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The Decline of the EPL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roverstillidie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2015 at 8:23am
Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

 
An EPL collapse similiar to Italy is unlikely - the EPL has a captive TV audience globally as well as larger international fan bases. As long as people continue to subscribe to Sky the EPL is good for a long time to come.
Is the point not so did Italy in the 80's and early 90's? The cold war ending had more to do with their collapse than anything, but any league is a couple of lean years away from falling down the pecking order. No-one is suggesting England will collapse like Scotland, but with bad luck and bad decisions, it could end up the fifth league in Europe with nothing of note to show for the money spent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cabra Hoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2015 at 8:50am
Originally posted by roverstillidie roverstillidie wrote:

Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

 
An EPL collapse similiar to Italy is unlikely - the EPL has a captive TV audience globally as well as larger international fan bases. As long as people continue to subscribe to Sky the EPL is good for a long time to come.
Is the point not so did Italy in the 80's and early 90's? The cold war ending had more to do with their collapse than anything, but any league is a couple of lean years away from falling down the pecking order. No-one is suggesting England will collapse like Scotland, but with bad luck and bad decisions, it could end up the fifth league in Europe with nothing of note to show for the money spent.
 
Pay for view TV is where the big money is. Could be wrong but dont think it was Pay for view in Italy in 80's and 90's. It was also pre Bosman, hence clubs had more control over players and could control wage demands. There was also the 2/3 foreign player rule which meant top Italian clubs could control wages for home players.
 
Sky are prepared to pay £10m per match is indicitive of the power and global gravitas of the EPL.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roverstillidie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2015 at 9:12am
At the time Serie A was where the money was. The global interest was in that Milan side in particular. Its not a neat fit of a comparison, but the idea that the EPL will always have that level of interest globally is dangerously naive. If it falls down the pecking order, another league will happily replace it. I am not saying that is going to happen, but it might. Sky won't pay £10m a game if the interest isn't there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2015 at 9:24am
Originally posted by ftm ftm wrote:

Silly me I forget about all those CL trophies that the Gooners have won!
Are you saying Arsenal is not a well run club?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cabra Hoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2015 at 9:28am
Originally posted by roverstillidie roverstillidie wrote:

At the time Serie A was where the money was. The global interest was in that Milan side in particular. Its not a neat fit of a comparison, but the idea that the EPL will always have that level of interest globally is dangerously naive. If it falls down the pecking order, another league will happily replace it. I am not saying that is going to happen, but it might. Sky won't pay £10m a game if the interest isn't there.
 
Accept that Milan were huge and paid massive wages but it would be naive to think this was all about football and not about Berlusconis strife for economic and political domination of Italy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roverstillidie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2015 at 10:13am
Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

 
Accept that Milan were huge and paid massive wages but it would be naive to think this was all about football and not about Berlusconis strife for economic and political domination of Italy.
Hence I stated the circumstances were different, but the reality reamains Italian football went from undisputed #1 to #4 in a matter of months. There is nothing to stop this happening in England, and going back to the point ES was making, EPL fans outside England are a fickle bunch. If it falls further there is a tipping point where it becomes 'sh1te' and people watch Budesliga instead.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dunloybhoy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2015 at 10:17am
Originally posted by Landon Donovan Landon Donovan wrote:

Originally posted by dunloybhoy dunloybhoy wrote:

without Sky tv the EPL would be nothing. The money is all that makes it the self professed best league in the world. The players are only there for the wages and nothing more. When mid table average teams can throw about £30-40k a week at players and survive then theres something not right.


Without TV money, most leagues would dive. It is still the 2nd highest attended league in the World. I do not understand what point you were trying to make.

Its more that players come to these clubs and paid a fortune to sit on the bench i.e. Falco whilst young english players miss out.

The Premier League was sold to the lower clubs on the basis that it would be of benefit to the English national team and that the standard of english football would improve. It hasn't and if anything the English talent has decreased. yes Harry Kane has emerged but every so often a great hope of english football appears, the new English 'messi', and usually he fizzles out.

How many english players would actually be chased after by the big european clubs? not that many from that current crop. The current england U21 panel that placed recent friendlies contains next to no players who are either in the EPL or playing for their EPL club. There in is the problem.

