| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
eireland 
Ray Houghton
Joined: 12 Feb 2016
Status: Online
Points: 4204
|
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote  Reply
 Topic: Russian Invasion of Ukraine
Posted: 2 minutes ago at 9:28pm |
|
There are plenty of articles on the matter but you should do your research. I'm happy to allow you play the useful idiot for Russia. You clearly enjoy the role so I won't end your fantasy.
|
 |
Het-field
Roy Keane
By Appointment to His Majesty The King
Joined: 08 Mar 2016
Status: Online
Points: 10645
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 23 minutes ago at 9:07pm |
 Mush Cassidys Donkey wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
thay may be the case but the notion thay America had zero influence in Ukraine pre invasion is wrong |
And yet it doesn’t explain, or justify what has happened in the meantime. There is influence and there is influence. Russia wasn’t even meddling, it was exercising indirect control and went rogue when it lost that indirect control. |
Im not justifying it. And Im glad you can accept the US had a certain influence. We wont biother quantifying influence. However it does all tie into the counter narrative that Ukraine even up to this point was a Free hit of a bet for the military complex in the States. I do think their is a notion in the US of wiping Russias power off the map and they didnt expect Russia to be as resilient or aggressive in the face of US led might. So all they can do now is double down on the approach and make more arms and profit from them. |
I dont know tbh. I do think on the face of it US was trying to steer Ukraine Westwards. Many MSM articles on the subject. Less so mainstream articles on more nefarious activities by the CIA. But they are there. So to quantify interference, they were both at it, but the Russians couldve Here is the post. You say “we won’t bother quantifying influence”. Why so? Surely it is necessary to discuss degrees and levels of involvement? |
Thats fine I do rememeber it , and I just thought it was one of those pointless abstract elements which will just go around in circles. But I really wasnt trying to run away from it. If you want We can have a go off it |
There is a world of difference between the type of control the Kremlin was exerting over Ukraine in 2013, and any level of US involvement. One was dictating foreign policy in default of the will of the public. This default caused mass protests, and Russia responded by trying to annex parts of Ukraine, as it no longer had indirect control of the incumbents of Ukrainian power. A few CIA intelligence agents (invited in on the back of Russian invasion), and some comments by US politicians is a long way from what Russia was doing. And how Russia responded once the population ousted Yanukovich is telling about how little they respect democracy, or Ukrainian agency. |
I dont know tbh. I do think on the face of it US was trying to steer Ukraine Westwards. Many MSM articles on the subject. Less so mainstream articles on more nefarious activities by the CIA. But they are there. So to quantify interference, they were both at it, but the Russians arguably were worse?
Just to add a bit of meat
|
That’s not really a question. The Russians were totally worse. An easy example is Belarus, which geographically would be advantageous to control. The truth is, thanks to Lukashenko they don’t have to worry. Why couldn’t Russia accept the democratic will of the people in 2013 and let them live peacefully, as was effectively mandated by Budapest.
And the Ted Galen Carpenter article doesn’t add to what we have discussed already. Although I found it amusing he self references to make his point. I wonder if the Donkey will be in to criticise the use of an article from a think tank that was heavily linked to the Koch brothers, conservative america, and right wing libertarianism.
|
I'm here Tory Boy. You already know my answer.
Furthermore, the Belarus question is interesting. Majority of the population speaks and aligns themselves with Putin. My brother lives in Minsk for the last 10 years or so and even during the riots which he attended ,the numbers that attended where nowhere near what was reported by Western media. |
No I don’t know your answer. Your type of politics is more confused than Scooby Do.
