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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EdisonCavani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by 9fingers 9fingers wrote:

Originally posted by Banjaxed Banjaxed wrote:

Originally posted by E2016 E2016 wrote:

Article by Aidan Fitzmaurice in the Independent today regarding the impending availability of Chris Hughton and the shadow that is likely to cast over Kenny should he do badly in next qualifiers.

Hughton. Confused  His best days are in the past, like his footballing philosophy.
Very unfair on Hughton 
I watched a bit of the match on Sunday having read plenty on here putting the boot into Hughton’s style of football. For the bit I watched of it I thought they played some good stuff and passed the ball very well. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trap junior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 12:43pm
Hughton I'm unsure about.  He would probably get better results than Kenny but I am guessing the football would be dour.  He was the coach under Kerr and that was the worst football Ireland ever played.  Boring and totally ineffective.  Did we muster one shot on goal in a must win game against the swiss in 2005?
Well the Germans beat them 13-0 and the Czechs beat them 7-0 so that suggests they are tightening things up at the back

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote You Tell Me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 12:49pm
I wouldn't have said the football we played under Kerr was the worst we ever played - or anywhere close to it.

In terms of style of play our worst was Charlton, Trapattoni, O'Neill towards the end and McCarthy 2.0.

In terms of results our worst was Hand just before Charlton came in, Staunton and Kenny.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 1:21pm
I think hughton would take us back to the 'risk adverse' football we played under previous managers.

Above all else don't lose. - Which gives us the allusion of being more competitive but in reality limits the team in selection , formation and approach.

If Kenny wasn't manager you don't have Omobamidele, bazunu, idah, mcgrath or Cullen in the team.

They would be replaced with Randolph and Clark, Collins would likely be up front. Hourihane and hendrick would become the undroppables again. Mcclean holds the front line etc.

People forget that Kenny has taken a lot of risks, some have been bad some we will see the benefit from for years.

Example being goalkeepers, we tried kelleher, Travers and bazunu to see which would be a stand out. 


Edited by Left foot - 15 Sep 2021 at 1:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trap junior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

I wouldn't have said the football we played under Kerr was the worst we ever played - or anywhere close to it.

In terms of style of play our worst was Charlton, Trapattoni, O'Neill towards the end and McCarthy 2.0.

In terms of results our worst was Hand just before Charlton came in, Staunton and Kenny.


In terms if results Kenny is the worst manager. 6% win ratio!  Next worse is 35% or something.
Well the Germans beat them 13-0 and the Czechs beat them 7-0 so that suggests they are tightening things up at the back

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote E2016 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

I think hughton would take us back to the 'risk adverse' football we played under previous managers.

Above all else don't lose. - Which gives us the allusion of being more competitive but in reality limits the team in selection , formation and approach.

If Kenny wasn't manager you don't have Omobamidele, bazunu, idah, mcgrath or Cullen in the team.

They would be replaced with Randolph and Clark, Collins would likely be up front. Hourihane and hendrick would become the undroppables again. Mcclean holds the front line etc.

People forget that Kenny has taken a lot of risks, some have been bad some we will see the benefit from for years.

Example being goalkeepers, we tried kelleher, Travers and bazunu to see which would be a stand out. 


No we didn't.

Randolph was obviously first choice and got injured before Serbia game. Kelleher got ruled out through injury too. He played Travers who made an extraordinary gaffe and Bazunu came in and did well. It certainly wasn't under the pretence of giving everyone a chance ffs.

Bazunu kept the shirt since as he played well, but there was a swell of public and media goodwill toward him following the Luxembourg game.

Kelleher came on at half time in a friendly. Using your bizarre rationale - this certainly wasn't enough time to see 'which would be a stand out'.

I imagine he decided, with qualification over after 2 games, that he would get criticism for returning to 34 year old Randolph - given one of his mandates was to bring though players.

It was the complete opposite of a risk to do this. Is there any limit to which people will sink to try to lavish undeserved praise upon Kenny?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

I wouldn't have said the football we played under Kerr was the worst we ever played - or anywhere close to it.

