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It's the Stephen Kenny Thread

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Nice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by t_rAndy t_rAndy wrote:

Of course we should looking to beat lower seeded teams at home and definitely not lose. But you still have to do your stuff. You can get away with it against really poor sides like we did against Gibraltar last time out and have done through the years in other games as well but you won't get away with it with teams that are just under your level. Man to man, i do still think Ireland are better than Lux and Azerbaijan. But there is not that big of a difference that it's an absolute shock if they get a result against us. They've got results off bigger teams than us in recent years. 

Obviously those two results are the biggest red mark against Kenny's name. Of course against Lux there were some mitigating factors (no fans a big one) but we just didn't turn up and do the business. Against Az, we created enough chances to win but maybe didn't believe in ourselves enough. 
Against Serbia and Portugal, we were competitive and maybe deserved more. 

I'm prepared to look past the NL because it was a crazy set of circumstances. Turning some of those draws like against Bulgaria or Wales into wins I don't really changes where we are as a team now in terms of direction we are going, it's just a more positive stat and ratio people keep throwing up would look better. These qualifiers are what it's all about and we should have a better idea where we stand after a second chances against Lux and Az who are teams we should be beating on paper. Obviously Portugal will always be a hard one so you just look for a good performance in that one.

That's fair enough and obviously I'm an Irish fan, so I would like to think that our lads are better on paper than Luxembourg's, but I'm trying to look at it objectively and while I think our back 5/6 come out on top, their front 5 is probably better than ours, based on where they are playing currently. Their 4 main men are all nice ages, have played together regularly and have scored at least 1 international goal (Rodrigues has 8). 2 are playing group stage CL football this season (Thill (27) and Martins (24)) , the other 2 (Barreiro (Captain at 21) and Gelson Rodrigues (26)) are in the Bundesliga and Ligue Un respectively (he played CL football and won the Ukrainian double last season). It's just not clear to me at all that we are better than them on paper and when you look at the absolute dearth of goals in our team it doesn't inspire any confidence whatsoever. Robinson has 1 in 20, Idah 0 in 10, Connolly 0 in 8ish?, Parrott 2 in 7ish? (both vs Andorra). 0 in 12 for Cullen, 2 in 64 for Hendrick, 1 in 7 for Knight (also vs Andorra). So our first choice front 5 (assuming we stick with 5 at the back) at best (if you stick Parrott in there) has 6 goals between them in 100 odd international games, 3 of which came in one game, a friendly vs Andorra.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Nice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

The Championship is a stronger league than most European leagues such as Belgium, Norway, possibly even Holland now. 

If Luxembourg are any good they wouldn't be ranked where they are or the results they have gotten over the last 2 years.

We should be beating them. Simple as that.  Anyone arguing otherwise is a radicalised Kenny cult member.

We have an embarrassment of riches ourselves.  Champions League stalwarts Anto Stokes, Cillian Sheridan, Darron Gibson, Caoimhin Kelleher all surplus to requirements with the EIRE



This again - I'm no radicalised kenny cult member, but I am a realist. I will repost once again hereunder and then I give up. Some people just dont want to see what is staring them in the face. Quite clearly Luxembourg's results since the beginning of 2018 are demonstrably better than ours. Of our 3 competitive victories, 2 (unconvincing to put it mildly) came against a Rock and the other was widely accepted as extremely lucky vs Georgia.

World rankings mean very little as the following illustrates, I'll re-iterate

"Since the beginning of 2018 Luxembourg have recorded victories (11) (9 competitive/2 Friendlies) over Azerbaijan x 2, Cyprus, Montenegro, Lithuania, Moldova, San Marino x 2, Malta, Georgia and Ireland

Since the beginning of 2018, Ireland have recorded victories (7) (3 competitive/4 Friendlies) over Andorra, New Zealand, USA, Gibralter x 2, Georgia and Bulgaria

Now, I am certainly not claiming Luxembourg are Brazil - Are we back to the usual trite responses? Ireland have beaten nobody of any note since scraping a 1-0 victory away to Wales in October 2017 (That was a full 3 years before Kenny took charge btw). Luxembourg beat Hungary 2-1 in November 2017.

I dont think some people realise just how big a hole we were/are in - Kenny has begun the process of trying to extricate us from that hole, but it is going to take time. Whether or not he is the right man for the job who knows, but people should at least deal in facts when assessing where we are at and why. CLUE - Its not all Kennys fault and this didnt just happen when he took over the reins."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horsebox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by John Nice John Nice wrote:

Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

We still should be beating Luxembourg at home.

Young boys beating United at home, they had an extra player for nearly 70 mins - United will beat them at home and finish ahead of them in the group. Still a great result for YB.

