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Jack Charlton
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Points: 6773 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote You Tell Me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2023 at 8:26am
Originally posted by zizu Kilbane zizu Kilbane wrote:

https://x.com/AllIrishSport/status/1726738717476372952?t=6xcrX6cYqMb0aGdsFUSYcA&s=09

He's speaking nothing but sense here 

Would have made more sense if, having pulled Moran out of the Under 21s and brought him over to the Netherlands, he had actually played him. Moran could easily have played the Norway game and joined up with the seniors after that. That might actually have made sense.
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The Moran situation is clearly just being used as a stick to beat Kenny, which is understandable really at this stage. No one piped up when Collins was called into the snr squad and not used against Luxembourg & Portugal when the U21s had Euro qualifiers against Italy & Sweden. I think Omobamidele got meaningless mins of the bench when 3 up to Lux and again, no one complaining how he should of been used in the U21s. Last year when we had a meaningless friendly against Lithuania, I can't recall the outrage about Parrot, Collins etc on the same night when U21s had another Euro qualifier against Sweden.

There's countless other examples of these situations happening with other managers down the years. If you're eligible to be with the U21s but good enough to be with the senior squad you should be in the senior squad regardless of the importance of U21 games. 

That's the way it is, the way it should be and always has been. It's been no different under Kenny no matter how we feel about him.
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The Moran situation is different for a number of reasons.

Firstly, unlike many of the instances above, Moran is not an established senior squad player. In fact he had never been with the seniors before this window.

Secondly, he was the main man in the Under 21 team. Not a centre back, where we tend to have loads of decent options, or a full back or whatever. 

Thirdly, the two senior games this month literally couldn't have been less important. A dead rubber and a friendly under a manager about to be deservedly shown the door. 

And finally, to top it off, having pulled him out of the Under 21s for the Norway game, he didn't even play him in the Netherlands.

There may be previous cases where one or two of the above was applicable, but not all four. So no, not just a stick to beat him with, but yet another valid addition to what is at this stage a lengthy charge sheet.
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If Merann was the next best available why did he not come on as a sub when the midfield was.a.joke on Sat?
Why was he left out of the original squad?
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Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

If Merann was the next best available why did he not come on as a sub when the midfield was.a.joke on Sat?
Why was he left out of the original squad?

Next best available means he is the player next in line to join the squad,  not the team. 
AKA pedantic kunt
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Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

The Moran situation is different for a number of reasons.

Firstly, unlike many of the instances above, Moran is not an established senior squad player. In fact he had never been with the seniors before this window.
Neither was Parrot, Omobamidele, Collins, Idah etc. At some stage every player isn't an established senior squad player. 

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Secondly, he was the main man in the Under 21 team. Not a centre back, where we tend to have loads of decent options, or a full back or whatever.
If he had of been a centre back, you'd still be lambasting Kenny for it. Are you trying to tell me the players listed above and the likes of Connolly etc wouldn't of made a difference to that U21 qualifying campaign?

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Thirdly, the two senior games this month literally couldn't have been less important. A dead rubber and a friendly under a manager about to be deservedly shown the door.
As opposed to a friendly against the mighty Lithuania?

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

And finally, to top it off, having pulled him out of the Under 21s for the Norway game, he didn't even play him in the Netherlands.
Again, not the first time, far from in fact and won't be the last. I'm sure you felt indifferent about previous instances.
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Some of those mentioned above should have been back with the 21s at various times after making their senior debuts. 
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Jack Charlton
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Originally posted by Badgersboys9 Badgersboys9 wrote:

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

The Moran situation is different for a number of reasons.

Firstly, unlike many of the instances above, Moran is not an established senior squad player. In fact he had never been with the seniors before this window.
Neither was Parrot, Omobamidele, Collins, Idah etc. At some stage every player isn't an established senior squad player. 

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Secondly, he was the main man in the Under 21 team. Not a centre back, where we tend to have loads of decent options, or a full back or whatever.
If he had of been a centre back, you'd still be lambasting Kenny for it. Are you trying to tell me the players listed above and the likes of Connolly etc wouldn't of made a difference to that U21 qualifying campaign?

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Thirdly, the two senior games this month literally couldn't have been less important. A dead rubber and a friendly under a manager about to be deservedly shown the door.
As opposed to a friendly against the mighty Lithuania?

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

And finally, to top it off, having pulled him out of the Under 21s for the Norway game, he didn't even play him in the Netherlands.
Again, not the first time, far from in fact and won't be the last. I'm sure you felt indifferent about previous instances.


