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Saipan - Who was right?

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Poll Question: Who was correct in their actions?
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Ray Houghton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tetsujin1979 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by dangere_here dangere_here wrote:

Originally posted by gufct gufct wrote:

Saipan was picked for the players to acclimatise . The temperatures were higher than Japan and there was a further hours time difference.

The players were allowed some rnr and had a couple of nights out before moving onto Japan where they played a friendly before the Cameroon game.Their base in Chiba was world class as I saw it for myself when we arrived there. 



This. Drama aside, it is an often overlooked fact that Saipan was a pre training trip intended to play golf and have a few drinks before getting down to business at the training camp in Japan. Perhaps that was miscommunicated to the squad, but I doubt it as the rest had no problem going on the lash, including a legendary story involving Gary Kelly. Ray Tracey would have been involved there rather than Mick. If Roy had waited til Japan, he'd have nothing to complain about in terms of facilities. 

The squad were told about this before Niall Quinn's testimonial against Sunderland. Keane wasn't there because he was getting treatment on an injury
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bundy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 3:58pm
Mick was 100% right. That was my opinion in 2002 and it’s still my opinion. Keane didn’t want to be there and found his excuse to get out of it. Who I felt sorry for were the likes of Duff, Robbie Keane and the other young players.

Ian Harte had his worst four games ever in an Ireland jersey at that World Cup and I remember an interview with Gary Kelly where he said Harte was totally rattled by the whole episode. Speaking of Gary Kelly, he was the player that stood up and spoke first in support of Mick after the row erupted that night. Every other player rowed in fairly quickly. You can be sure that Keane wanted others to back him up when it all kicked off, the fact that nobody did ends the debate for me. To have 22 other players totally back the manager is enough. Before anyone says they weren’t going to go against Mick, Mick Byrne said that if players approached Mick McCarthy and said Keane was right and they wanted him back then they would have found a solution. 

The players of course wanted Keane there, but on the pitch only. He would have been a malignant presence in the squad throughout the tournament. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

Originally posted by gufct gufct wrote:

The local government in Saipan would have been responsible for the pitches . DHL we’re in charge of transportation of training kit along with the Fai.
Doesn’t matter a dam who was responsible for the pitches if they weren’t of a required standard the base should not have been chosen.

With regards the gear it should have been there days before them and someone sent in advance to have it ready.

Yes the FAI might be responsible but the buck stops with Mick.

Of course the captain of the side would blow their top if this happened.



Think the manager should be more pissed off than anyone else. 
Look, the manager does not answer to the captain.  The captain answers to the manager.  The manager chooses who the captain is!  Keane was way above his station.  The role of captain is not that big of a role and way overstated by you in terms of importance.

Say Stan was captain and Keane was just one of the lads Keane still would have gone nuts imo and walked out.

Of course Keane was right about the crap facilities but its not his place to go insubordinate and throw a wobbly.

As Fergie said at United Keane got above his station and thought he was running the club and taking on managerial roles.




You have hit the nail on the head.  The manager should have been pissed off.  Why was he not.  Why did he accept the shambolic setup.  Why was he not on top of the detail and asking the pertinent questions weeks ago ie what is the pitch like.  If we were not there to train why were we training.  Easy to say it’s about golf and bonding and drinking but if you are training the pitch should be at least safe and up to standard.  No balls and bibs and gear is laughable and mick should have been furious.  I have never once heard him come out and express his annoyance and the shambolic preparations.   That does not excuse Keane’s actions.  Keane was bang out of order but Mick also had a massive failure of management.  Only those blinkered into hating Keane can’t see that.   


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fruice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

Originally posted by gufct gufct wrote:

The local government in Saipan would have been responsible for the pitches . DHL we’re in charge of transportation of training kit along with the Fai.
Doesn’t matter a dam who was responsible for the pitches if they weren’t of a required standard the base should not have been chosen.

With regards the gear it should have been there days before them and someone sent in advance to have it ready.

Yes the FAI might be responsible but the buck stops with Mick.

Of course the captain of the side would blow their top if this happened.



Think the manager should be more pissed off than anyone else. 
Look, the manager does not answer to the captain.  The captain answers to the manager.  The manager chooses who the captain is!  Keane was way above his station.  The role of captain is not that big of a role and way overstated by you in terms of importance.

Say Stan was captain and Keane was just one of the lads Keane still would have gone nuts imo and walked out.

Of course Keane was right about the crap facilities but its not his place to go insubordinate and throw a wobbly.

As Fergie said at United Keane got above his station and thought he was running the club and taking on managerial roles.




You have hit the nail on the head.  The manager should have been pissed off.  Why was he not.  Why did he accept the shambolic setup.  Why was he not on top of the detail and asking the pertinent questions weeks ago ie what is the pitch like.  If we were not there to train why were we training.  Easy to say it’s about golf and bonding and drinking but if you are training the pitch should be at least safe and up to standard.  No balls and bibs and gear is laughable and mick should have been furious.  I have never once heard him come out and express his annoyance and the shambolic preparations.   That does not excuse Keane’s actions.  Keane was bang out of order but Mick also had a massive failure of management.  Only those blinkered into hating Keane can’t see that.   


Couldn’t have put it better myself 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trap junior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 5:19pm
I don't know.  Maybe he was but just thought no point in kicking off about it as there was nothing he could do at that point and just get on with it with.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

I don't know.  Maybe he was but just thought no point in kicking off about it as there was nothing he could do at that point and just get on with it with.