Super goal by Thill last night - obviously a decent player.
Gerson who scored the winning goal, doesn't get his game for Troyes who are 4th bottom of the French league.

Moris - Union Saint-Gilloise
Gracia - Wien
Chanot - NYC
Mahmutovic - Liev
Jans - Rotterdam

Barreiro - Mainz
Thill - Vorskla Poltava
Thill - Sherriff
Gerson - Troyes

Sinani - Huddersfield

When you look at that line up, at home, you should be confident but not complacent of getting 3 points. 

The Portugal away game (if we got the referee that we got against Serbia at home) - we win the game.

No matter who you are playing at home, you should be looking to win those games. 

Btw Gerson Rodrigues has all the look of a lad who is being eased in to the team (may have been injured). He started their last game. he is an attacking midfielder - 3 starts, 1 sub app this season, 1 goal 267 minutes. As detailed previously he was a big member of the team that won the Ukrainina double last season and played in the CL. Newcastle are 4th from bottom of the PL and Hendrick hasnt had a minute in the team since the last international break.

Your bigging up their players to something they clearly are not and dismissing our players completely, Matt Doherty being nothing more than an EPL reserve - he was one of the best wing backs in the EPL for a number of years.

Losing an home to Luxembourg is an unacceptable result. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trap junior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 3:14pm
The teams Luxembourg have beaten are piss poor sides.  Ireland under decent managers beat the minnows home and away.  It's only under Kenny and the likes of clueless Stan are we finding this difficult.

Mick had a 50% win ratio for the Euro Qualifiers

Its 6% under Kenny.  The squad has not disimproved.



You like to use stats then dismiss other stats.   You don't get many points for beating dross. 

That Luxembourg squad is terrible!  All the Kenny Cultists now make out the likes of Luxembourg and Azerbaijan are no mugs.  Do me a favour!



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shakeyshamrock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:


Your bigging up their players to something they clearly are not and dismissing our players completely, Matt Doherty being nothing more than an EPL reserve - he was one of the best wing backs in the EPL for a number of years.

Losing an home to Luxembourg is an unacceptable result. 


The same Doherty that was hooked at half time in that game? The same guy who didn't really play all that much last season, or this? It's fine to say he had 2 good seasons with Wolves, but we didn't play Luxembourg during that time.. 

I see the Luxembourg result very much like a cup upset - it's not nice when it happens, but they come up from time to time - and if you dig into the reasons for it, you will find that the level their players play at and the level ours play at are not wholly dissimilar - the added fact that they've been playing as a team together for a long time and we're in a rebuild and a bit callow, well, it was made for them to do what they did and they took their chance well.. 

I think if you find it "unacceptable" that's about you and your expectations.. I didn't like it as a result, and I didn't enjoy the match, but hey! it's football, you get good results, you get bad ones.. The real test for our players and management is the response to it (and the Aze result) and how they do in the return games.. it's ok to lose, that happens.. but we have to learn from it - we'll find out over the next few games how much we've learned.. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Nice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

The teams Luxembourg have beaten are piss poor sides.  Ireland under decent managers beat the minnows home and away.  It's only under Kenny and the likes of clueless Stan are we finding this difficult.

Mick had a 50% win ratio for the Euro Qualifiers

Its 6% under Kenny.  The squad has not disimproved.



You like to use stats then dismiss other stats.   You don't get many points for beating dross. 

That Luxembourg squad is terrible!  All the Kenny Cultists now make out the likes of Luxembourg and Azerbaijan are no mugs.  Do me a favour!




Mick won 3 competitive games in 3 years, 2 vs Gibralter, 1 vs Georgia prior to Kenny taking over. Dress that up whatever way you want, I have no axe to grind with Mick, the squad was as poor then as it is now. Kenny is trying to address this (it wasn't in Mick's brief tbf to him), it's not easy. We have fallen off a cliff over the last 5 years, we are taking the first tentative steps towards a recovery, patience is required. Over half of the 30 players called up to the last squad were 25 or under and almost 2/3 were not first choice for their respective clubs. The Luxembourg squad is average, as is ours. I know nothing about Azerbaijan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Nice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 3:27pm
Originally posted by shakeyshamrock shakeyshamrock wrote:

Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:


Your bigging up their players to something they clearly are not and dismissing our players completely, Matt Doherty being nothing more than an EPL reserve - he was one of the best wing backs in the EPL for a number of years.

Losing an home to Luxembourg is an unacceptable result. 


The same Doherty that was hooked at half time in that game? The same guy who didn't really play all that much last season, or this? It's fine to say he had 2 good seasons with Wolves, but we didn't play Luxembourg during that time.. 

I see the Luxembourg result very much like a cup upset - it's not nice when it happens, but they come up from time to time - and if you dig into the reasons for it, you will find that the level their players play at and the level ours play at are not wholly dissimilar - the added fact that they've been playing as a team together for a long time and we're in a rebuild and a bit callow, well, it was made for them to do what they did and they took their chance well.. 

