Asia in uncompetitive or  meaningless games, then I am going for the former.

Bear in mind, too, that there will be 63 games in this Finals, whereas 2026 will have 80 games i.e. even if every one was a cracker, there simply isn't enough time in the day to keep up with all of them.

And that's if they don't stick with the format of 16 groups of 3 teams etc. There is talk now of reconfiguring 2026 to involve 12 groups of 4 teams. This would produce 104 games!

So Ivory Coast versus Denmark might be preferable to you over Switzerland versus Denmark, for imstance. But Ivory Coast versus Bolivia, kicking off at the same time as Kenya versus Iraq and New Zealand versus El Salvador, with none of them having any hope of progressing?

What would Dunphy have to say about that! Wink

Yeah I've said from the off that I'm against expanding to 48, and as ya said even FIFA have already seen the stupidity in the groups of 3, that'll be canned anyway.

You're picking all the 4th placed teams in your examples there. They wouldn't be in the same groups. 

And yeah, I'm all for teams like Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Tunisia, Iran, Costa Rica, Ghana, Ecuador, Senegal, Cameroon all who won games in this World Cup over more Wales, Serbia, Denmark who stunk the place up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2022 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

I don't want more European teams in the WC group stages for the same reason I don't want more English/Spanish clubs in Champions League group stage.

Sounds like I'm in the minority here, but I prefer watching Egypt/Nigeria/Colombia in the WC than Sweden/Slovakia/Ukraine. I watch Sweden/Slovakia/Ukraine on Nations League highlights show 6 times a year.
If it's a trade-off between watching competitive games involving  European teams with whom we're familiar, versus new, but third rate, teams from Africa or Asia in uncompetitive or  meaningless games, then I am going for the former.

Bear in mind, too, that there will be 63 games in this Finals, whereas 2026 will have 80 games i.e. even if every one was a cracker, there simply isn't enough time in the day to keep up with all of them.

And that's if they don't stick with the format of 16 groups of 3 teams etc. There is talk now of reconfiguring 2026 to involve 12 groups of 4 teams. This would produce 104 games!
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/dec/01/world-cup-organisers-consider-ditching-three-team-group-format-for-2026

So Ivory Coast versus Denmark might be preferable to you over Switzerland versus Denmark, for imstance. But Ivory Coast versus Bolivia, kicking off at the same time as Kenya versus Iraq and New Zealand versus El Salvador, with none of them having any hope of progressing?

What would Dunphy have to say about that! Wink

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

]I'm not old enough to remember but heard a lot of stories about how football in Ireland was looked down on in pre-88. Dunphy had a good emotional rant about it 
Trust me, it wasn't just in ROI/NI, football was severely looked down upon in GB too, arguably more so - eg Hillsborough/Heysel/Bradford; hooliganism/racism/sexism; dwindling crowds in sh*t stadia with terrible facilities etc
 
And I firmly believe it was a combination of Gazza's tears at Italia 90, and the PL/Sky, with all the money that brought in, which first stopped the rot, then turned it round.

All of which had something of a a spillove, popularity-wise, in Scotland/Wales/ROI and NI, since the game in those countries has so many links with the English game.

But if the game's image has turned round markedly in the period since, it is only the English game which has taken full advantage, for I contend that there has been little or no corresponding practical or physical legacy for domestic football in ROI, whether stemming from developments in England or from ROI's successes in the World Cup or Euro's.

Contrast that eg with the success eg of GAA, professional Rugby, Golf or Horse racing over the last 30 years in developing their sports to keep up with the times. Why even Irish Cricket has progressed to Test status!



Edited by Territorial - 05 Dec 2022 at 5:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dangere_here Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2022 at 4:52pm
Probably some of the more senior posters on here can explain better but even in my life time, football was exclusively the GAA variety in most of the country outside the traditional cities. The success of the Charlton era in the late 80s early 90s opened up the sport in very rural places where kids were suddenly wearing football jerseys or pretending to be Packie Bonner, which would have been unheard of ten years before in Ballygobackwards. You can argue whether they should have been wearing LOI jerseys instead of Liverpool, but that was the legacy of the Charlton era. Look at the place the chap who scored the winning goal against Germany in 2015 comes from. Back in the day, I doubt anybody there saw a game of association football, let alone played it. 