I have already answered this in the piece you conveniently left out of your response...

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:


There may be previous cases where one or two of the above was applicable, but not all four. So no, not just a stick to beat him with, but yet another valid addition to what is at this stage a lengthy charge sheet.

If you want to argue otherwise then show me a case where all four points are applicable please.
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Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Originally posted by zizu Kilbane zizu Kilbane wrote:

https://x.com/AllIrishSport/status/1726738717476372952?t=6xcrX6cYqMb0aGdsFUSYcA&s=09

He's speaking nothing but sense here 

Would have made more sense if, having pulled Moran out of the Under 21s and brought him over to the Netherlands, he had actually played him. Moran could easily have played the Norway game and joined up with the seniors after that. That might actually have made sense.

He explained:

- 5 players were awaiting scans and he needed cover. Likely some players were touch and go right up to the game
- Moran was next in line for a call up 
- You play the game in front of you and he believed other players we required ro influence the game (I wouldn't necessarily agree with this but he's the manager and that's his perogative)

All of the above is extremely reasonable. Lots of sticks to beat Kenny with but promoting a player into the senior squad really isn't one of them
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Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

If Merann was the next best available why did he not come on as a sub when the midfield was.a.joke on Sat?
Why was he left out of the original squad?

Next best available means he is the player next in line to join the squad,  not the team. 


He is arguably our best midfielder already and he is just gone 20.  Cullen, Molumby, Browne and Knight couldn't make an incisive pass if their life depended on it.   Give the lad a go in a nothing game when our midfield was crying out for creativity.  What's the point in playing Ferguson if our midfield cant give him the ball?  The worst that could happen was that he would be no better than the rest of them.  Not losing anything. The midfield wasn''t working.  Qualification was long gone.  Kenny was afraid. Afraid to throw him on. Simple as that.  Afraid to lose 2-0 or 3-0, 4-0 etc.  He was afraid to be positive in case we got thrashed.  1-0 defeat to him feels like a win.  Same with Szmodics. Afraid to just put him straight into a qualification match.  I'd bet my bottom dollar that's why Szmodics has made himself unavailable.  Got told he wouldn't be involved on matchday I'd wager. 

Ironic for all Kenny's talk of ambition and being brave he shat his pants when he got the job. Afraid of taking risks even in meaningless games.  He got more and more conservative as time went on even bringing back Duffy!


Edited by Trap junior - 21 Nov 2023 at 11:00am
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Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

If you want to argue otherwise then show me a case where all four points are applicable please.
OK, Robbie Brady for a start. Called into the squad for a friendly against the mighty Oman at the same time when our U21s had qualifiers against Italy & Hungary and in the same season where he was the U21 record goal scorer and POTY. And the other cases where I mentioned, although somehow CBs etc aren't deemed as important(for some reason). 

Even leaving out CBs(for some reason), I'm sure I could find other cases as you well know, because it happens and does so with every other national team once U21s are deemed good enough. Promoting players to the senior team has never been used to criticise a manager. Whatever is put in front of you, you will try to work it to bash Kenny with. He deserves a lot a critique but, as has been pointed out, consistently pinning everything and anything on him and derailing non related posts into a Kenny bash is tiresome. 
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Originally posted by zizu Kilbane zizu Kilbane wrote:

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Originally posted by zizu Kilbane zizu Kilbane wrote:

https://x.com/AllIrishSport/status/1726738717476372952?t=6xcrX6cYqMb0aGdsFUSYcA&s=09

He's speaking nothing but sense here 

Would have made more sense if, having pulled Moran out of the Under 21s and brought him over to the Netherlands, he had actually played him. Moran could easily have played the Norway game and joined up with the seniors after that. That might actually have made sense.

He explained:

- 5 players were awaiting scans and he needed cover. Likely some players were touch and go right up to the game
- Moran was next in line for a call up 
- You play the game in front of you and he believed other players we required ro influence the game (I wouldn't necessarily agree with this but he's the manager and that's his perogative)

All of the above is extremely reasonable. Lots of sticks to beat Kenny with but promoting a player into the senior squad really isn't one of them

For me Moran should have stayed with the u21's and helped them get a result in an important qualifying game.

If we win the Norway game - we are in pole position to qualify.

The Holland game is a dead rubber - one of which we were never going to get a result. Even if we did get a result. It means very little.