In terms of style of play our worst was Charlton, Trapattoni, O'Neill towards the end and McCarthy 2.0.

In terms of results our worst was Hand just before Charlton came in, Staunton and Kenny.


In terms if results Kenny is the worst manager. 6% win ratio!  Next worse is 35% or something.

Reductionist ratios that are really unhelpful and exclusionary of any other variables or considerations.

Everyone is aware of the results but also the improved player performances, player development, formation and approach to play and lots more.

That is why the majority of fans continue to support the team and manager

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shakeyshamrock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:


Taking into account that Forest are a basket case club these days, he can be forgiven for their current situation in my view.


excuses are ok now because it's a "basket case club" - what would you call the FAI over the past 20 years? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by E2016 E2016 wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

I think hughton would take us back to the 'risk adverse' football we played under previous managers.

Above all else don't lose. - Which gives us the allusion of being more competitive but in reality limits the team in selection , formation and approach.

If Kenny wasn't manager you don't have Omobamidele, bazunu, idah, mcgrath or Cullen in the team.

They would be replaced with Randolph and Clark, Collins would likely be up front. Hourihane and hendrick would become the undroppables again. Mcclean holds the front line etc.

People forget that Kenny has taken a lot of risks, some have been bad some we will see the benefit from for years.

Example being goalkeepers, we tried kelleher, Travers and bazunu to see which would be a stand out. 


No we didn't.

Randolph was obviously first choice and got injured before Serbia game. Kelleher got ruled out through injury too. He played Travers who made an extraordinary gaffe and Bazunu came in and did well. It certainly wasn't under the pretence of giving everyone a chance ffs.

Bazunu kept the shirt since as he played well, but there was a swell of public and media goodwill toward him following the Luxembourg game.

Kelleher came on at half time in a friendly. Using your bizarre rationale - this certainly wasn't enough time to see 'which would be a stand out'.

I imagine he decided, with qualification over after 2 games, that he would get criticism for returning to 34 year old Randolph - given one of his mandates was to bring though players.

It was the complete opposite of a risk to do this. Is there any limit to which people will sink to try to lavish undeserved praise upon Kenny?

He gave all 3 goalkeepers time on the pitch, he could have just selected one and stuck by him. 

Any view on the other things i said? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote You Tell Me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

I think hughton would take us back to the 'risk adverse' football we played under previous managers.

Above all else don't lose. - Which gives us the allusion of being more competitive but in reality limits the team in selection , formation and approach.

If Kenny wasn't manager you don't have Omobamidele, bazunu, idah, mcgrath or Cullen in the team.

They would be replaced with Randolph and Clark, Collins would likely be up front. Hourihane and hendrick would become the undroppables again. Mcclean holds the front line etc.

People forget that Kenny has taken a lot of risks, some have been bad some we will see the benefit from for years.

Example being goalkeepers, we tried kelleher, Travers and bazunu to see which would be a stand out. 

You say risk adverse as though it's a bad thing. Good teams are risk adverse in that they don't cough up many goalscoring opportunity but, for a limited team like us who don't score many goals, I'd describe being "risk-adverse" as a fairly essential requirement for us to be honest if we're ever going to get anywhere.

Also, I'm not sure about the illusion of being more competitive - in our last campaign we were competitive, we took qualification to the end of the campaign, this time it was over at half way. That's not an illusion, that's actually being competitive versus not being competitive at all.

I don't think it's fair to comment on what players a future manager might pick, we just don't know. I think it's reasonable to say that Kenny has brought in more young players than other managers might have done, but at the same time any manager was going to have to bring new players in given the form and age profile of our previously established players as well as the various injury and illness issues we have encountered here and there in the last year.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horsebox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

I wouldn't have said the football we played under Kerr was the worst we ever played - or anywhere close to it.

In terms of style of play our worst was Charlton, Trapattoni, O'Neill towards the end and McCarthy 2.0.