|
|
Mush Cassidys Donkey
Kevin Kilbane
Joined: 16 Feb 2024
Status: Online
Points: 357
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 25 minutes ago at 9:05pm |
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
thay may be the case but the notion thay America had zero influence in Ukraine pre invasion is wrong |
And yet it doesn’t explain, or justify what has happened in the meantime. There is influence and there is influence. Russia wasn’t even meddling, it was exercising indirect control and went rogue when it lost that indirect control. |
Im not justifying it. And Im glad you can accept the US had a certain influence. We wont biother quantifying influence. However it does all tie into the counter narrative that Ukraine even up to this point was a Free hit of a bet for the military complex in the States. I do think their is a notion in the US of wiping Russias power off the map and they didnt expect Russia to be as resilient or aggressive in the face of US led might. So all they can do now is double down on the approach and make more arms and profit from them. |
I dont know tbh. I do think on the face of it US was trying to steer Ukraine Westwards. Many MSM articles on the subject. Less so mainstream articles on more nefarious activities by the CIA. But they are there. So to quantify interference, they were both at it, but the Russians couldve Here is the post. You say “we won’t bother quantifying influence”. Why so? Surely it is necessary to discuss degrees and levels of involvement? |
Thats fine I do rememeber it , and I just thought it was one of those pointless abstract elements which will just go around in circles. But I really wasnt trying to run away from it. If you want We can have a go off it |
There is a world of difference between the type of control the Kremlin was exerting over Ukraine in 2013, and any level of US involvement. One was dictating foreign policy in default of the will of the public. This default caused mass protests, and Russia responded by trying to annex parts of Ukraine, as it no longer had indirect control of the incumbents of Ukrainian power. A few CIA intelligence agents (invited in on the back of Russian invasion), and some comments by US politicians is a long way from what Russia was doing. And how Russia responded once the population ousted Yanukovich is telling about how little they respect democracy, or Ukrainian agency. |
I dont know tbh. I do think on the face of it US was trying to steer Ukraine Westwards. Many MSM articles on the subject. Less so mainstream articles on more nefarious activities by the CIA. But they are there. So to quantify interference, they were both at it, but the Russians arguably were worse?
Just to add a bit of meat
|
That’s not really a question. The Russians were totally worse. An easy example is Belarus, which geographically would be advantageous to control. The truth is, thanks to Lukashenko they don’t have to worry. Why couldn’t Russia accept the democratic will of the people in 2013 and let them live peacefully, as was effectively mandated by Budapest.
And the Ted Galen Carpenter article doesn’t add to what we have discussed already. Although I found it amusing he self references to make his point. I wonder if the Donkey will be in to criticise the use of an article from a think tank that was heavily linked to the Koch brothers, conservative america, and right wing libertarianism.
|
I'm here Tory Boy. You already know my answer.
Furthermore, the Belarus question is interesting. Majority of the population speaks and aligns themselves with Putin. My brother lives in Minsk for the last 10 years or so and even during the riots which he attended ,the numbers that attended where nowhere near what was reported by Western media.
|
|
OohAah...
Ray Houghton
Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 3400
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 59 minutes ago at 8:31pm |
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Still waiting Eire. any resource to back up your claim that the russian economy is on a downard spiral?
and the oil wasnt about Greece, it was that it was about countries still buying Russian Oil |
Inflation at nearly 8%, interest rates at 16%, value of their currency lower, using money from their wealth funds to cover the budget. Increased military spending which temporarily booms the economy. Foreign investors gone, foreign asset's confiscated. Shortage of labour to fill vacant jobs due to low immigration, working aged men dying or fighting in Ukraine or leaving the country. Aging population demographic which will be worse after the war.
Oil and gas exports dropping. Lost their most valuable export market the EU Probably permanently. The list goes on.
But you read some headline that a country in a war economy has a growing GDP 😂
Prove me wrong. But again that would involve you needing an understanding of economics beyond GDP. |
again I did ask for any sort of link for proof. Not Your opinion |
You're not able to Google what interest rates, inflation etc is in Russia. Do your own research before spouting sh*te about the Russian economy. It's far from in a good place and you're spreading misinformation by repeating that. |
So not one article to back your point
|
|
Het-field