Edited by dangere_here - 05 Dec 2022 at 4:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shedite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2022 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Each to their own, but I don't think football belongs to the established countries. Every team should have a chance to playat a World Cup.

But "football" is more than just the World Cup Finals which ultimately are designed to find the best international team(s) in the world. Otherwise why have qualification matches to get there and knockout rounds once you have? Surely such a qualfication process should be based on merit and excellence, not some misplaced sympathy for countries which can't cut it otherwise?

So that if eg Africa wants extra representation at a Finals, then their leading teams should be required to prove by their performances in Finals that their second-ranked teans deserve the chance to join them.

And if these Finals are anything to go by, unless Morocco pull a rabbit out of a hat, then CAF will once again have failed to demonstrate why they deserve even five teams in 2026, never mind eight.
Same reason we have qualification for Champions League that isn't just "what leagues got to knockout stages last year". I don't want more European teams in the WC group stages for the same reason I don't want more English/Spanish clubs in Champions League group stage.

Sounds like I'm in the minority here, but I prefer watching Egypt/Nigeria/Colombia in the WC than Sweden/Slovakia/Ukraine. I watch Sweden/Slovakia/Ukraine on Nations League highlights show 6 times a year.

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Euros going to 8 and World Cup to 24 in the 80's allowed Ireland to qualify, you don't think that had a legacy on the popularity on the game here?
This is NOT a dig at the ROI team in particular, but now you mention it, what exactly was their "legacy"?

Did the FAI get a shiny big National stadium of its own out if it? A modern national training centre? Decent LOI stadia fit for the 21st century, hosting a noticeably higher standard of domestic football before sold-out crowds every week? Better facilities and greater participation at grassroots level, consistent with a growing and wealthier population? More and better coaches, with the best of them moving abroad to top clubs in top leagues? The (GB-born and developed) Granny Rulers of the Charlton/McCarthy years since replaced by equivalent standard home-grown players?

Theres' no doubt ROI gets very impressive crowds for 6 or 8 home international matches every year, and takes great numbers of enthusiastic and welcome supporters to away games etc, but realistically, how many of those are "barstoolers", and/or supporters of Celtic/Man Utd/Liverpool etc?

[And before anyone jumps in, I would level pretty much the same criticisms at the IFA/NI, after our glory years of the 1980's etc.]
I'm not old enough to remember but heard a lot of stories about how football in Ireland was looked down on in pre-88. Dunphy had a good emotional rant about it 
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Jack Charlton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2022 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Each to their own, but I don't think football belongs to the established countries. Every team should have a chance to playat a World Cup.

But "football" is more than just the World Cup Finals which ultimately are designed to find the best international team(s) in the world. Otherwise why have qualification matches to get there and knockout rounds once you have? Surely such a qualfication process should be based on merit and excellence, not some misplaced sympathy for countries which can't cut it otherwise?

So that if eg Africa wants extra representation at a Finals, then their leading teams should be required to prove by their performances in Finals that their second-ranked teans deserve the chance to join them.

And if these Finals are anything to go by, unless Morocco pull a rabbit out of a hat, then CAF will once again have failed to demonstrate why they deserve even five teams in 2026, never mind eight.

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Euros going to 8 and World Cup to 24 in the 80's allowed Ireland to qualify, you don't think that had a legacy on the popularity on the game here?
This is NOT a dig at the ROI team in particular, but now you mention it, what exactly was their "legacy"?

Did the FAI get a shiny big National stadium of its own out if it? A modern national training centre? Decent LOI stadia fit for the 21st century, hosting a noticeably higher standard of domestic football before sold-out crowds every week? Better facilities and greater participation at grassroots level, consistent with a growing and wealthier population? More and better coaches, with the best of them moving abroad to top clubs in top leagues? The (GB-born and developed) Granny Rulers of the Charlton/McCarthy years since replaced by equivalent standard home-grown players?