I think if you find it "unacceptable" that's about you and your expectations.. I didn't like it as a result, and I didn't enjoy the match, but hey! it's football, you get good results, you get bad ones.. The real test for our players and management is the response to it (and the Aze result) and how they do in the return games.. it's ok to lose, that happens.. but we have to learn from it - we'll find out over the next few games how much we've learned.. 

THIS!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trap junior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 3:34pm
Originally posted by John Nice John Nice wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

The teams Luxembourg have beaten are piss poor sides.  Ireland under decent managers beat the minnows home and away.  It's only under Kenny and the likes of clueless Stan are we finding this difficult.

Mick had a 50% win ratio for the Euro Qualifiers

Its 6% under Kenny.  The squad has not disimproved.



You like to use stats then dismiss other stats.   You don't get many points for beating dross. 

That Luxembourg squad is terrible!  All the Kenny Cultists now make out the likes of Luxembourg and Azerbaijan are no mugs.  Do me a favour!




Mick won 3 competitive games in 3 years, 2 vs Gibralter, 1 vs Georgia prior to Kenny taking over. Dress that up whatever way you want, I have no axe to grind with Mick, the squad was as poor then as it is now. Kenny is trying to address this (it wasn't in Mick's brief tbf to him), it's not easy. We have fallen off a cliff over the last 5 years, we are taking the first tentative steps towards a recovery, patience is required. Over half of the 30 players called up to the last squad were 25 or under and almost 2/3 were not first choice for their respective clubs. The Luxembourg squad is average, as is ours. I know nothing about Azerbaijan.


Yes and Kenny has not won any. 



When we failed to beat Denmark at home under Mick the Kenny brigade were angry that he wasnlt getting the most out of our players.

Now the Kenny disciples are telling us we shouldn't be expecting to win against Luxembourg.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gspain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

The teams Luxembourg have beaten are piss poor sides.  Ireland under decent managers beat the minnows home and away.  It's only under Kenny and the likes of clueless Stan are we finding this difficult.

Mick had a 50% win ratio for the Euro Qualifiers

Its 6% under Kenny.  The squad has not disimproved.



You like to use stats then dismiss other stats.   You don't get many points for beating dross. 

That Luxembourg squad is terrible!  All the Kenny Cultists now make out the likes of Luxembourg and Azerbaijan are no mugs.  Do me a favour!




Since you are so fond of stats.

Stan won 6, drew 6 and lost 5 of his 17 games in charge.  

His wins included Sweden, Denmark, Wales and Slovakia.  His side drew with Germany and Czech Rep.  4 of his 5 defeats were v Chile, Netherlands, Germany & Czechs.  

The performances v Cyprus were embarrassing.  We were awful but still beat San Marino away.  

He was really unfortunate in that Bobby Robson got ill and was not available as much as expected.  He was also a top player for us earning over 100 caps and remains the only Irishman to have played in 3 FIFA World Cups.  Sadly that won't be equalled for a very very long time if ever.  
  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MayoMark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 4:12pm
Why is everything black and white these days?

Why is it that if you're happy to see Kenny continue, you're a part of some cult?

Why is it that if you liked Mick, somehow that means you don't like Kenny?

Can it be that you could have been a fan of both? Or changed your mind at some stage about one of them? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MayoMark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 4:14pm
Or maybe you think we should be beating Luxembourg, and also at the same time think that Kenny could do with more time? 
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How do you join this cult? If theres animal sacrifices I'm out though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horsebox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by shakeyshamrock shakeyshamrock wrote:

Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:


Your bigging up their players to something they clearly are not and dismissing our players completely, Matt Doherty being nothing more than an EPL reserve - he was one of the best wing backs in the EPL for a number of years.

Losing an home to Luxembourg is an unacceptable result. 


The same Doherty that was hooked at half time in that game? The same guy who didn't really play all that much last season, or this? It's fine to say he had 2 good seasons with Wolves, but we didn't play Luxembourg during that time.. 

I see the Luxembourg result very much like a cup upset - it's not nice when it happens, but they come up from time to time - and if you dig into the reasons for it, you will find that the level their players play at and the level ours play at are not wholly dissimilar - the added fact that they've been playing as a team together for a long time and we're in a rebuild and a bit callow, well, it was made for them to do what they did and they took their chance well.. 

I think if you find it "unacceptable" that's about you and your expectations.. I didn't like it as a result, and I didn't enjoy the match, but hey! it's football, you get good results, you get bad ones.. The real test for our players and management is the response to it (and the Aze result) and how they do in the return games.. it's ok to lose, that happens.. but we have to learn from it - we'll find out over the next few games how much we've learned.. 