Roy Keane
By Appointment to His Majesty The King
Joined: 08 Mar 2016
Status: Online
Points: 10645
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 2 hours 34 minutes ago at 6:56pm |
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
thay may be the case but the notion thay America had zero influence in Ukraine pre invasion is wrong |
And yet it doesn’t explain, or justify what has happened in the meantime. There is influence and there is influence. Russia wasn’t even meddling, it was exercising indirect control and went rogue when it lost that indirect control. |
Im not justifying it. And Im glad you can accept the US had a certain influence. We wont biother quantifying influence. However it does all tie into the counter narrative that Ukraine even up to this point was a Free hit of a bet for the military complex in the States. I do think their is a notion in the US of wiping Russias power off the map and they didnt expect Russia to be as resilient or aggressive in the face of US led might. So all they can do now is double down on the approach and make more arms and profit from them. |
I dont know tbh. I do think on the face of it US was trying to steer Ukraine Westwards. Many MSM articles on the subject. Less so mainstream articles on more nefarious activities by the CIA. But they are there. So to quantify interference, they were both at it, but the Russians couldve Here is the post. You say “we won’t bother quantifying influence”. Why so? Surely it is necessary to discuss degrees and levels of involvement? |
Thats fine I do rememeber it , and I just thought it was one of those pointless abstract elements which will just go around in circles. But I really wasnt trying to run away from it. If you want We can have a go off it |
There is a world of difference between the type of control the Kremlin was exerting over Ukraine in 2013, and any level of US involvement. One was dictating foreign policy in default of the will of the public. This default caused mass protests, and Russia responded by trying to annex parts of Ukraine, as it no longer had indirect control of the incumbents of Ukrainian power. A few CIA intelligence agents (invited in on the back of Russian invasion), and some comments by US politicians is a long way from what Russia was doing. And how Russia responded once the population ousted Yanukovich is telling about how little they respect democracy, or Ukrainian agency. |
I dont know tbh. I do think on the face of it US was trying to steer Ukraine Westwards. Many MSM articles on the subject. Less so mainstream articles on more nefarious activities by the CIA. But they are there. So to quantify interference, they were both at it, but the Russians arguably were worse?
Just to add a bit of meat
|
That’s not really a question. The Russians were totally worse. An easy example is Belarus, which geographically would be advantageous to control. The truth is, thanks to Lukashenko they don’t have to worry. Why couldn’t Russia accept the democratic will of the people in 2013 and let them live peacefully, as was effectively mandated by Budapest.
And the Ted Galen Carpenter article doesn’t add to what we have discussed already. Although I found it amusing he self references to make his point. I wonder if the Donkey will be in to criticise the use of an article from a think tank that was heavily linked to the Koch brothers, conservative america, and right wing libertarianism.
Edited by Het-field - 2 hours 26 minutes ago at 7:04pm
|
|
irishmufc
Robbie Keane
I love Vulvas
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Location: Dublin
Status: Offline
Points: 25085
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 2 hours 60 minutes ago at 6:30pm |
This focking thread 
|
|
Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
|
|
eireland
Ray Houghton
Joined: 12 Feb 2016
Status: Online
Points: 4204
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 3 hours 1 minutes ago at 6:29pm |
OohAah... wrote:
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Still waiting Eire. any resource to back up your claim that the russian economy is on a downard spiral?
and the oil wasnt about Greece, it was that it was about countries still buying Russian Oil |
Inflation at nearly 8%, interest rates at 16%, value of their currency lower, using money from their wealth funds to cover the budget. Increased military spending which temporarily booms the economy. Foreign investors gone, foreign asset's confiscated. Shortage of labour to fill vacant jobs due to low immigration, working aged men dying or fighting in Ukraine or leaving the country. Aging population demographic which will be worse after the war.
Oil and gas exports dropping. Lost their most valuable export market the EU Probably permanently. The list goes on.
But you read some headline that a country in a war economy has a growing GDP 😂
Prove me wrong. But again that would involve you needing an understanding of economics beyond GDP. |
again I did ask for any sort of link for proof. Not Your opinion |
You're not able to Google what interest rates, inflation etc is in Russia. Do your own research before spouting sh*te about the Russian economy. It's far from in a good place and you're spreading misinformation by repeating that.
|
|
OohAah...