The league polluted with mercenaries who want to come in make a fortune and not give a toss about the club or the fans.
put em under pressure!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary McKay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2015 at 10:37am
Not only Berlusconi but look at what happened to Parma.
"Smalling and Jones.... have the potential to be the PL’s best ever pairing in my opinion." - SlurAlex
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roverstillidie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2015 at 10:43am
Look at what happened to Leeds...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2015 at 11:25am
There are numerous thing to examine in this ongoing battle between leagues but economics and cultural factors are important. One of the main reasons that the Premier League has become so dominant in a worldwide cultural and media sense is because of the increasing cultural and media dominance of English speaking countries. You see a similar effect with the NFL in the US. These leagues have used this advantage to push themselves as global brands in a way that other leagues, notably Italy and Germany, haven't been able to. The Premier League learned a lot from the NFL in terms of marketing itself.

English football made a deliberate decision to stamp out hooliganism, to attract the middle and upper classes and to "monetise" itself. Other countries didn't want to or weren't able to do that to the same extent. London being the global financial centre made England but particularly London attractive for the likes of Abramovich and other foreign investors. Chelsea has benefitted enormously in the modern era purely because its prestigious location made it an extremely attractive investment. 

Spanish football has been successful at marketing itself in Latin America due to the cultural similarities but also has two massive global brands in the Madrid Falange and Barcelona which has helped to do this. This emergence of Madrid v Barcelona as the biggest club game in the world is a huge marketing plus for La Liga.

However what La Liga also shows is that having a league full of imports which is a global brand does not have to damage the national team of that country. In Spain's case it has benefitted it.

The simultaneous success of La Liga and the Spanish national team also shows that the argument that the Premier League has damaged the English national team is not necessarily correct, or that the two do not have to work in opposition to each other. It's the approach to underage grass roots football in England that has held English football back and this really doesn't have much to do with the Premier League.

Italy has fallen back because:
i) It didn't stamp out hooliganism which instead became an increasing problem in the game there thus pushing crowds down in the same way English football saw attendances drop in the 70s and 80s.
ii) It's not a major player in terms of international media - Italian is not spoken outside Italy, unlike English and Spanish which are widely spoken outside those countries.
iii) Economic and political stagnation in wider Italian society hasn't helped - Italy is seen as extremely corrupt internationally.
iv) It didn't aggressively market itself globally in the way English football did and thus wasn't able to monetise itself. This is a function of the above three. 

However a club like Roma will be well placed to become a European superpower when Italian football does sort itself out, which it surely will, because like Chelsea and PSG it has the non-football-related advantage of being located in a major European and world city which is seen as a very attractive place to live. 





Edited by sid waddell - 24 Mar 2015 at 11:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ftm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2015 at 11:33am
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by ftm ftm wrote:

Silly me I forget about all those CL trophies that the Gooners have won!

Are you saying Arsenal is not a well run club?
no not saying that Im saying they have underachieved in the CL.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabbsBalls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2015 at 11:37am
Originally posted by ftm ftm wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by ftm ftm wrote:

Silly me I forget about all those CL trophies that the Gooners have won!

Are you saying Arsenal is not a well run club?
no not saying that Im saying they have underachieved in the CL.


So a club is in disarray because they haven't won the champions league ? You on crack or something ?
l hear you are a racist now, father ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roverstillidie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2015 at 11:58am
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

There are numerous thing to examine in this ongoing battle between leagues but economics and cultural factors are important. One of the main reasons that the Premier League has become so dominant in a worldwide cultural and media sense is because of the increasing cultural and media dominance of English speaking countries. You see a similar effect with the NFL in the US. These leagues have used this advantage to push themselves as global brands in a way that other leagues, notably Italy and Germany, haven't been able to. The Premier League learned a lot from the NFL in terms of marketing itself.

English football made a deliberate decision to stamp out hooliganism, to attract the middle and upper classes and to "monetise" itself. Other countries didn't want to or weren't able to do that to the same extent. London being the global financial centre made England but particularly London attractive for the likes of Abramovich and other foreign investors. Chelsea has benefitted enormously in the modern era purely because its prestigious location made it an extremely attractive investment. 

Spanish football has been successful at marketing itself in Latin America due to the cultural similarities but also has two massive global brands in the Madrid Falange and Barcelona which has helped to do this. This emergence of Madrid v Barcelona as the biggest club game in the world is a huge marketing plus for La Liga.

However what La Liga also shows is that having a league full of imports which is a global brand does not have to damage the national team of that country. In Spain's case it has benefitted it.

The simultaneous success of La Liga and the Spanish national team also shows that the argument that the Premier League has damaged the English national team is not necessarily correct, or that the two do not have to work in opposition to each other. It's the approach to underage grass roots football in England that has held English football back and this really doesn't have much to do with the Premier League.

