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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hotlips_Hoolahan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2021 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by Strazdas Strazdas wrote:

Declan Lynch of the Sunday Indo makes the point that Kenny would have capped Grealish and Rice at competitive level very early on in their international careers - hard to disagree with that.


I keep reading people saying this, but it's not that simple. Rice played the maximum number of games that wouldn't have tied him down, then he was on his way. He was more than likely already toying with the idea of playing for England when he was getting capped at senior level for us. I get the impression he brazenly used the 3 caps he received from us to raise his own profile, and it worked. For all the talk about Sullivan or Gold talking him into playing for England to make himself and everyone around him richer, I think he was more than aware himself of the pluses and minuses of playing for the respective countries. He's shown with his pursuit of a move to Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea or Liverpool that he doesn't have to be talked into doing something that will give him a career boost.

From everything I've read about Grealish, I'm not convinced he would've even accepted a senior call-up for us at any stage. When he was playing for us at underage level, he was circumspect about the prospect of playing for us at senior level in several statements he made. It was made clear that he played for us at underage level because he was playing against older age groups. It was always a calculated decision with him every step of the way and Villa coaches have spoken on this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Strazdas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2021 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by Hotlips_Hoolahan Hotlips_Hoolahan wrote:

Originally posted by Strazdas Strazdas wrote:

Declan Lynch of the Sunday Indo makes the point that Kenny would have capped Grealish and Rice at competitive level very early on in their international careers - hard to disagree with that.


I keep reading people saying this, but it's not that simple. Rice played the maximum number of games that wouldn't have tied him down, then he was on his way. He was more than likely already toying with the idea of playing for England when he was getting capped at senior level for us. I get the impression he brazenly used the 3 caps he received from us to raise his own profile, and it worked. For all the talk about Sullivan or Gold talking him into playing for England to make himself and everyone around him richer, I think he was more than aware himself of the pluses and minuses of playing for the respective countries. He's shown with his pursuit of a move to Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea or Liverpool that he doesn't have to be talked into doing something that will give him a career boost.

From everything I've read about Grealish, I'm not convinced he would've even accepted a senior call-up for us at any stage. When he was playing for us at underage level, he was circumspect about the prospect of playing for us at senior level in several statements he made. It was made clear that he played for us at underage level because he was playing against older age groups. It was always a calculated decision with him every step of the way and Villa coaches have spoken on this.

Probably a lot of truth in that, though Kenny at least would have 'tried' to cap then.

I suppose one good thing will be if he stays on until 2024 is that he will attempt to cap any wavering young 'anglos' who qualify for the team and won't be afraid to throw them into a competitive game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tetsujin1979 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2021 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by Strazdas Strazdas wrote:

Declan Lynch of the Sunday Indo makes the point that Kenny would have capped Grealish and Rice at competitive level very early on in their international careers - hard to disagree with that.
there's more than one dual qualified player in the U21s that haven't been given a senior cap yet, which casts some doubt on that theory
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2021 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by Strazdas Strazdas wrote:

Declan Lynch of the Sunday Indo makes the point that Kenny would have capped Grealish and Rice at competitive level very early on in their international careers - hard to disagree with that.

I always feel Rice would still be with us had we qualified for the 2018 WC. My view has always been that as a dual national he would have been open to either team throughout. The game changer was us failing to qualify, and England's slightly flukey run to the Semi finals. At that point Southgate opened the door to numerous potential players, and that included Rice, and the potential to achieve with a country that he was more than open to playing for, given his heritage.

Grealish is totally different. Grealish was a youth when England seemed to only be interested in players if they were playing with Liverpool, Spurs, or Chelsea, or had some sort of prior relationship with them. He also had three years in the Championship. He had stepped away from us when we were qualifying for tournaments and play-offs. I dont think we were ever going to have Grealish play for us at senior level.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Strazdas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2021 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by tetsujin1979 tetsujin1979 wrote:

Originally posted by Strazdas Strazdas wrote:

Declan Lynch of the Sunday Indo makes the point that Kenny would have capped Grealish and Rice at competitive level very early on in their international careers - hard to disagree with that.
there's more than one dual qualified player in the U21s that haven't been given a senior cap yet, which casts some doubt on that theory