Ray Houghton
Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 3400
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 4 hours 45 minutes ago at 4:45pm |
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
thay may be the case but the notion thay America had zero influence in Ukraine pre invasion is wrong |
And yet it doesn’t explain, or justify what has happened in the meantime. There is influence and there is influence. Russia wasn’t even meddling, it was exercising indirect control and went rogue when it lost that indirect control. |
Im not justifying it. And Im glad you can accept the US had a certain influence. We wont biother quantifying influence. However it does all tie into the counter narrative that Ukraine even up to this point was a Free hit of a bet for the military complex in the States. I do think their is a notion in the US of wiping Russias power off the map and they didnt expect Russia to be as resilient or aggressive in the face of US led might. So all they can do now is double down on the approach and make more arms and profit from them. |
I dont know tbh. I do think on the face of it US was trying to steer Ukraine Westwards. Many MSM articles on the subject. Less so mainstream articles on more nefarious activities by the CIA. But they are there. So to quantify interference, they were both at it, but the Russians couldve Here is the post. You say “we won’t bother quantifying influence”. Why so? Surely it is necessary to discuss degrees and levels of involvement? |
Thats fine I do rememeber it , and I just thought it was one of those pointless abstract elements which will just go around in circles. But I really wasnt trying to run away from it. If you want We can have a go off it |
There is a world of difference between the type of control the Kremlin was exerting over Ukraine in 2013, and any level of US involvement. One was dictating foreign policy in default of the will of the public. This default caused mass protests, and Russia responded by trying to annex parts of Ukraine, as it no longer had indirect control of the incumbents of Ukrainian power. A few CIA intelligence agents (invited in on the back of Russian invasion), and some comments by US politicians is a long way from what Russia was doing. And how Russia responded once the population ousted Yanukovich is telling about how little they respect democracy, or Ukrainian agency. |
I dont know tbh. I do think on the face of it US was trying to steer Ukraine Westwards. Many MSM articles on the subject. Less so mainstream articles on more nefarious activities by the CIA. But they are there. So to quantify interference, they were both at it, but the Russians arguably were worse?
Just to add a bit of meat
Edited by OohAah... - 4 hours 13 minutes ago at 5:17pm
|
|
OohAah...
Ray Houghton
Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 3400
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 4 hours 48 minutes ago at 4:42pm |
eireland wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Still waiting Eire. any resource to back up your claim that the russian economy is on a downard spiral?
and the oil wasnt about Greece, it was that it was about countries still buying Russian Oil |
Inflation at nearly 8%, interest rates at 16%, value of their currency lower, using money from their wealth funds to cover the budget. Increased military spending which temporarily booms the economy. Foreign investors gone, foreign asset's confiscated. Shortage of labour to fill vacant jobs due to low immigration, working aged men dying or fighting in Ukraine or leaving the country. Aging population demographic which will be worse after the war.
Oil and gas exports dropping. Lost their most valuable export market the EU Probably permanently. The list goes on.
But you read some headline that a country in a war economy has a growing GDP 😂
Prove me wrong. But again that would involve you needing an understanding of economics beyond GDP. |
again I did ask for any sort of link for proof. Not Your opinion
|
|
Het-field
Roy Keane
By Appointment to His Majesty The King
Joined: 08 Mar 2016
Status: Online
Points: 10645
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 4 hours 52 minutes ago at 4:38pm |
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
thay may be the case but the notion thay America had zero influence in Ukraine pre invasion is wrong |
And yet it doesn’t explain, or justify what has happened in the meantime. There is influence and there is influence. Russia wasn’t even meddling, it was exercising indirect control and went rogue when it lost that indirect control. |
Im not justifying it. And Im glad you can accept the US had a certain influence. We wont biother quantifying influence. However it does all tie into the counter narrative that Ukraine even up to this point was a Free hit of a bet for the military complex in the States. I do think their is a notion in the US of wiping Russias power off the map and they didnt expect Russia to be as resilient or aggressive in the face of US led might. So all they can do now is double down on the approach and make more arms and profit from them. |
Here is the post. You say “we won’t bother quantifying influence”. Why so? Surely it is necessary to discuss degrees and levels of involvement? |
Thats fine I do rememeber it , and I just thought it was one of those pointless abstract elements which will just go around in circles. But I really wasnt trying to run away from it. If you want We can have a go off it |
There is a world of difference between the type of control the Kremlin was exerting over Ukraine in 2013, and any level of US involvement. One was dictating foreign policy in default of the will of the public. This default caused mass protests, and Russia responded by trying to annex parts of Ukraine, as it no longer had indirect control of the incumbents of Ukrainian power. A few CIA intelligence agents (invited in on the back of Russian invasion), and some comments by US politicians is a long way from what Russia was doing. And how Russia responded once the population ousted Yanukovich is telling about how little they respect democracy, or Ukrainian agency.
|
|
Mush Cassidys Donkey
Kevin Kilbane
Joined: 16 Feb 2024
Status: Online
Points: 357
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 4 hours 55 minutes ago at 4:35pm |
f**k sake
|
|
eireland
Ray Houghton
Joined: 12 Feb 2016
Status: Online
Points: 4204
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 5 hours 2 minutes ago at 4:28pm |
OohAah... wrote:
Still waiting Eire. any resource to back up your claim that the russian economy is on a downard spiral?
and the oil wasnt about Greece, it was that it was about countries still buying Russian Oil |
Inflation at nearly 8%, interest rates at 16%, value of their currency lower, using money from their wealth funds to cover the budget. Increased military spending which temporarily booms the economy. Foreign investors gone, foreign asset's confiscated. Shortage of labour to fill vacant jobs due to low immigration, working aged men dying or fighting in Ukraine or leaving the country. Aging population demographic which will be worse after the war.
