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The O'Shea 
Jack Charlton
I know everything and I’m NEVER wrong
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 Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 1:36pm |
 Het-field wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
Het-field wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
How many of our managers (bar Trap, and that didn't count for much..) have had a CV built "at the top level"? McCarthy is a Championship/lower Premier League manager throughout his career, MON a mid-PL manager, etc. Not exactly "the highest level"... |
MON was crucial in establishing Leicester during their second spell in the PL, he then turned the tide in Scotland and guided Celtic to a European Final. McCarthy won the Championship twice , and buttressed Wolves in the PL for several years, and that doesn’t count his first six years in the Irish job. Both had good CVs. |
And Kenny took Dundalk to the Europa League Group stages (and actually made them competitive within that competition, unlike Michael O'Neill before him with Shams). That is certainly a more impressive achievement than McCarthy has, and up there with MON's. That's without even mentioning that Kenny has recently transformed the fortunes of our long-suffering U-21's in virtually the blink of an eye... |
MON lead Celtic to a UEFA Cup Final. That is an incredibly impressive achievement, especially in 2003 when teams like PSG, Liverpool, Lazio,, Sporting Lisbon Porto, and other Champions League winners were around it. The also beat Blackburn along the way. The treble in his first season after almost a decade of Rangers dominance was impressive. As was the two cup wins in England. No way is qualifying for the Europa League group stages as impressive. |
And what Kenny did is more impressive than that. MON took a huge club with a world class striker and numerous other very good players to Europa League final, that is very impressive. Kenny took a nothing club, with virtually no money and no great players, to the Europa League and made them perform competitively (all while playing good quality football) within it. That is absolutely phenomenal.
Edited by The O'Shea - 07 Apr 2020 at 1:42pm
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Het-field
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Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 1:45pm |
The O'Shea wrote:
Het-field wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
Het-field wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
How many of our managers (bar Trap, and that didn't count for much..) have had a CV built "at the top level"? McCarthy is a Championship/lower Premier League manager throughout his career, MON a mid-PL manager, etc. Not exactly "the highest level"... |
MON was crucial in establishing Leicester during their second spell in the PL, he then turned the tide in Scotland and guided Celtic to a European Final. McCarthy won the Championship twice , and buttressed Wolves in the PL for several years, and that doesn’t count his first six years in the Irish job. Both had good CVs. |
And Kenny took Dundalk to the Europa League Group stages (and actually made them competitive within that competition, unlike Michael O'Neill before him with Shams). That is certainly a more impressive achievement than McCarthy has, and up there with MON's. That's without even mentioning that Kenny has recently transformed the fortunes of our long-suffering U-21's in virtually the blink of an eye... |
MON lead Celtic to a UEFA Cup Final. That is an incredibly impressive achievement, especially in 2003 when teams like PSG, Liverpool, Lazio,, Sporting Lisbon Porto, and other Champions League winners were around it. The also beat Blackburn along the way. The treble in his first season after almost a decade of Rangers dominance was impressive. As was the two cup wins in England. No way is qualifying for the Europa League group stages as impressive. |
And what Kenny did is more impressive than that. MON took a huge club with a world class striker and numerous other very good players to Europa League final, that is very impressive. Kenny took a nothing club, with virtually no money and no great players, to the Europa League and made them perform comparatively (all while playing good quality football) within it. That is absolutely phenomenal. |
I’m absolutely going to disagree. Celtic are a big club, but nit so big as to expect European finals on a regular basis. Even at an amateur level, cup competitions are notoriously hard to get to Finals of, let alone win. The side was good as MON built them after the John Barnes era. That included leveraging his knowledge of English football to get Sutton, Hartson etc. He also turned the tide on a free spending Rangers team. Celtic has been second best throughout the 90s, and MON changed that.
Kenny’s historic record in Europe is very, very impressive and that goes for more than just his time at Dundalk. It’s one of the primary reasons I’m delighted he got the Irish job. but qualifying for the Group Stages of the Europa League and being competitive is not as impressive as the job of work MON did at Celtic.
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Claret Murph
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Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 1:49pm |
Time will soon tell if Kenny is up to it . I think the play off first up is very unfair because if we lose it's a case of here we go again , now get past Slovakia then we will go on to win the next game . Ohhh i still tink Mick would have got us over the line but with two draws and pens .