Theres' no doubt ROI gets very impressive crowds for 6 or 8 home international matches every year, and takes great numbers of enthusiastic and welcome supporters to away games etc, but realistically, how many of those are "barstoolers", and/or supporters of Celtic/Man Utd/Liverpool etc?

[And before anyone jumps in, I would level pretty much the same criticisms at the IFA/NI, after our glory years of the 1980's etc.]




Edited by Territorial - 05 Dec 2022 at 3:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr. Snrub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2022 at 2:44pm
Can't wait for the 96 team World Cup in 2036.

Ireland have qualified for their first World Cup in 34 years and face off against Grenada, Solomon Islands & Djibouti in some massive Group S clashes!
"Here's Robbie Keane...... yeeeessss! That is no more than Ireland deserve!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shedite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2022 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

They want to get in countries with large populations
China - 1.5bn
India - 1.4bn
Indonesia - 273m
Pakistan - 220m
Bangladesh - 165m
Ethiopia - 115m
Philippines - 110m
Vietnam - 97m
DR Congo - 86m
Tanzania - 60m
Myanmar - 54m

They'll be expanding the 2030 WC to 200 teams then, so. LOL

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

... an opportunity to build a strong domestic league
Did nothing for domestic leagues in Mexico (1970, 1986), USA (1994), South Africa (2010) or Russia (2018).
While even South Korea/Japan (2002) havent shown great progress domestically, considering how populous, wealthy and well-organised those countries are more generally.
And as for Qatar - every single one of their squad this year plays in the Qatari league, where they earn decent money.. And every one of them was sh*te.

Fact is, even if they spout this argument at regular intervals, I dont' think even the blazers at FIFA believe that hosting a World Cup creates a legacy for countries which don't have a strong footballing culture already.

Instead it's quite simply Infantino "buying" votes from the non-UEFA/CONMEBOL members by offering extra invites to the Big Party every four years.

And along with the 3 team group format, I predict (a ) expansion in 2026 will backfire badly, at least as regards the quality of matches, and (b ) Infantino won't give a stuff.
Each to their own, but I don't think football belongs to the established countries. Every team should have a chance to playat a World Cup. Euros going to 8 and World Cup to 24 in the 80's allowed Ireland to qualify, you don't think that had a legacy on the popularity on the game here?

Edited by Shedite - 05 Dec 2022 at 2:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2022 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

They want to get in countries with large populations
China - 1.5bn
India - 1.4bn
Indonesia - 273m
Pakistan - 220m
Bangladesh - 165m
Ethiopia - 115m
Philippines - 110m
Vietnam - 97m
DR Congo - 86m
Tanzania - 60m
Myanmar - 54m

They'll be expanding the 2030 WC to 200 teams then, so. LOL

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

... an opportunity to build a strong domestic league
Did nothing for domestic leagues in Mexico (1970, 1986), USA (1994), South Africa (2010) or Russia (2018).
While even South Korea/Japan (2002) havent shown great progress domestically, considering how populous, wealthy and well-organised those countries are more generally.
And as for Qatar - every single one of their squad this year plays in the Qatari league, where they earn decent money.. And every one of them was sh*te.

Fact is, even if they spout this argument at regular intervals, I dont' think even the blazers at FIFA believe that hosting a World Cup creates a legacy for countries which don't have a strong footballing culture already.

Instead it's quite simply Infantino "buying" votes from the non-UEFA/CONMEBOL members by offering extra invites to the Big Party every four years.

And along with the 3 team group format, I predict (a ) expansion in 2026 will backfire badly, at least as regards the quality of matches, and (b ) Infantino won't give a stuff.