Oil and gas exports dropping. Lost their most valuable export market the EU Probably permanently. The list goes on.
But you read some headline that a country in a war economy has a growing GDP 😂
Prove me wrong. But again that would involve you needing an understanding of economics beyond GDP.
|
|
OohAah...
Ray Houghton
Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 3400
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 5 hours 34 minutes ago at 3:56pm |
Still waiting Eire. any resource to back up your claim that the russian economy is on a downard spiral?
and the oil wasnt about Greece, it was that it was about countries still buying Russian Oil
|
|
OohAah...
Ray Houghton
Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 3400
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 5 hours 36 minutes ago at 3:54pm |
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
thay may be the case but the notion thay America had zero influence in Ukraine pre invasion is wrong |
And yet it doesn’t explain, or justify what has happened in the meantime. There is influence and there is influence. Russia wasn’t even meddling, it was exercising indirect control and went rogue when it lost that indirect control. |
Im not justifying it. And Im glad you can accept the US had a certain influence. We wont biother quantifying influence. However it does all tie into the counter narrative that Ukraine even up to this point was a Free hit of a bet for the military complex in the States. I do think their is a notion in the US of wiping Russias power off the map and they didnt expect Russia to be as resilient or aggressive in the face of US led might. So all they can do now is double down on the approach and make more arms and profit from them. |
Here is the post. You say “we won’t bother quantifying influence”. Why so? Surely it is necessary to discuss degrees and levels of involvement? |
Thats fine I do rememeber it , and I just thought it was one of those pointless abstract elements which will just go around in circles. But I really wasnt trying to run away from it. If you want We can have a go off it
|
|
Het-field
Roy Keane
By Appointment to His Majesty The King
Joined: 08 Mar 2016
Status: Online
Points: 10645
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 5 hours 39 minutes ago at 3:51pm |
OohAah... wrote:
Het-field wrote:
OohAah... wrote:
thay may be the case but the notion thay America had zero influence in Ukraine pre invasion is wrong |
And yet it doesn’t explain, or justify what has happened in the meantime. There is influence and there is influence. Russia wasn’t even meddling, it was exercising indirect control and went rogue when it lost that indirect control. |
Im not justifying it. And Im glad you can accept the US had a certain influence. We wont biother quantifying influence. However it does all tie into the counter narrative that Ukraine even up to this point was a Free hit of a bet for the military complex in the States. I do think their is a notion in the US of wiping Russias power off the map and they didnt expect Russia to be as resilient or aggressive in the face of US led might. So all they can do now is double down on the approach and make more arms and profit from them. |
Here is the post. You say “we won’t bother quantifying influence”. Why so? Surely it is necessary to discuss degrees and levels of involvement?
|
|
OohAah...
Ray Houghton
Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 3400
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 8 hours 34 minutes ago at 12:56pm |
|
Edited by OohAah... - 8 hours 33 minutes ago at 12:57pm
|
|
Het-field
Roy Keane
By Appointment to His Majesty The King
Joined: 08 Mar 2016
Status: Online
Points: 10645
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 9 hours 10 minutes ago at 12:20pm |
OohAah... wrote:
I am more waiting on eire tbh. Was very quick to tell me I was uneducated about the Russian Economy, so I simply asked for a link to educate myself. I did in the meantime share 2 articles. Had a cup of coffee, got work done. |
Sorry OohAah, that wasn’t directed at you to be fair.
It was directed at the clown.
|
|
OohAah...
Ray Houghton
Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 3400
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 9 hours 16 minutes ago at 12:14pm |
|
I am more waiting on eire tbh. Was very quick to tell me I was uneducated about the Russian Economy, so I simply asked for a link to educate myself. I did in the meantime share 2 articles. Had a cup of coffee, got work done.
|
|
Tweet