It's possible that he has attempted to cap such players, but they have refused a call up, who knows? It would probably be wise for him to say nothing about it in public.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Newryrep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2021 at 5:55pm
Originally posted by Claret Murph Claret Murph wrote:


If have to remember that we are all equal , or as in Animal Farm " We are all equal but some or more equal than others " Heart

Murph - that’s just supporters clubs and independents, though I hear it’s also within the supporter club groupings 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frabhoy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2021 at 8:16pm
Originally posted by Strazdas Strazdas wrote:

Originally posted by Hotlips_Hoolahan Hotlips_Hoolahan wrote:

Originally posted by Strazdas Strazdas wrote:

Declan Lynch of the Sunday Indo makes the point that Kenny would have capped Grealish and Rice at competitive level very early on in their international careers - hard to disagree with that.


I keep reading people saying this, but it's not that simple. Rice played the maximum number of games that wouldn't have tied him down, then he was on his way. He was more than likely already toying with the idea of playing for England when he was getting capped at senior level for us. I get the impression he brazenly used the 3 caps he received from us to raise his own profile, and it worked. For all the talk about Sullivan or Gold talking him into playing for England to make himself and everyone around him richer, I think he was more than aware himself of the pluses and minuses of playing for the respective countries. He's shown with his pursuit of a move to Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea or Liverpool that he doesn't have to be talked into doing something that will give him a career boost.

From everything I've read about Grealish, I'm not convinced he would've even accepted a senior call-up for us at any stage. When he was playing for us at underage level, he was circumspect about the prospect of playing for us at senior level in several statements he made. It was made clear that he played for us at underage level because he was playing against older age groups. It was always a calculated decision with him every step of the way and Villa coaches have spoken on this.

Probably a lot of truth in that, though Kenny at least would have 'tried' to cap then.

I suppose one good thing will be if he stays on until 2024 is that he will attempt to cap any wavering young 'anglos' who qualify for the team and won't be afraid to throw them into a competitive game.

Martin O'Neill definitely tried to cap him and Grealish got cold feet. He was still tempted by the idea of playing for England. It was referenced in the fourfourtwo special of Grealish published this summer. 

He was never 100 per cent committed while playing for our youth teams. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Landsdowne90 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2021 at 8:59pm
Originally posted by Hotlips_Hoolahan Hotlips_Hoolahan wrote:

Originally posted by Strazdas Strazdas wrote:

Declan Lynch of the Sunday Indo makes the point that Kenny would have capped Grealish and Rice at competitive level very early on in their international careers - hard to disagree with that.


I keep reading people saying this, but it's not that simple. Rice played the maximum number of games that wouldn't have tied him down, then he was on his way. He was more than likely already toying with the idea of playing for England when he was getting capped at senior level for us. I get the impression he brazenly used the 3 caps he received from us to raise his own profile, and it worked. For all the talk about Sullivan or Gold talking him into playing for England to make himself and everyone around him richer, I think he was more than aware himself of the pluses and minuses of playing for the respective countries. He's shown with his pursuit of a move to Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea or Liverpool that he doesn't have to be talked into doing something that will give him a career boost.

From everything I've read about Grealish, I'm not convinced he would've even accepted a senior call-up for us at any stage. When he was playing for us at underage level, he was circumspect about the prospect of playing for us at senior level in several statements he made. It was made clear that he played for us at underage level because he was playing against older age groups. It was always a calculated decision with him every step of the way and Villa coaches have spoken on this.

Sorry going off topic here against thread but I’m fairly sure if we made it to the World Cup in 2018 Rice would have stuck with us. Read somewhere his head was beginning to turn after that tournament when he watched England as a fan. Convenient story for the media? Probably.. it’s and buts ultimately.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lenny82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2021 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

Originally posted by The Huntacha The Huntacha wrote:

About 100 oages of posts throughout this international window and not one poster who wants Kenny sacked has come up with a viable replacement LOL

I'm happy to give Kenny another campaign at the moment. But we need to make a statement in our next few games. Managing players fitness, like he did against Azerbaijan, won't be a valid excuse next time, as we'll only have 2 games, with 1 being a friendly against Qatar. Likewise for the following window with 2 qualifiers. Portugal is a free hit, so he'll be judged (and should be judged) on the games against Azerbaijan and Luxembourg.