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The O'Shea
Jack Charlton
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Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 1:55pm |
Het-field wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
Het-field wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
Het-field wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
How many of our managers (bar Trap, and that didn't count for much..) have had a CV built "at the top level"? McCarthy is a Championship/lower Premier League manager throughout his career, MON a mid-PL manager, etc. Not exactly "the highest level"... |
MON was crucial in establishing Leicester during their second spell in the PL, he then turned the tide in Scotland and guided Celtic to a European Final. McCarthy won the Championship twice , and buttressed Wolves in the PL for several years, and that doesn’t count his first six years in the Irish job. Both had good CVs. |
And Kenny took Dundalk to the Europa League Group stages (and actually made them competitive within that competition, unlike Michael O'Neill before him with Shams). That is certainly a more impressive achievement than McCarthy has, and up there with MON's. That's without even mentioning that Kenny has recently transformed the fortunes of our long-suffering U-21's in virtually the blink of an eye... |
MON lead Celtic to a UEFA Cup Final. That is an incredibly impressive achievement, especially in 2003 when teams like PSG, Liverpool, Lazio,, Sporting Lisbon Porto, and other Champions League winners were around it. The also beat Blackburn along the way. The treble in his first season after almost a decade of Rangers dominance was impressive. As was the two cup wins in England. No way is qualifying for the Europa League group stages as impressive. |
And what Kenny did is more impressive than that. MON took a huge club with a world class striker and numerous other very good players to Europa League final, that is very impressive. Kenny took a nothing club, with virtually no money and no great players, to the Europa League and made them perform comparatively (all while playing good quality football) within it. That is absolutely phenomenal. |
I’m absolutely going to disagree. Celtic are a big club, but nit so big as to expect European finals on a regular basis. Even at an amateur level, cup competitions are notoriously hard to get to Finals of, let alone win. The side was good as MON built them after the John Barnes era. That included leveraging his knowledge of English football to get Sutton, Hartson etc. He also turned the tide on a free spending Rangers team. Celtic has been second best throughout the 90s, and MON changed that.
Kenny’s historic record in Europe is very, very impressive and that goes for more than just his time at Dundalk. It’s one of the primary reasons I’m delighted he got the Irish job. but qualifying for the Group Stages of the Europa League and being competitive is not as impressive as the job of work MON did at Celtic. |
Celtic have won a Champions League for god sake!? They are a massive club, had relatively big funds at the time, and most importantly of all, they had one of the best strikers in the world playing for them (along with plenty of other good players like Hartson, Sutton, Petrov, and Thompson). What MON achieved with them was brilliant, but there's no disguising that it was all based around the absolute magic of Larsson. The proof is that when he lost him, he couldn't adapt and Celtic went backwards fast. By contrast, when Kenny lost his marquee player, he adapted his team and went on to qualify them for the Europa League for the first time in their history..
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Fruice
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Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 1:59pm |
The O'Shea wrote:
Het-field wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
Het-field wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
Het-field wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
How many of our managers (bar Trap, and that didn't count for much..) have had a CV built "at the top level"? McCarthy is a Championship/lower Premier League manager throughout his career, MON a mid-PL manager, etc. Not exactly "the highest level"... |
MON was crucial in establishing Leicester during their second spell in the PL, he then turned the tide in Scotland and guided Celtic to a European Final. McCarthy won the Championship twice , and buttressed Wolves in the PL for several years, and that doesn’t count his first six years in the Irish job. Both had good CVs. |
And Kenny took Dundalk to the Europa League Group stages (and actually made them competitive within that competition, unlike Michael O'Neill before him with Shams). That is certainly a more impressive achievement than McCarthy has, and up there with MON's. That's without even mentioning that Kenny has recently transformed the fortunes of our long-suffering U-21's in virtually the blink of an eye... |
MON lead Celtic to a UEFA Cup Final. That is an incredibly impressive achievement, especially in 2003 when teams like PSG, Liverpool, Lazio,, Sporting Lisbon Porto, and other Champions League winners were around it. The also beat Blackburn along the way. The treble in his first season after almost a decade of Rangers dominance was impressive. As was the two cup wins in England. No way is qualifying for the Europa League group stages as impressive. |
And what Kenny did is more impressive than that. MON took a huge club with a world class striker and numerous other very good players to Europa League final, that is very impressive. Kenny took a nothing club, with virtually no money and no great players, to the Europa League and made them perform comparatively (all while playing good quality football) within it. That is absolutely phenomenal. |
I’m absolutely going to disagree. Celtic are a big club, but nit so big as to expect European finals on a regular basis. Even at an amateur level, cup competitions are notoriously hard to get to Finals of, let alone win. The side was good as MON built them after the John Barnes era. That included leveraging his knowledge of English football to get Sutton, Hartson etc. He also turned the tide on a free spending Rangers team. Celtic has been second best throughout the 90s, and MON changed that.