Are those the thoughts of an excellent manager or a nice guy. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

I don't know.  Maybe he was but just thought no point in kicking off about it as there was nothing he could do at that point and just get on with it with.





The same way he did Feic all about the training setup in Dublin out at the airport and the situation on planes. Mick accepted sub standard conditions for years from the fai and he never publicly supported Keane when he was forced to fight for it along with other players.  If I have a member of staff pushing up and driving standard I don’t think they are above their station.  That’s what they are meant to do.  Managing up is a skill too and Keane didn’t have it as he was abrasive and mick didn’t have it as he was too nice.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trap junior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 6:25pm
Yeah he definitely should have been better.  He was old school from Jack's era.  His attention to detail was not there and was a blind spot of his.

No other player kicked up a fuss though except Keane. No other player complained to the manager. Keane's ego went out of control and started to think he was the manager and that everyone should all do what he wants.  He would then go on to do the same at Utd 3 years later.  He got way too big for his boots.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabbsBalls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 7:03pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

I don't know.  Maybe he was but just thought no point in kicking off about it as there was nothing he could do at that point and just get on with it with.





The same way he did Feic all about the training setup in Dublin out at the airport and the situation on planes. Mick accepted sub standard conditions for years from the fai and he never publicly supported Keane when he was forced to fight for it along with other players.  If I have a member of staff pushing up and driving standard I don’t think they are above their station.  That’s what they are meant to do.  Managing up is a skill too and Keane didn’t have it as he was abrasive and mick didn’t have it as he was too nice.  

Fully agree with this. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trap junior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 7:14pm
I think Roy also got the hump when he wanted to bring in some strength and fitness coach and Mick said no.  The team had their own staff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 8:07pm
what a prick coming up with good ideas.  What team would want that 😀😀😀 ffs the fai employed Noel king for years and jacks son 😀😀
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trap junior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 8:22pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

what a prick coming up with good ideas.  What team would want that 😀😀😀 ffs the fai employed Noel king for years and jacks son 😀😀


Roy's not the manager.  The manager picks his own coaching staff.  Roy was acting like a player-manager trying to run the team. 

As Fergie said he was assuming managerial responsibilites
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 9:01pm
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

what a prick coming up with good ideas.  What team would want that 😀😀😀 ffs the fai employed Noel king for years and jacks son 😀😀


Roy's not the manager.  The manager picks his own coaching staff.  Roy was acting like a player-manager trying to run the team. 

As Fergie said he was assuming managerial responsibilites

So an employee suggesting an excellent person who could could improve the prep of the squad is him
Trying to be the manager.  

Jesus Christ trap.  People all the time in all lines of work suggest ways of improving to their manager.  At least the good staff do.  It should be welcomed and a confident manager does welcome it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Healy52003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 9:26pm
Was only 12 for that world cup but this 'we would of won it if Roy was there' is really a load of bollocks and never would of happened

Remember seeing the Germany game in the primary school hall, the Cameroon game was the morning of my confirmation and the Spain game was a dinner time kickoff on a Sunday 

I'm not sure who was right but I do think it should of been different. The rest of the management team should of made Roy and Mick go into a room and f**k each other out of it sorting out the issues in the process. The rest of the squad could maybe of spoken up more. Roy did act a bit rash and can understand why people were pissed off at him. You represent your country in honour and this was at the biggest stage 


Edited by Healy52003 - 23 Nov 2022 at 9:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trap junior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 10:06pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

what a prick coming up with good ideas.  What team would want that 😀😀😀 ffs the fai employed Noel king for years and jacks son 😀😀


Roy's not the manager.  The manager picks his own coaching staff.  Roy was acting like a player-manager trying to run the team. 

As Fergie said he was assuming managerial responsibilites

So an employee suggesting an excellent person who could could improve the prep of the squad is him
Trying to be the manager.  

Jesus Christ trap.  People all the time in all lines of work suggest ways of improving to their manager.  At least the good staff do.  It should be welcomed and a confident manager does welcome it. 


Its undermining the manager.  This is not a David Brent group think.  In football one man should call the shots and that's it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SeanC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 10:17pm
as you were a kid you might not have realised the momentum we built up in that tournament. Deservedly drawing with Germany, the better team against Spain with the winners playing SKorea for a place in the semi. We had a savage opportunity, and showed we were as good as the elite teams there. Hard to believe based on our current standing but we were superb. Mick had us playing great stuff. With Roy in the team who knows what was possible. Btw a lot of young guys may not realise how good some of our low key players were…Gary Breen, Cunningham, Matt Holland etc not to mention how good our better known players were…Duff, Quinn & Keano were in attack. V fond memories. I remember ringing my Dad when I heard Keane was leaving and watching the games with him as we started to roll…reminds us all why we would love another successful team…

Edited by SeanC - 23 Nov 2022 at 10:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B6 6HE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2022 at 10:28pm

The real tragedy of Saipan was the shadow it cast on.a very talented young squad. We didn't qualify for anything for 10 years and by then they were psst it.
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I guarantee Southgate had Kane fully in the loop on all the prep work ahead of the World Cup.  Neville confirmed he was part of a leadership group that was involved in the decisions around where they stayed during the World Cup etc etc.  
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