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The Decline of the EPL
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Id make one more point about it being a bad league this year though: use Man utd as a barometer. It just occurred to me that Man Utd, who many have gleefully pointed out are terrible, can go three points off top four tonight having played Liverpool twice. So that's likely level on points once Chelsea lose to Liverpool again, provided they win those games.

So, if people are only saying the league is poor this season to diminish Liverpool and their achievements, it logically follows that United, and the utter joke they are which has been covered to death on that thread, should be nowhere near a champions League spot. 


Edited by OnTheOneRoad - 22 Jan 2020 at 6:09pm
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Originally posted by OnTheOneRoad OnTheOneRoad wrote:

Id make one more point about it being a bad league this year though: use Man utd as a barometer. It just occurred to me that Man Utd, who many have gleefully pointed out are terrible, can go three points off top four tonight having played Liverpool twice. So that's likely level on points once Chelsea lose to Liverpool again, provided they win those games.

So, if people are only saying the league is poor this season to diminish Liverpool and their achievements, it logically follows that United, and the utter joke they are which has been covered to death on that thread, should be nowhere near a champions League spot. 

In terms of the CL spot, I remember saying at the start of the season that it could be the lowest points tally ever for that spot and it would be an absolute dog fight between numerous sides. Simply put, there really isn't that much between teams from 5th down to 12th or so. In terms of United it wouldn't at all surprise me if they end up finishing 9th or 10th. Their squad is appalling and with more injuries as the season wears on I can see them tailing off in the league.

I don't know why people think any of that adds up to the league being much weaker overall though. There are countless angles and nuances in such a discussion. The big thing here imo is that people are simply try to knock down Liverpools results this season, because basically there is absolutely nothing else in general to knock them with.
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Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Originally posted by OnTheOneRoad OnTheOneRoad wrote:

Id make one more point about it being a bad league this year though: use Man utd as a barometer. It just occurred to me that Man Utd, who many have gleefully pointed out are terrible, can go three points off top four tonight having played Liverpool twice. So that's likely level on points once Chelsea lose to Liverpool again, provided they win those games.

So, if people are only saying the league is poor this season to diminish Liverpool and their achievements, it logically follows that United, and the utter joke they are which has been covered to death on that thread, should be nowhere near a champions League spot. 

In terms of the CL spot, I remember saying at the start of the season that it could be the lowest points tally ever for that spot and it would be an absolute dog fight between numerous sides. Simply put, there really isn't that much between teams from 5th down to 12th or so. In terms of United it wouldn't at all surprise me if they end up finishing 9th or 10th. Their squad is appalling and with more injuries as the season wears on I can see them tailing off in the league.

I don't know why people think any of that adds up to the league being much weaker overall though. There are countless angles and nuances in such a discussion. The big thing here imo is that people are simply try to knock down Liverpools results this season, because basically there is absolutely nothing else in general to knock them with.

It might not surprise you if they finish 9th or 10th, it wouldnt surprise me either, they are atrocious, but the fact remains they're 5th now, and the discussion is about what the league looks like in terms of quality now. Everyone's played everyone at least once, so in that, the table cannot lie very much. Youve said united's squad is appalling, and there really isn't that much between 5th and 12th. So the teams between 5th and 12th don't have much between them and an appalling squad. Chelsea havent separated themselves from that pack either. That leaves City, who have dropped 21 points in just over half a season compared to 14 all of the previous season, and Leicester, a typically mid-table team that have maximised what they've got.

What makes it a good league this year? Is it the competitiveness outside of Liverpool? The NI Premiership is very competitive this year, and if liverpool played in that, they wouldnt drop a single point and would be odds-on not to concede a goal all year either. If its about the quality of opponents, you need only look at the City statistic in the previous paragraph and how Spurs are getting on to see a comparison of the quality to years previous. Arsenal are 11 points worse off than in January last year. United are 4 worse off, but with a better chance of Champions League than they previously had. Chelsea are 4 worse off, and they're having what's considered a good season.

My own personal opinion is that Liverpool are an excellent side, the best in the world at this moment, and would have had enough with this current incarnation to win comfortably a majority of the PL seasons gone by that i can remember. However, their record being 21-1-0 in the league is not normal, no matter how good they are, and owes itself at least in part to the dearth of other good teams in the league this year. Therefore, and given how the other teams with the most resources are performing, it's a poor league IMO.
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I judge a leagues quality on how good the teams are performing in Europe

For years La Liga was the best about simply because their big two dominated the CL, with Atletico getting to the odd final and their other teams doing well in the Europa league

The EPL finally got it’s act together in Europe after years of underachieving 

No one was saying “ahh but look at how far Barca and Real are ahead of the rest in that league” when it was rightfully being labelled the best in the world, 
“Celta vigo are only 6 points off top 4 midway through this season therefore it’s a poor league”


Edited by Roberto Baggio - 22 Jan 2020 at 7:05pm
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@Ontheoneroad, it's clear in that in the past 2 years that there record isn't that far off normal, Liverpool finished second last season with 97 points. The season before City got 100 points. So 4 teams in the past 3 seasons have gotten to the 100 point marker. 