In terms of results our worst was Hand just before Charlton came in, Staunton and Kenny.

The 3 managers that actually got us to a major tournament.


     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote E2016 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by shakeyshamrock shakeyshamrock wrote:

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:


Taking into account that Forest are a basket case club these days, he can be forgiven for their current situation in my view.


excuses are ok now because it's a "basket case club" - what would you call the FAI over the past 20 years? 


Not even remotely comparable.

How exactly is Forests owner interfering with team selection, making deals with dodgy agents to carry out their transfer business, or signing players of their own accord even remotely, on even the slightest scale comparable to the FAI?

When has the FAI interfered with team selection exactly? And quite obviously they can't interfere with transfers.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote E2016 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Originally posted by E2016 E2016 wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

I think hughton would take us back to the 'risk adverse' football we played under previous managers.

Above all else don't lose. - Which gives us the allusion of being more competitive but in reality limits the team in selection , formation and approach.

If Kenny wasn't manager you don't have Omobamidele, bazunu, idah, mcgrath or Cullen in the team.

They would be replaced with Randolph and Clark, Collins would likely be up front. Hourihane and hendrick would become the undroppables again. Mcclean holds the front line etc.

People forget that Kenny has taken a lot of risks, some have been bad some we will see the benefit from for years.

Example being goalkeepers, we tried kelleher, Travers and bazunu to see which would be a stand out. 


No we didn't.

Randolph was obviously first choice and got injured before Serbia game. Kelleher got ruled out through injury too. He played Travers who made an extraordinary gaffe and Bazunu came in and did well. It certainly wasn't under the pretence of giving everyone a chance ffs.

Bazunu kept the shirt since as he played well, but there was a swell of public and media goodwill toward him following the Luxembourg game.

Kelleher came on at half time in a friendly. Using your bizarre rationale - this certainly wasn't enough time to see 'which would be a stand out'.

I imagine he decided, with qualification over after 2 games, that he would get criticism for returning to 34 year old Randolph - given one of his mandates was to bring though players.

It was the complete opposite of a risk to do this. Is there any limit to which people will sink to try to lavish undeserved praise upon Kenny?

He gave all 3 goalkeepers time on the pitch, he could have just selected one and stuck by him. 

Any view on the other things i said? 


He did, he selected Bazunu after Travers ruled himself out through his own terrible performance and Bazunu ruled himself in after a good performance. Giving Kelleher 45 minutes in the 2nd half of a friendly is not something to praise a manager for, or intimate that they were doing so with some grand goalkeeping try-out plan in mind. It's bizarre.

On the other things, you've made a patently unprovable claim that Chris Hughton would not play 6 specific players in favour of a different, specific 6 players. Who in their right mind is going to pay any attention to that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trap junior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

I wouldn't have said the football we played under Kerr was the worst we ever played - or anywhere close to it.

In terms of style of play our worst was Charlton, Trapattoni, O'Neill towards the end and McCarthy 2.0.

In terms of results our worst was Hand just before Charlton came in, Staunton and Kenny.


In terms if results Kenny is the worst manager. 6% win ratio!  Next worse is 35% or something.

Reductionist ratios that are really unhelpful and exclusionary of any other variables or considerations.

Everyone is aware of the results but also the improved player performances, player development, formation and approach to play and lots more.

That is why the majority of fans continue to support the team and manager



Hi Stephen.

Kenny still doesn't know his best team or formation.  What player has improved their performance under Kenny?  Don't say Bazunu now.  Name players who underperformed in the past  and now are up to their best because of Kenny.

Kenny has blooded many young players and that will benefit us in the future.  That is is the only positive I can take from his time in charge so far.  The football we played under him has regressed in terms of passing.  Up to the England game there were good signs of nice football.  From England onwards its been Mick 2.0 football with a tiny bit more passing from the keeper tot he back 4.