I think it's very important for the underage teams to qualify for major tournament as this will benefit them in the long run and also open doors for them when they play on a bigger stage.
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Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Originally posted by zizu Kilbane zizu Kilbane wrote:

Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Originally posted by zizu Kilbane zizu Kilbane wrote:

https://x.com/AllIrishSport/status/1726738717476372952?t=6xcrX6cYqMb0aGdsFUSYcA&s=09

He's speaking nothing but sense here 

Would have made more sense if, having pulled Moran out of the Under 21s and brought him over to the Netherlands, he had actually played him. Moran could easily have played the Norway game and joined up with the seniors after that. That might actually have made sense.

He explained:

- 5 players were awaiting scans and he needed cover. Likely some players were touch and go right up to the game
- Moran was next in line for a call up 
- You play the game in front of you and he believed other players we required ro influence the game (I wouldn't necessarily agree with this but he's the manager and that's his perogative)

All of the above is extremely reasonable. Lots of sticks to beat Kenny with but promoting a player into the senior squad really isn't one of them

For me Moran should have stayed with the u21's and helped them get a result in an important qualifying game.

If we win the Norway game - we are in pole position to qualify.

The Holland game is a dead rubber - one of which we were never going to get a result. Even if we did get a result. It means very little.

I think it's very important for the underage teams to qualify for major tournament as this will benefit them in the long run and also open doors for them when they play on a bigger stage.


100% agree
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The hypocrisy on here is baffling. There's not a chance that posters on here have, in the past, been calling for players deemed good enough for the seniors to stay with the U21s for qualifying campaigns. 

The only time I've seen it was when someone hasn't been playing club football and should drop down to the U21s like its some form of punishment.
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As a fan, I would have also like to see Andy Moran stay with the U21's given it was a dead rubber game at senior level and Moran would improve the 21s. But I can also say the same thing about Troy Parrott and Andrew Omobamidele. 

But it obviously doesn't work like that for the manager for the U21s and Seniors. They look at it as a feeder system to the first team and when the player is needed for the seniors then that is where he goes.
As others have said, has happened before, will happen in the future. Not just with the Ireland team either.
It's a very weak stick to beat Kenny with. 

I do also think it might have been a different circumstance had it been like the last window of the U21 campaign and they needed 4 points to qualify or something. But there is still a long way to go in that and with Moran it's now highly unlikely that he will drop back down to that level anyway so they are going to need to try qualify without relying on him anyway.
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Originally posted by Badgersboys9 Badgersboys9 wrote:

The hypocrisy on here is baffling. There's not a chance that posters on here have, in the past, been calling for players deemed good enough for the seniors to stay with the U21s for qualifying campaigns. 

The only time I've seen it was when someone hasn't been playing club football and should drop down to the U21s like its some form of punishment.


When an important U-21 game is on versus an absolute dead rubber for the senior team I'd always prefer the U-21's to keep their strongest players where possible. Especially considering Moran didn't even get 1 minute on the pitch
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Originally posted by Gaz Gaz wrote:

Originally posted by Badgersboys9 Badgersboys9 wrote:

The hypocrisy on here is baffling. There's not a chance that posters on here have, in the past, been calling for players deemed good enough for the seniors to stay with the U21s for qualifying campaigns. 

The only time I've seen it was when someone hasn't been playing club football and should drop down to the U21s like its some form of punishment.

When an important U-21 game is on versus an absolute dead rubber for the senior team I'd always prefer the U-21's to keep their strongest players where possible. Especially considering Moran didn't even get 1 minute on the pitch
If that's your opinion and I've no reason to doubt you, that's fair enough. I'm of a different opinion and just pointing out that we haven't seen the same outcry with previous instances, and there has been the same previous instances in the past. A lot of people are jumping on it(not yourself) for the sole purpose of criticising Kenny.
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Originally posted by Gaz Gaz wrote:

Originally posted by Badgersboys9 Badgersboys9 wrote:

The hypocrisy on here is baffling. There's not a chance that posters on here have, in the past, been calling for players deemed good enough for the seniors to stay with the U21s for qualifying campaigns. 

The only time I've seen it was when someone hasn't been playing club football and should drop down to the U21s like its some form of punishment.


When an important U-21 game is on versus an absolute dead rubber for the senior team I'd always prefer the U-21's to keep their strongest players where possible. Especially considering Moran didn't even get 1 minute on the pitch
I'm of the same opinion here (and have no wish to bash Kenny). I think the 21s qualifying would have a bigger benefit to a larger group of players than having Moran not play Saturday and have a cameo tonight.
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