Italy has fallen back because:
i) It didn't stamp out hooliganism which instead became an increasing problem in the game there thus pushing crowds down in the same way English football saw attendances drop in the 70s and 80s.
ii) It's not a major player in terms of international media - Italian is not spoken outside Italy, unlike English and Spanish which are widely spoken outside those countries.
iii) Economic and political stagnation in wider Italian society hasn't helped - Italy is seen as extremely corrupt internationally.
iv) It didn't aggressively market itself globally in the way English football did and thus wasn't able to monetise itself. This is a function of the above three. 

However a club like Roma will be well placed to become a European superpower when Italian football does sort itself out, which it surely will, because like Chelsea and PSG it has the non-football-related advantage of being located in a major European and world city which is seen as a very attractive place to live. 



You have some very valid points, but two nits to pick.
 
1: Language has nothing to do with why Kim in Korea became a die hard (insert English club of the week here) fan. Access, hype and marketing did. And there is no reason that can't be replicated in France, Spain or Germany.
 
2: Kim in Korea doesn't know or care what is going on on the Kings Road before a Chelsea game. Hooliganism being stamped out (or just not reported) in England has little to do with it - there aren't exactly mass riots on the terrace in Spain, France, Germany or even Italy.
 
How long will Kim keep following his English team if the quality declines and his local TV station decides the Bundesliga live game presents better value for money?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cabra Hoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2015 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by roverstillidie roverstillidie wrote:

Look at what happened to Leeds...
 
Remember Leeds played Shels to a packed out Tolka Park years ago.
 
Striking parallels with both clubs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2015 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by roverstillidie roverstillidie wrote:

[QUOTE=sid waddell]
 
1: Language has nothing to do with why Kim in Korea became a die hard (insert English club of the week here) fan. Access, hype and marketing did. And there is no reason that can't be replicated in France, Spain or Germany.
 
2: Kim in Korea doesn't know or care what is going on on the Kings Road before a Chelsea game. Hooliganism being stamped out (or just not reported) in England has little to do with it - there aren't exactly mass riots on the terrace in Spain, France, Germany or even Italy.
 
How long will Kim keep following his English team if the quality declines and his local TV station decides the Bundesliga live game presents better value for money?
1. The access, hype and marketing which has enticed Kim in Pusan to fanatically sit in front of his TV with his can of Coke and his barbecued dog legs every week is a function of the global hegemony of the English language. English is the language that Asians want to learn, the UK and US are the places that Asians emigrate to. They don't care about speaking French, Spanish or German. English speaking culture has huge cachet in Asia and English football benefits hugely off the back of that.

2. Hooliganism being stamped out has a huge amount to do with it. It made the game attractive to the middle class and thus brought the money in. Kim in Pusan might not care what's going on on the King's Road before a Chelsea match but Roman Abramovich does and the type of soulless corporate suits that Chelsea have targetted sure do. Chelsea's success has come from this targetting of the middle class and attraction of investment. Kim only follows Chelsea because they're successful and have marketed themselves aggressively. If there were still racist skinheads rampaging around the Shed Chelsea wouldn't have Abramovich's money and Kim wouldn't know who they were.

Italy does have hooligan problems and racism, they have failed to tackle those problems and it's clearly one of the major reasons why Serie A has seen its crowds dwindle, because grounds there are seen as threatening places. Juventus are the only club there that have followed the English model and they are reaping the benefits.


Edited by sid waddell - 24 Mar 2015 at 12:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roverstillidie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2015 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

1. The access, hype and marketing which has enticed Kim in Pusan to fanatically sit in front of his TV with his can of Coke and his barbecued dog legs every week is a function of the global hegemony of the English language. English is the language that Asians want to learn, the UK and US are the places that Asians emigrate to. They don't care about speaking French, Spanish or German. English speaking culture has huge cachet in Asia and English football benefits hugely off the back of that.

2. Hooliganism being stamped out has a huge amount to do with it. It made the game attractive to the middle class and thus brought the money in. Kim in Pusan might not care what's going on on the King's Road before a Chelsea match but Roman Abramovich does and the type of soulless corporate suits that Chelsea have targetted sure do. Chelsea's success has come from this targetting of the middle class and attraction of investment. Kim only follows Chelsea because they're successful and have marketed themselves aggressively. If there were still racist skinheads rampaging around the Shed Chelsea wouldn't have Abramovich's money and Kim wouldn't know who they were.

Italy does have hooligan problems and racism, they have failed to tackle those problems and it's clearly one of the major reasons why Serie A has seen its crowds dwindle, because grounds there are seen as threatening places. Juventus are the only club there that have followed the English model and they are reaping the benefits.
1: But he watches the game in Korean. I don't think the native language of the club is as big a factor as you are making it out.
 
2: I take your point re the demographics of the English game, but thats not how you positioned it. Again, France, Spain and Germany don't have a hoolie problem so therefore presumably they can also reap these benefits?
 