Edited by Territorial - 05 Dec 2022 at 1:47pm
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Originally posted by notpropaganda73 notpropaganda73 wrote:

what about some ridiculously convoluted "AN Other" spots for all of us around the world not good enough to qualify via our own traditional means, something like that mad playoff competition for the women's world cup that we thankfully avoided by beating Scotland 

that way the likes of New Zealand and Peru can duke it out against Ukraine and Norway for the last couple spots 


This is the way to go. They should get playoff spots not outright places.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote notpropaganda73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2022 at 10:14am
what about some ridiculously convoluted "AN Other" spots for all of us around the world not good enough to qualify via our own traditional means, something like that mad playoff competition for the women's world cup that we thankfully avoided by beating Scotland 

that way the likes of New Zealand and Peru can duke it out against Ukraine and Norway for the last couple spots 
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Yes it's a nonsense, suggesting that New Zealand who are ranked outside the top 100 in the world deserve pretty much a guaranteed spot rather than giving more of a chance to Norway, Sweden or Ukraine is ridiculous really. 

Not to mention that the new format together with the allocation means the likes of Iraq, Panama, Jordan, Uzbekistan and other teams that simply aren't up to the standard are likely to qualify while quality teams in UEFA are left hoping for a decent draw to have any chance of qualification for even a 48 team tournament. 

It's insane what FIFA are doing - and it's all just politics, nothing to do with growing the game.
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It's not even an argument, Europe deserves more spots. 

Japan and South Korea can beat rested Spains and Portugals all they like, one of the worst Irish teams of all time [on paper] was able to do that to Italy six years ago.

It's not that impressive. Most of the Euro teams who didn't progress to the last 16 were eliminated by other European teams, e.g. Switzerland, Belgium, Wales etc. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrendanD88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2022 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by BrendanD88 BrendanD88 wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by BrendanD88 BrendanD88 wrote:

Originally posted by newrynyuk newrynyuk wrote:

So rather than more African and Asian teams embarrassing themselves in an expanded World Cup, you'd rather see more European teams embarrassing themselves in an expanded World Cup instead?

Put it this way; how do you think Ireland would be doing in this World Cup against Morocco or Japan?

UEFA/Europe without doubt should be getting more places for the next World Cup.

This year 8 European teams qualified for the last 16.

In 2018 10 European teams qualified for the last 16.

In 2014 6 European teams qualified for the last 16.

In 2010 6 European teams qualified for the last 16.

In 2006 10 European teams qualified for the last 16.

In 2002 9 European teams qualified for the last 16.

In 1998 10 European teams qualified for the last 16.

That’s over 50% of European teams in the last 16 over the past 24 years with European sides winning 5 out of 6 of those World Cups.
Do you agree with teh same logic for Champions League? 4 English teams get in the last 16 every year, so they should have 8 of the 32 group stage teams? That's what you're saying should happen for WC

Where did I say UEFA should get over 50% of the spots for the World Cup? It’s not unreasonable to suggest more places should be accommodated for European sides, even if that means they have to face play offs against teams from other confederations.  
You said they deserve more than 16, more than 16 is getting close to 24 (which is 50%)

16 out of 48 teams is 33.3%, of course Europe deserve more than that, I didn’t say they deserve 24 spots.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shedite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2022 at 9:37pm
Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Originally posted by darmack darmack wrote:

Are so many European countries getting into the last 16 because there are more of them?

Was thinking that Uefa haven't gotten as many extra place as other federations.
So many south American counries it will be like a Copa America.
Maybe an extra 2 places or however many could have been up for grabs in an intercontinental game, or if your in a certain position by the end of qualifying in the zone goes down to fifa rankings.

Or they could have just left it the same.

ConfederationEligible FIFA membersSpots in 2026 finals
(including hosts and intercontinental playoff spots)
Percentage of members with spots in finalsSpots in 2022 finals
(excluding hosts, including intercontinental playoff spots)
Change in percentage of slot allocation
AFC46+1[a]8+1317.4%+0.7%4.577.8%+7.4%
CAF549+1316.7%+0.6%580.0%+6.7%
CONCACAF (hosts)356+13 (+13)17.1%+1.0% (+1.0%)3.571.4%+9.5% (+9.5%)
CONMEBOL106+1360.0%+3.3%4.533.3%+7.4%
OFC111+139.1%+3.0%0.5100%+66.7%
UEFA551629.1%1323.1%
Total211+14822.7%31 + 1 (hosts)50%

Simple answer - no. Yet again, even taking it as a percentage of qualifiers, Europe has over performed compared to everyone else. And that's even with a couple of big hitters messing up and of course the European champions not even qualifying. 