I'm sure most of the posters/fans who are supporting Kenny at the moment are doing so because of what he's trying to change at the moment,  rather than thinking Kenny is the only manager who can do this. 
Viable alternative to SK is a bit of a red herring to be honest. You are making an assumption that we can only attract a certain type of manager and we have no chance in getting A,B or C. Who thought we would get a manager of the calibre of Trap at the time or that a lower english championship team could get Bielsa. You'll never know until you ask. 

In hindsight, we should never have been paying the sort of money that Trap, O'Neill and McCarthy (2nd reign) earned, even if it was financed by Denis O'Brien. It was setting an unmanageable precedent, and resulted in the association having to pay McCarthy nearly 2 million for Kenny to take over. I know this is down to Delaney but the point about the amount they were paid still stands.

Our budget prevents us from attracting a marquee name, and realistically, that's the way it should be for a nation our size. The money we paid to managers was outrageous.

When I say viable alternative, I mean some one in our budget who can be an upgrade on Kenny, while also having the same commitment to bringing players through.
I don’t get this commitment on bringing through players he has no one else who ever was in charge now was going to be bringing these lads through 

Rubbish he could easily be picking the following team for
The last few games. 


Randolph 

Coleman Duffy Egan Clark



Doherty Hendrick Arter McClean 

            Hourihane 

            Collins

Subs in games could be 

Shane Long
Robbie Brady 
Cyrus Christie





You could add Richard Keogh, Kevin Long, Johnny Hayes, Scott Hogan, Aiden McGeady to that list of subs. They are all players I could see McCarthy have in the squad and get game time ahead of the likes of Omobamidele, Knight and Idah.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Claret Murph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2021 at 9:53pm
Originally posted by Newryrep Newryrep wrote:

Originally posted by Claret Murph Claret Murph wrote:


If have to remember that we are all equal , or as in Animal Farm " We are all equal but some or more equal than others " Heart

Murph - that’s just supporters clubs and independents, though I hear it’s also within the supporter club groupings 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Huntacha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2021 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Strazdas Strazdas wrote:

Declan Lynch of the Sunday Indo makes the point that Kenny would have capped Grealish and Rice at competitive level very early on in their international careers - hard to disagree with that.

I always feel Rice would still be with us had we qualified for the 2018 WC. My view has always been that as a dual national he would have been open to either team throughout. The game changer was us failing to qualify, and England's slightly flukey run to the Semi finals. At that point Southgate opened the door to numerous potential players, and that included Rice, and the potential to achieve with a country that he was more than open to playing for, given his heritage.

Grealish is totally different. Grealish was a youth when England seemed to only be interested in players if they were playing with Liverpool, Spurs, or Chelsea, or had some sort of prior relationship with them. He also had three years in the Championship. He had stepped away from us when we were qualifying for tournaments and play-offs. I dont think we were ever going to have Grealish play for us at senior level.

Lads who played on the underage teams with him always had the feeling he'd switch. I'd say the same can't be said of Rice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote E2016 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 10:53am
Article by Aidan Fitzmaurice in the Independent today regarding the impending availability of Chris Hughton and the shadow that is likely to cast over Kenny should he do badly in next qualifiers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Banjaxed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 11:02am
Originally posted by E2016 E2016 wrote:

Article by Aidan Fitzmaurice in the Independent today regarding the impending availability of Chris Hughton and the shadow that is likely to cast over Kenny should he do badly in next qualifiers.

Hughton. Confused  His best days are in the past, like his footballing philosophy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Nice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 11:23am
If Kenny doesnt pick up a couple of results then so be it, a replacement may well be required, but Chris Hughton? Absolutely not for me Jeff. Forest have been desperate under him and prior to that both Brighton and Newcastle got rid due to the terrible style of football - would be a backwards step imo!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote You Tell Me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 11:32am
Originally posted by Banjaxed Banjaxed wrote:

Originally posted by E2016 E2016 wrote:

Article by Aidan Fitzmaurice in the Independent today regarding the impending availability of Chris Hughton and the shadow that is likely to cast over Kenny should he do badly in next qualifiers.

Hughton. Confused  His best days are in the past, like his footballing philosophy.

Are they though - because if you look at his managerial record it suggests otherwise?