Kenny is on very very thin ice.  I'd give him til the end of the campaign but if he doesn;t beaut Luxembourg or Azerbaijan he should be sacked.
Well the Germans beat them 13-0 and the Czechs beat them 7-0 so that suggests they are tightening things up at the back

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shakeyshamrock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by E2016 E2016 wrote:

Originally posted by shakeyshamrock shakeyshamrock wrote:

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:


Taking into account that Forest are a basket case club these days, he can be forgiven for their current situation in my view.


excuses are ok now because it's a "basket case club" - what would you call the FAI over the past 20 years? 


Not even remotely comparable.

How exactly is Forests owner interfering with team selection, making deals with dodgy agents to carry out their transfer business, or signing players of their own accord even remotely, on even the slightest scale comparable to the FAI?

When has the FAI interfered with team selection exactly? And quite obviously they can't interfere with transfers.


you're right, they're not remotely comparable - one is a bad business, one is a disgraceful mismanagement of public funds - the FAI are far, far worse! 

if you can't figure out the connection between the FAI and the availability/existence or not of talented players then I can't help you.. and neither can Chris Hughton.. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote E2016 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by shakeyshamrock shakeyshamrock wrote:

Originally posted by E2016 E2016 wrote:

Originally posted by shakeyshamrock shakeyshamrock wrote:

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:


Taking into account that Forest are a basket case club these days, he can be forgiven for their current situation in my view.


excuses are ok now because it's a "basket case club" - what would you call the FAI over the past 20 years? 


Not even remotely comparable.

How exactly is Forests owner interfering with team selection, making deals with dodgy agents to carry out their transfer business, or signing players of their own accord even remotely, on even the slightest scale comparable to the FAI?

When has the FAI interfered with team selection exactly? And quite obviously they can't interfere with transfers.


you're right, they're not remotely comparable - one is a bad business, one is a disgraceful mismanagement of public funds - the FAI are far, far worse! 

if you can't figure out the connection between the FAI and the availability/existence or not of talented players then I can't help you.. and neither can Chris Hughton.. 


What is your point exactly? Was it not to intimate that the current situation at the FAI is an excuse for Kenny, if the situation behind the scenes at Forest is an excuse for Hughton?

Which I have pointed out are completely different?

And if we have 'not so talented players' then a proven manager with a track record of getting the most AND achieving success with 'not so talented players' would surely be a better bet than a manager with a CV that pales in comparison?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote You Tell Me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

I wouldn't have said the football we played under Kerr was the worst we ever played - or anywhere close to it.

In terms of style of play our worst was Charlton, Trapattoni, O'Neill towards the end and McCarthy 2.0.

In terms of results our worst was Hand just before Charlton came in, Staunton and Kenny.

The 3 managers that actually got us to a major tournament.



Indeed. 

I think a lot of the issue with managers here is that Irish supporters want different things, some will sacrifice qualification in search of the idea of playing better football, for many of us though it's results that matter at the end of the day and we're willing, if not happy, to sacrifice the quality of football somewhat to improve the results.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trap junior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

I wouldn't have said the football we played under Kerr was the worst we ever played - or anywhere close to it.

In terms of style of play our worst was Charlton, Trapattoni, O'Neill towards the end and McCarthy 2.0.

In terms of results our worst was Hand just before Charlton came in, Staunton and Kenny.

The 3 managers that actually got us to a major tournament.



Indeed. 

I think a lot of the issue with managers here is that Irish supporters want different things, some will sacrifice qualification in search of the idea of playing better football, for many of us though it's results that matter at the end of the day and we're willing, if not happy, to sacrifice the quality of football somewhat to improve the results.


Depends what you mean by 'results'.  To me its punching above our weight and maximising our capabilities.  There is no way in hell you can tell me Kenny is doing that.   I expect EIRE to be in the hunt for a playoff spot until the last 2 games in the group.

Organisation and a team spirit alone can bring you that in international football.

We have been shipping lots of goals so there is little organisation in the camp imo.  Get that sorted then build from there.  Kenny has failed in that regard.
Well the Germans beat them 13-0 and the Czechs beat them 7-0 so that suggests they are tightening things up at the back

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