I think it was Guardiolas last season at Barca where Mourinhos Real pipped them and both had around the 100 point marker iirc. Was that a terrible league? When United won the treble in 1999 with 79 points or something, was that a far higher standard league just because the winning tally was lower? United only lost 3 games in 99 iirc, Arsenal lost 0 games in '04, Liverpool lost just 2 games in '09 finishing 2nd iirc - were all of those leagues seasons of a low standard because of these results?

The whole thing is weird. It's clear that the PL is of a massively high standard with the CL and EL winners there, a huge amount of the best players and most importantly a huge amount of the best coaches. I'll say it again, this whole conversation is based on finding something, anything to knock this Liverpool side with.

On United, when people say they are an atrocious side, finishing 10th or whatever is deemed atrocious equal to their aspirations. If Southampton finish top 6, that us exceptional by their standards. Don't take individual commentary around sides like United as anything to do with the overall standard of a league.


Edited by Hans Moleman - 22 Jan 2020 at 7:11pm
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Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

@Ontheoneroad, it's clear in that in the past 2 years that there record isn't that far off normal, Liverpool finished second last season with 97 points. The season before City got 100 points. So 4 teams in the past 3 seasons have gotten to the 100 point marker. 

I think it was Guardiolas last season at Barca where Mourinhos Real pipped them and both had around the 100 point marker iirc. Was that a terrible league? When United won the treble in 1999 with 79 points or something, was that a far higher standard league just because the winning tally was lower? United only lost 3 games in 99 iirc, Arsenal lost 0 games in '04, Liverpool lost just 2 games in '09 finishing 2nd iirc - were all of those leagues seasons of a low standard because of these results?

The whole thing is weird. It's clear that the PL is of a massively high standard with the CL and EL winners there, a huge amount of the best players and most importantly a huge amount of the best coaches. I'll say it again, this whole conversation is based on finding something, anything to knock this Liverpool side with.

On United, when people say they are an atrocious side, finishing 10th or whatever is deemed atrocious equal to their aspirations. If Southampton finish top 6, that us exceptional by their standards. Don't take individual commentary around sides like United as anything to do with the overall standard of a league.
I disagree with this bit, as I heard the same two years ago when City had the league won by Xmas with people saying it couldn’t be that good a league if a bad United team under Mourinho are second in it 
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I agree, there was talk of this over the last 2 years, but there wasn't nearly the same level as now. It's all just bizarre stuff tbh. It's obvious that the PL is at a far higher standard than say 2014 when Liverpool were pipped by City to the title. A season where with 7/8 matches left any of 4 teams had a good chance of winning the title. The standard of the PL has moved on a huge amount in that time.
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Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

@Ontheoneroad, it's clear in that in the past 2 years that there record isn't that far off normal, Liverpool finished second last season with 97 points. The season before City got 100 points. So 4 teams in the past 3 seasons have gotten to the 100 point marker. 

I think it was Guardiolas last season at Barca where Mourinhos Real pipped them and both had around the 100 point marker iirc. Was that a terrible league? When United won the treble in 1999 with 79 points or something, was that a far higher standard league just because the winning tally was lower? United only lost 3 games in 99 iirc, Arsenal lost 0 games in '04, Liverpool lost just 2 games in '09 finishing 2nd iirc - were all of those leagues seasons of a low standard because of these results?

The whole thing is weird. It's clear that the PL is of a massively high standard with the CL and EL winners there, a huge amount of the best players and most importantly a huge amount of the best coaches. I'll say it again, this whole conversation is based on finding something, anything to knock this Liverpool side with.

On United, when people say they are an atrocious side, finishing 10th or whatever is deemed atrocious equal to their aspirations. If Southampton finish top 6, that us exceptional by their standards. Don't take individual commentary around sides like United as anything to do with the overall standard of a league.

I don't think that what you mention in the last two seasons is normal either. Last season in particular, many drew attention to the gulf in the league between top 2 and the rest, and the fact that Mourinho's United finished 2nd the year previous says it all about how good the league was that year. 

If we judge a team versus what their aspirations were, rather than taking United individually as a comment on the state of the league, Leicester and Wolves are exceeding theirs out of the top 6, Chelsea are at par, United and City are underperforming. And that's not to mention how last year's CL finalists Spurs are getting on, and Arsenal too. I think its a fair comment to say that the teams you would expect to challenge Liverpool, based on their squads and spend, are underperforming on the whole.