The reason the English game is currently the most global sport can be summed up in three letters. S, K and Y. They have a vested interest in the game and that is why I think in the medium term English football will still be the product most consumed. But the risk is that if standards continue to fall in the way they have that the days of a £10m valuation on Wigan v Stoke  will end and deflate the game. And that will cause a vicious circle and there is a tipping point where interest wanes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2015 at 1:08pm
Originally posted by roverstillidie roverstillidie wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

1. The access, hype and marketing which has enticed Kim in Pusan to fanatically sit in front of his TV with his can of Coke and his barbecued dog legs every week is a function of the global hegemony of the English language. English is the language that Asians want to learn, the UK and US are the places that Asians emigrate to. They don't care about speaking French, Spanish or German. English speaking culture has huge cachet in Asia and English football benefits hugely off the back of that.

2. Hooliganism being stamped out has a huge amount to do with it. It made the game attractive to the middle class and thus brought the money in. Kim in Pusan might not care what's going on on the King's Road before a Chelsea match but Roman Abramovich does and the type of soulless corporate suits that Chelsea have targetted sure do. Chelsea's success has come from this targetting of the middle class and attraction of investment. Kim only follows Chelsea because they're successful and have marketed themselves aggressively. If there were still racist skinheads rampaging around the Shed Chelsea wouldn't have Abramovich's money and Kim wouldn't know who they were.

Italy does have hooligan problems and racism, they have failed to tackle those problems and it's clearly one of the major reasons why Serie A has seen its crowds dwindle, because grounds there are seen as threatening places. Juventus are the only club there that have followed the English model and they are reaping the benefits.
1: But he watches the game in Korean. I don't think the native language of the club is as big a factor as you are making it out.
 
2: I take your point re the demographics of the English game, but thats not how you positioned it. Again, France, Spain and Germany don't have a hoolie problem so therefore presumably they can also reap these benefits?
 
The reason the English game is currently the most global sport can be summed up in three letters. S, K and Y. They have a vested interest in the game and that is why I think in the medium term English football will still be the product most consumed. But the risk is that if standards continue to fall in the way they have that the days of a £10m valuation on Wigan v Stoke  will end and deflate the game. And that will cause a vicious circle and there is a tipping point where interest wanes.
1. The coverage English football gets in Korea is a function of the global hegemony of English-speaking culture. The fact that Kim may not speak English himself is irrelevant. US TV shows and movies are in English too and Kim and his family will probably watch those too through subtitles or dubbing.

2. Nobody said the decline in hooliganism was the only reason for English football's global media rise. It's one of a number of contributory factors. But if hooliganism was to return tomorrow to 1980s levels it would clearly make the "product" less attractive to investors.

Sky is the obvious example of the "monetisation" of English football that I mentioned earlier. Obviously it's a massive driver. But it's all tied in. The changing demographics making the game more attractive to TV companies, advertisers and the corporate sector. Exploit the strengths of your brand to the full, market the sh*t out of it and follow the money. At an individual club level, Manchester United have done it far more effectively than Liverpool. Hence the latter's rise and the former's decline over the last two decades. Manchester United v Liiverpool is like a microcosm of the Premier League v Serie A. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Double Maxim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2015 at 6:05am

The Premier League is on the cusp of a massive breakthrough, and anyone who has been to England recently knows why as soon as they use a cash machine.

 

While it's been fairly easy these past few weeks to compare the genius of Messi and Barcelona generally with the lumpen football being played by the best Premier League teams, it's wrong to assume that we're in a long-term pattern.

The strength of sterling means that this summer when the likes of Paul Pogba are weighing up the euros of PSG versus the Queen's shilling of Manchester United or City they're seeing a transformative impact on their bottom line.

There's a sluice of cash to come from the new television rights and allied to the strong pound this summer will be a bonanza for agents and players.

It means that the well meaning and earnest discussions of what's wrong with English football - particularly when it comes to the Champions League - are pointless.

English clubs should be able to buy that top tier of players who have gone elsewhere in recent seasons. The balance of power, as cyclical as it is, will swing back relatively soon.

This assumes intelligent design in the transfer market. Spurs, Liverpool, City, Manchester United and Chelsea have all had purchase anxiety while apparently sure-thing guaranteed gold-plated players chose to go to Madrid or PSG or Bayern.

That's the great intangible in predicting that things will be better but the days when United could just buy (or even rent) a Tevez to add to Rooney and Ronaldo may be about to return.

Not even the Premier League can screw that up, right?

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Edited by Double Maxim - 31 Mar 2015 at 6:51am
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