Why is beating Luxembourg at home an unacceptable expectation?




Edited by horsebox - 29 Sep 2021 at 4:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by Badgersboys9 Badgersboys9 wrote:

How do you join this cult? If theres animal sacrifices I'm out though.

You don't even have to like Kenny to know that someone else coming in will not do much better. Maybe make us more defensive which few people want after 20 years of it.

Personally I enjoy seeing us pass the ball and have some good passages of play. I agree that results have been depressing but from what I've seen in terms of chances created I'm optimistic we can get better results.

I dont want to speak for other people but I feel people see that we are painfully building a new team and are realistic about what that means regarding results.

Really happy with oshea, bazunu, omobamidele, knight and Cullen coming in and I would say that Duffy, Coleman and Doherty haven't played better under all the other managers

But yes... results are bad and that can't be denied.
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If you're currently a member of a cult can you still join this one? I'm already in The Stonecutters.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B6 6HE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by Badgersboys9 Badgersboys9 wrote:

How do you join this cult? If theres animal sacrifices I'm out though.

You sacrifice any hope of ever being competitive. 

You deride anyone who questions the glorious Kenny


All hail Kenny his 'project'

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote E2016 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by Badgersboys9 Badgersboys9 wrote:

How do you join this cult? If theres animal sacrifices I'm out though.


Generally you ignore everything that Stephen Kenny said before taking the job - things that he has now contradicted - such as talking about how qualifying for Qatar was a serious ambition (turns out it wasn't, oops). Or about how we had one of the best defences in Europe (he can't keep a clean sheet with them, wierdly enough). Or about how he would have to prove himself in this campaign if he wanted a new contract (turns out it's the next campaign where he is going to prove himself, just trust him).

The next step is to ignore the results, ignore the fact that we haven't won a competitive game under him and have won 1 game in 15 against a team of semi pros.

The next step is to overpraise the performances, talk about how you can 'see what he is doing' as we lump cross after cross into the box v Azerbaijan, or after Luxembourg run rings around us, or after we put in the most humiliating performance v England in decades, or after we stink the place out v the likes of Bulgaria home and away. Part of this involves being happy in draws and defeat in a way we never have been. So when Mick draws home and away v Denmark and draws at home v Switzerland, this is not good. When Stephen Kenny loses v Portugal, Serbia and gets a completely undeserved draw v Serbia, this is good and 'evidence of progress'.

Next you have to pretend that the job of the senior manager is to revolutionise football in this country, and that the dross that is being served up at senior level is something to be aspired to and replicated. You have to pretend that the senior manager has all these extra responsibilities and influences that he doesn't have - because now you can praise him for these things. He says teams all the way up should play 4-3-3 (when he has tried numerous formations including 5-2-3) and teams shouldn't play 4-4-2 (Quick, tell La Liga Champions Atletico Madrid!).

Next you have to talk up every team we play against into these international footballing behemoths, who for some reason only seem to assume that status when they play us. Because when they play other teams they play and lose as you expect them to. A good strategy here is to talk up minnow leagues, ignore the fact that the Premier League is the best league in the world and that the Championship is very competitive as a result. You definitely want to ignore the fact that teams who do well in the Championship often compete very well in the Premier League after promotion (with largely the same players) - no, because the Championship is bad and our players playing there is bad. Not top league in country = bad. However being playing in Ukraine or the Premier Division in Moldova means you are hot sh*t.

So after you do all that you need to keep saying that Stephen Kenny deserves more time, you need to put down or dismiss all of the Irish football legends who can see he isn't up to it - because what have those lads done anyway, what would they know? You also need to dismiss managers with CV's that Kenny could only dream of because, for example, they got sacked at a club like Forest, when Kenny would never be offered that calibre of job.

So yeah, do all of that and I think they'll have you.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote planning Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

The Championship is a stronger league than most European leagues such as Belgium, Norway, possibly even Holland now. 

If Luxembourg are any good they wouldn't be ranked where they are or the results they have gotten over the last 2 years.

We should be beating them. Simple as that. 

The Championship is an awful standard of football, always has been. It's the second tier for a reason. Unfortunately that's the highest club level most of our players are these days. And it shows on the international stage. 

Of course we should not expect to beat Luxembourg away from home. These days, Luxembourg internationals are scoring goals against Real Madrid in the European Cup, while the only squad player we have up to that level, is being urged to get away from there and go on loan instead, by the fans, and the pundits, and more worryingly, by his own manager. Just to lower the standard of available resources even further. 

McCarthy was hired to get us to the Euros, simple as that. He failed. So reminding us what his win ratio was against the mighty Gibraltar and New Zealand doesn't gloss over the fact he didn't do the job he was appointed for. 

Twice. 
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