Number of qualifiers for the last 16 for each confederation, as a percentage of tournament qualification spots:

Europe 8 from 13 61.5%
S America 2 from 4 50%
Asia 3 from 6 50%
Africa 2 from 5 40%
N America 1 from 4 25% 

Even allowing for the need to spread the places around the world Europe should really have 20 qualification places in a 48 team tournament. That would still allow all the other confederations to get additional places compared to now while at the same time hopefully preventing substandard North American, Oceania and Asian teams from qualifying, which will almost certainly happen in 2026. If three or four of the 20 are given through intercontinental playoffs, then fair enough. But only having a third of the qualifiers for 2026 being from UEFA devalues the tournament sadly.

In better news it looks like they're moving towards 12 groups of 4 next time, rather than the ridiculous 16 groups of 3 idea that was in place until now. That mistake will likely be corrected next year now by FIFA.



20 teams this time would have got in 6 of.... Italy, Sweden, Ukraine, North Macedonia, Austria, Scotland, Czech, and Turkey. Bar Italy, I don't think any of the teams would bring anything more to the tournament than Egypt, Nigeria, Peru, New Zealand etc. None of those teams are getting to QF's anyway, so I prefer washing teams in the WC that I don't see every Nation League highlights show. 

I hate going to 48 teams, but I'd hate it more if it ends up being basically all the Euros teams.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shedite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2022 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by Bandwagon Bandwagon wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

The point of expanding the tournament is to let more teams their chance of getting in, like China had in 2014, North Korea in 2010, Trinidad in 2006 etc. Expanding it isn't about changing who wins it, the best team will still win.

The challenge of the World Cup is to beat teams with all different styles of football, so if they're going to 48 (which I don't agree with), they're doing it the right way IMO.


Expanding it is purely for money reasons. It has nothing to do with improving the game or the tournament, if anything it'll do the opposite.

With the new allocations its clear they're trying more or less assure the largest populated countries qualify every time.
Yeah they're hoping the countries with the biggest Tv audience is going to get in. They want to get in countries with large populations and an opportunity to build a strong domestic league
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shedite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2022 at 9:32pm
Originally posted by BrendanD88 BrendanD88 wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by BrendanD88 BrendanD88 wrote:

Originally posted by newrynyuk newrynyuk wrote:

So rather than more African and Asian teams embarrassing themselves in an expanded World Cup, you'd rather see more European teams embarrassing themselves in an expanded World Cup instead?

Put it this way; how do you think Ireland would be doing in this World Cup against Morocco or Japan?

UEFA/Europe without doubt should be getting more places for the next World Cup.

This year 8 European teams qualified for the last 16.

In 2018 10 European teams qualified for the last 16.

In 2014 6 European teams qualified for the last 16.

In 2010 6 European teams qualified for the last 16.

In 2006 10 European teams qualified for the last 16.

In 2002 9 European teams qualified for the last 16.

In 1998 10 European teams qualified for the last 16.

That’s over 50% of European teams in the last 16 over the past 24 years with European sides winning 5 out of 6 of those World Cups.
Do you agree with teh same logic for Champions League? 4 English teams get in the last 16 every year, so they should have 8 of the 32 group stage teams? That's what you're saying should happen for WC

Where did I say UEFA should get over 50% of the spots for the World Cup? It’s not unreasonable to suggest more places should be accommodated for European sides, even if that means they have to face play offs against teams from other confederations.  
You said they deserve more than 16, more than 16 is getting close to 24 (which is 50%)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bandwagon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2022 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

The point of expanding the tournament is to let more teams their chance of getting in, like China had in 2014, North Korea in 2010, Trinidad in 2006 etc. Expanding it isn't about changing who wins it, the best team will still win.

The challenge of the World Cup is to beat teams with all different styles of football, so if they're going to 48 (which I don't agree with), they're doing it the right way IMO.


Expanding it is purely for money reasons. It has nothing to do with improving the game or the tournament, if anything it'll do the opposite.

With the new allocations its clear they're trying more or less assure the largest populated countries qualify every time.
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