Here's his season by season managerial record, very impressive overall up to and including last season. Taking into account that Forest are a basket case club these days, he can be forgiven for their current situation in my view.

09/10 - promotion from Championship with Newcastle as champions
10/11 - gets Newcastle to EPL mid table but sacked mid season, Newcastle fans protested against his sacking
11/12 - 4th in Championship with Birmingham, lost playoff semi final
12/13 - 11th in Premier League with Norwich
13/14 - 17th in Premier League with Norwich, sacked in April - they were five points above the relegation zone when he was sacked, they went winless following his sacking and were relegated under Derek Adams
14/15 - joins Brighton in Championship relegation zone in December, keeps them up finishing 20th
15/16 - 3rd in Championship with Brighton, lost playoff semi final
16/17 - 2nd in Championship with Brighton, promoted to EPL
17/18 - 15th in Premier League with Brighton
18/19 - 17th in Premier League with Brighton, sacked at end of season 
19/20 - no management job during the curtailed pandemic season
20/21 - joins bottom of Championship Nottingham Forest in October, keeps them up finishing 17th

Before all that he learnt his trade with 14 years as a coach with Tottenham.

In terms of results relative to the potential of the teams he has managed and the positions they were in when he joined, I don't think there's a single failure on that record.

His teams play simple effective disciplined football with an emphasis on not conceding soft goals, perfect for international football given the limited time available to work with the players. Also suitable for a team who are strong in defence but weaker up front, as we are. And he is at an age where an international job may well appeal to him after years in the club game.

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind he's a viable option for us if Forest let him go. 


Edited by You Tell Me - 15 Sep 2021 at 11:40am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Nice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 11:44am
Ever the pragmatist, he's simply not my cup of tea, but each to their own.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 9fingers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 11:54am
Originally posted by Banjaxed Banjaxed wrote:

Originally posted by E2016 E2016 wrote:

Article by Aidan Fitzmaurice in the Independent today regarding the impending availability of Chris Hughton and the shadow that is likely to cast over Kenny should he do badly in next qualifiers.

Hughton. Confused  His best days are in the past, like his footballing philosophy.
Very unfair on Hughton 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fruice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2021 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by You Tell Me You Tell Me wrote:

Originally posted by Banjaxed Banjaxed wrote:

Originally posted by E2016 E2016 wrote:

Article by Aidan Fitzmaurice in the Independent today regarding the impending availability of Chris Hughton and the shadow that is likely to cast over Kenny should he do badly in next qualifiers.

Hughton. Confused  His best days are in the past, like his footballing philosophy.

Are they though - because if you look at his managerial record it suggests otherwise?

Here's his season by season managerial record, very impressive overall up to and including last season. Taking into account that Forest are a basket case club these days, he can be forgiven for their current situation in my view.

09/10 - promotion from Championship with Newcastle as champions
10/11 - gets Newcastle to EPL mid table but sacked mid season, Newcastle fans protested against his sacking
11/12 - 4th in Championship with Birmingham, lost playoff semi final
12/13 - 11th in Premier League with Norwich
13/14 - 17th in Premier League with Norwich, sacked in April - they were five points above the relegation zone when he was sacked, they went winless following his sacking and were relegated under Derek Adams
14/15 - joins Brighton in Championship relegation zone in December, keeps them up finishing 20th
15/16 - 3rd in Championship with Brighton, lost playoff semi final
16/17 - 2nd in Championship with Brighton, promoted to EPL
17/18 - 15th in Premier League with Brighton
18/19 - 17th in Premier League with Brighton, sacked at end of season 
19/20 - no management job during the curtailed pandemic season
20/21 - joins bottom of Championship Nottingham Forest in October, keeps them up finishing 17th

Before all that he learnt his trade with 14 years as a coach with Tottenham.

In terms of results relative to the potential of the teams he has managed and the positions they were in when he joined, I don't think there's a single failure on that record.

His teams play simple effective disciplined football with an emphasis on not conceding soft goals, perfect for international football given the limited time available to work with the players. Also suitable for a team who are strong in defence but weaker up front, as we are. And he is at an age where an international job may well appeal to him after years in the club game.

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind he's a viable option for us if Forest let him go. 
Don’t tell the truth that suits no one here.


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