Kenny’s historic record in Europe is very, very impressive and that goes for more than just his time at Dundalk. It’s one of the primary reasons I’m delighted he got the Irish job. but qualifying for the Group Stages of the Europa League and being competitive is not as impressive as the job of work MON did at Celtic. |
Celtic have won a Champions League for god sake!? They are a massive club, had relatively big funds at the time, and most importantly of all, they had one of the best strikers in the world playing for them (along with plenty of other good players like Hartson, Sutton, Petrov, and Thompson). What MON achieved with them was brilliant, but there's no disguising that it was all based around the absolute magic of Larsson. The proof is that when he lost him, he couldn't adapt and Celtic went backwards fast. By contrast, when Kenny lost his marquee player, he adapted his team and went on to qualify them for the Europa League for the first time in their history.. |
Look you could go over this all day Celtic got to a final one got to a group stage both over achieved I feel the final is a bigger achievement any day of the week
Edited by Fruice - 07 Apr 2020 at 2:00pm
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Double Maxim
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Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 2:00pm |
Claret Murph wrote:
Time will soon tell if Kenny is up to it .I think the play off first up is very unfair because if we lose it's a case of here we go again , now get past Slovakia then we will go on to win the next game . Ohhh i still tink Mick would have got us over the line but with two draws and pens . |
It's all new ground for Kenny but a massive opportunity for him if he is allowed to stick around and bring the younger players through that he's worked well with hopefully it will be a springboard for those players.
Edited by Double Maxim - 07 Apr 2020 at 2:02pm
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Baldrick
Robbie Keane
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Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 2:03pm |
Claret Murph wrote:
Time will soon tell if Kenny is up to it .I think the play off first up is very unfair because if we lose it's a case of here we go again , now get past Slovakia then we will go on to win the next game . Ohhh i still tink Mick would have got us over the line but with two draws and pens . |
Who said the playoff is up first.
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The O'Shea
Jack Charlton
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Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 2:05pm |
Fruice wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
Het-field wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
Het-field wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
Het-field wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
How many of our managers (bar Trap, and that didn't count for much..) have had a CV built "at the top level"? McCarthy is a Championship/lower Premier League manager throughout his career, MON a mid-PL manager, etc. Not exactly "the highest level"... |
MON was crucial in establishing Leicester during their second spell in the PL, he then turned the tide in Scotland and guided Celtic to a European Final. McCarthy won the Championship twice , and buttressed Wolves in the PL for several years, and that doesn’t count his first six years in the Irish job. Both had good CVs. |
And Kenny took Dundalk to the Europa League Group stages (and actually made them competitive within that competition, unlike Michael O'Neill before him with Shams). That is certainly a more impressive achievement than McCarthy has, and up there with MON's. That's without even mentioning that Kenny has recently transformed the fortunes of our long-suffering U-21's in virtually the blink of an eye... |
MON lead Celtic to a UEFA Cup Final. That is an incredibly impressive achievement, especially in 2003 when teams like PSG, Liverpool, Lazio,, Sporting Lisbon Porto, and other Champions League winners were around it. The also beat Blackburn along the way. The treble in his first season after almost a decade of Rangers dominance was impressive. As was the two cup wins in England. No way is qualifying for the Europa League group stages as impressive. |
And what Kenny did is more impressive than that. MON took a huge club with a world class striker and numerous other very good players to Europa League final, that is very impressive. Kenny took a nothing club, with virtually no money and no great players, to the Europa League and made them perform comparatively (all while playing good quality football) within it. That is absolutely phenomenal. |
I’m absolutely going to disagree. Celtic are a big club, but nit so big as to expect European finals on a regular basis. Even at an amateur level, cup competitions are notoriously hard to get to Finals of, let alone win. The side was good as MON built them after the John Barnes era. That included leveraging his knowledge of English football to get Sutton, Hartson etc. He also turned the tide on a free spending Rangers team. Celtic has been second best throughout the 90s, and MON changed that.