I can't speak for the Real madrid 100-point season as i didnt watch much of it, but the fact that those top two have historically negotiated their TV deals compared to the raw deal the other 18 get, and that Valencia were some 30 points back in 3rd leads me to believe the overall quality was poor. Arsenal in '04, Liverpool in '09 and United in '99 had to buy and sell more shrewdly, its a totally different league now. If your 50 million signing doesn't settle in after a few months, buy another one and go again. In January 2018, on the way to City's first 100-point season, they were being told to spend 60 million on Mahrez in order to cope with the fixture pile-up! That is insane and incomparable to those Arsenal, Liverpool and United sides. 

That's not to say that liverpool havent bought excellently, they have, but their squad still cost about 300 million or so more than most PL teams. The only teams that have similarly expensive squads (City, United) are underperforming compared to aspiration, and expectation in City's sense.  

So, the teams that realistically can win the league are not doing as well as in previous years, apart from Liverpool. That, to me, signals a poor league. Teams like Everton might be able to get managers like Ancelotti in now and buy players like Moise Kean, but the top teams are stockpiling the best players in the world, breaking transfer records left right and centre, so for me it's a question of scale.

Liverpool proved themselves as a great team by winning the CL last year more than the PL this year in my opinion.
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With the news of Man city's banning from Europe does this have implications for the EPL?
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Originally posted by Double Maxim Double Maxim wrote:

With the news of Man city's banning from Europe does this have implications for the EPL?
Yes, it proves that money cant buy you the Champions League.
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Originally posted by Gary McKay Gary McKay wrote:

Originally posted by Double Maxim Double Maxim wrote:

With the news of Man city's banning from Europe does this have implications for the EPL?
Yes, it proves that money cant buy you the Champions League.
Money buys everything in football and has for a long time; it is just how well you spend it that matters.
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Originally posted by Double Maxim Double Maxim wrote:

With the news of Man city's banning from Europe does this have implications for the EPL?

Project Longbow FC should be relegated to the 4th tier and one extra automatic promotion spot should be made available in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th tier at the end of this season to backfill their spot.
The Premier League should also strip them of their 4 Premier League titles with 2 awarded to Man United and 2 awarded to Liverpool FC.
Neither of these things will actually happen as Project Longbow FC have more lawyers than UEFA and Donald Trump combined and will slither out of the 2 year European ban also.
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Originally posted by Mulvanystrasse Mulvanystrasse wrote:

Originally posted by Double Maxim Double Maxim wrote:

With the news of Man city's banning from Europe does this have implications for the EPL?

Project Longbow FC should be relegated to the 4th tier and one extra automatic promotion spot should be made available in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th tier at the end of this season to backfill their spot.
The Premier League should also strip them of their 4 Premier League titles with 2 awarded to Man United and 2 awarded to Liverpool FC.
Neither of these things will actually happen as Project Longbow FC have more lawyers than UEFA and Donald Trump combined and will slither out of the 2 year European ban also.


Why should the fourth tier have them shoved in on them? 
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Gary McKay Gary McKay wrote:

Originally posted by Double Maxim Double Maxim wrote:

With the news of Man city's banning from Europe does this have implications for the EPL?
Yes, it proves that money cant buy you the Champions League.
Money buys everything in football and has for a long time; it is just how well you spend it that matters.
Nail on the head.
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Money buys everything in football and has for a long time; it is just how well you spend it that matters.

And as a fan of one of two teams which between them have won the Scottish league 104 times in 124 years(?), you'll know only too well that it has been ever thus.


Edited by Territorial - 15 Feb 2020 at 3:30pm
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Money buys everything in football and has for a long time; it is just how well you spend it that matters.

And as a fan of one of two teams which between them have won the Scottish league 104 times in 124 years(?), you'll know only too well that it has been ever thus.

Ah here - it wasn’t always like this.

The decline probably started in the 80’s. 

The only team to win the EPL without being in the top 2/3 teams in salary levels has been Leicester. 

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Originally posted by Zinedine Kilbane 110 Zinedine Kilbane 110 wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Money buys everything in football and has for a long time; it is just how well you spend it that matters.

And as a fan of one of two teams which between them have won the Scottish league 104 times in 124 years(?), you'll know only too well that it has been ever thus.

Ah here - it wasn’t always like this.

The decline probably started in the 80’s.

OK, maybe not "always", but even in the early days of English League football, money often talked

In the end, we're talking about professional football here. Which simply put, means the wealthiest teams can buy the best players, in order to assemble the best teams.

The only qualification being that "simple" doesn't necessarily equate to "easy" (see eg Man U's current struggles). But when the wealthiest teams do get it right, it brings success.

Which is why if you look at the list of winners of the old English 1st Division, the early days were dominated by clubs in industrial towns in the North and Midlands who embraced professionalism more readily than their Southern counterparts, not least in recruiting star players from Scotland. Illegal payments were also rife.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_football_champions


Edited by Territorial - 15 Feb 2020 at 7:39pm
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