Kenny’s historic record in Europe is very, very impressive and that goes for more than just his time at Dundalk. It’s one of the primary reasons I’m delighted he got the Irish job. but qualifying for the Group Stages of the Europa League and being competitive is not as impressive as the job of work MON did at Celtic. |
Celtic have won a Champions League for god sake!? They are a massive club, had relatively big funds at the time, and most importantly of all, they had one of the best strikers in the world playing for them (along with plenty of other good players like Hartson, Sutton, Petrov, and Thompson). What MON achieved with them was brilliant, but there's no disguising that it was all based around the absolute magic of Larsson. The proof is that when he lost him, he couldn't adapt and Celtic went backwards fast. By contrast, when Kenny lost his marquee player, he adapted his team and went on to qualify them for the Europa League for the first time in their history.. |
Look you could go over this all day Celtic got to a final one got to a group stage both over achieved I feel the final is a bigger achievement any day of the week
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Of course getting to a final is a "bigger achievement" in an absolute sense, but we're evaluating the job the managers did in a relative sense. On a scale of difficulty, I would say what MON achieved with Celtic was an 7.5 or 8 out of 10; what Kenny did with Dundalk was a 9 or 9.5 out of 10.
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We're decent enough..
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horsebox
Robbie Keane
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Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 2:15pm |
How on earth are you coming to that conclusion  
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It was far across the sea,
When the devil got a hold of me,
He wouldn't set me free,
So he kept me soul for ransom.
na na na na na na na na na
na na na na na na na na.
I'm a sailor man from Glasgow to
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horsebox
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Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 2:29pm |
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I'm open to interpretation on this but and not to try and dismiss or belittle Kenny's achievements in anyway, but Dundalk drew with FH then they then beat BATE 3-1 on agg to qualify for the EL.
Celtic beat Sūduva, Blackburn, Celta Vigo, Stuttgart, Liverpool and Boavaista and then lost in ET against Porto who went into win the CL.
There is simply no comparason at which is the bigger achievement.
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It was far across the sea,
When the devil got a hold of me,
He wouldn't set me free,
So he kept me soul for ransom.
na na na na na na na na na
na na na na na na na na.
I'm a sailor man from Glasgow to
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Double Maxim
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Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 2:38pm |
horsebox wrote:
I'm open to interpretation on this but and not to try and dismiss or belittle Kenny's achievements in anyway, but Dundalk drew with FH then they then beat BATE 3-1 on agg to qualify for the EL.
Celtic beat Sūduva, Blackburn, Celta Vigo, Stuttgart, Liverpool and Boavaista and then lost in ET against Porto who went into win the CL.
There is simply no comparason at which is the bigger achievement. |
I only missed the Liverpool game at Paradise during that campaign they were very special nights and great times beating quality teams and Celtic getting the treble in MONS first season was very impressive when you consider how dominant Rangers had been.
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Double Maxim without doubt the greatest drink in the world
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Claret Murph
Paul McGrath
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Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 2:40pm |
Baldrick wrote:
Claret Murph wrote:
Time will soon tell if Kenny is up to it .I think the play off first up is very unfair because if we lose it's a case of here we go again , now get past Slovakia then we will go on to win the next game . Ohhh i still tink Mick would have got us over the line but with two draws and pens . |
Who said the playoff is up first. |
Goodness you could be right as this changes by the day .
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Het-field
Roy Keane
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Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 2:45pm |
The O'Shea wrote:
Fruice wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
Het-field wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
Het-field wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
Het-field wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
How many of our managers (bar Trap, and that didn't count for much..) have had a CV built "at the top level"? McCarthy is a Championship/lower Premier League manager throughout his career, MON a mid-PL manager, etc. Not exactly "the highest level"... |
MON was crucial in establishing Leicester during their second spell in the PL, he then turned the tide in Scotland and guided Celtic to a European Final. McCarthy won the Championship twice , and buttressed Wolves in the PL for several years, and that doesn’t count his first six years in the Irish job. Both had good CVs. |
And Kenny took Dundalk to the Europa League Group stages (and actually made them competitive within that competition, unlike Michael O'Neill before him with Shams). That is certainly a more impressive achievement than McCarthy has, and up there with MON's. That's without even mentioning that Kenny has recently transformed the fortunes of our long-suffering U-21's in virtually the blink of an eye... |
MON lead Celtic to a UEFA Cup Final. That is an incredibly impressive achievement, especially in 2003 when teams like PSG, Liverpool, Lazio,, Sporting Lisbon Porto, and other Champions League winners were around it. The also beat Blackburn along the way. The treble in his first season after almost a decade of Rangers dominance was impressive. As was the two cup wins in England. No way is qualifying for the Europa League group stages as impressive. |
And what Kenny did is more impressive than that. MON took a huge club with a world class striker and numerous other very good players to Europa League final, that is very impressive. Kenny took a nothing club, with virtually no money and no great players, to the Europa League and made them perform comparatively (all while playing good quality football) within it. That is absolutely phenomenal. |
I’m absolutely going to disagree. Celtic are a big club, but nit so big as to expect European finals on a regular basis. Even at an amateur level, cup competitions are notoriously hard to get to Finals of, let alone win. The side was good as MON built them after the John Barnes era. That included leveraging his knowledge of English football to get Sutton, Hartson etc. He also turned the tide on a free spending Rangers team. Celtic has been second best throughout the 90s, and MON changed that.
Kenny’s historic record in Europe is very, very impressive and that goes for more than just his time at Dundalk. It’s one of the primary reasons I’m delighted he got the Irish job. but qualifying for the Group Stages of the Europa League and being competitive is not as impressive as the job of work MON did at Celtic. |
Celtic have won a Champions League for god sake!? They are a massive club, had relatively big funds at the time, and most importantly of all, they had one of the best strikers in the world playing for them (along with plenty of other good players like Hartson, Sutton, Petrov, and Thompson). What MON achieved with them was brilliant, but there's no disguising that it was all based around the absolute magic of Larsson. The proof is that when he lost him, he couldn't adapt and Celtic went backwards fast. By contrast, when Kenny lost his marquee player, he adapted his team and went on to qualify them for the Europa League for the first time in their history.. |
Look you could go over this all day Celtic got to a final one got to a group stage both over achieved I feel the final is a bigger achievement any day of the week
|
Of course getting to a final is a "bigger achievement" in an absolute sense, but we're evaluating the job the managers did in a relative sense. On a scale of difficulty, I would say what MON achieved with Celtic was an 7.5 or 8 out of 10; what Kenny did with Dundalk was a 9 or 9.5 out of 10. |
Given the way European Competition has involved, “small” clubs from “small” leagues. Apoel, Astana, Bate, Ludigorets. Qarabag etc make the groups stages fairly regularly. Now, that is not to make light of what an achievement that is. But it is to contextualise it, particularly as some of those clubs made a habit of it, including getting to the Champions League group stages. My point is, it is not unchartered.
I take your point and I don’t intend going down the road of dismissing the debate. It’s a scale thing. Real Madrid qualifying for the Champions League isn’t impressive, winning it is. Shaktar impress by getting out of the Group. Qarabag by qualifying for the group stages. Teams from Malta, it’s progressing from the first qualifying round that’s impressive. But that is why Celtic getting to a final, on their scale is more impressive. As was overturning Rangers dominance.
Edited by Het-field - 07 Apr 2020 at 2:46pm
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Left foot
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Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 2:46pm |
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If I'm being honest, to manage expectations here, if Kenny plays any brand of football that isnt 'hoof ball to big man' this for me would be exceeding expectations of an ireland manager at this point.
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MC Hammered
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Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 2:57pm |
I love the ranking of achievements out of 10 O'Shea . This system should be used to settle any further arguments or debates around here.
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El Puto Amo
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The O'Shea
Jack Charlton
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Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 3:11pm |
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Where on earth are you getting that from? I'm ranking the difficulty of jobs. Its all about scale and available resources which is something a lot of people have trouble with. For example, Pep Guardiola winning the league with Manchester City is a "big achievement"; it wasn't necessarily a difficult task, however (given he inherited a side that had already recently won league titles, already contained many world class players, and had virtually unlimited resources to acquire more). If you can't understand that difference, you obviously won't understand the argument.
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We're decent enough..
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Left foot
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Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 3:14pm |
The O'Shea wrote:
Where on earth are you getting that from? I'm ranking the difficulty of jobs. Its all about scale and available resources which is something a lot of people have trouble with. For example, Pep Guardiola winning the league with Manchester City is a "big achievement"; it wasn't necessarily a difficult task, however (given he inherited a side that had already recently won league titles, already contained many world class players, and had virtually unlimited resources to acquire more). If you can't understand that difference, you obviously won't understand the argument. |
You could argue that there is an increased level of expectation that makes it more difficult?
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BrendanD88
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Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 4:28pm |
Delighted Kenny is taken the reigns, have high hopes for him and I know he will make us a better team to watch! He should also be given time to implement his style as it’s not going to come together over night so needs to be backed.
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