Ryan Johansson |
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JohnSwift
Kevin Kilbane Joined: 03 Jun 2016 Status: Offline Points: 325 |
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Terri, your post suggests that the FIFA ruling on Kearns lacked nuance. I’d suggest you re-read the documents associated with that case. There’s nothing ambiguous about Irish nationals being entitled to play for their country. |
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The O'Shea
Jack Charlton I know everything and I’m NEVER wrong Joined: 16 Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 9485 |
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What?
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We're decent enough..
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Territorial
Jack Charlton Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
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Most. Oppressed. People. Ever.
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The O'Shea
Jack Charlton I know everything and I’m NEVER wrong Joined: 16 Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 9485 |
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Nice to see your mask slip yet again.
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We're decent enough..
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Territorial
Jack Charlton Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
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Dear God! "Punishing the citizens of historically disadvantaged countries" You'd think from that that eg playing for Stephen Kenny's U-21's in Tallaght was some sort of inalienable birthright straight out ofthe UN Charter on Human Rights. So that you demand that FIFA to ignore their rulebook to accommodate a young lad, likely to become a millionaire soon rather than later, who's the product of Sweden, Luxembourg and ROI - three of the most prosperous countries in the entire world. "But... but... emigration, history, punishment" I hear you splutter. Well I've got news for you, we're not talking about the Coffin Ships to America of the 19th century here. Rather we're talking about players' parents and grandparents i.e. two generations, or 50-odd years. I've lived through those 50 years, and I've seen Ireland transformed from a poor country with serious net emigration to an exceptionally wealthy one which is more likely these days to be a country of net immigration. So that if special consideration needs to be given out by FIFA, it is for eg the poor sods who find themselves forced from their homes by war or famine, have to trek across the Sahara in danger of dying of thirst, to end up in the hands of Libyan slave traders, who sell them on to people smugglers who load them into a leaky boat and launch them into the Mediterranean. And even if they survive that, they either spend years in some sh*tty Greek refugee camp, or have to sneak past brutal border guards in Serbia or Hungary to make their way to countries like (ahem) Luxembourg, Sweden or ROI. Which is why this special pleading for the likes of Johansson is embarrassing to Irish people like myself, demeaning to the whole issue of migration, and downright insulting to half of Africa, Asia and Central America etc, for whom daily choices are not whether they play international football for Sweden or ROI, but whether they eat today, or try to hold out until tomorrow. "Through no fault of their own", as you say. |
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Territorial
Jack Charlton Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
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Just noticed this. Two points: 1. A literal interpretation is the opposite of a nuanced or ambiguous one; and 2. Johansson is also an Irish national, but he's not entitled to play for the Irish one of his particular three countries. Them's the rules, I don't make 'em, or interpret them, I just try to understand them.
Edited by Territorial - 24 Jan 2020 at 12:41pm |
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Conan
Davey Langan I’m not very bright. Joined: 11 Mar 2015 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 917 |
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Lads on here would be pushing the big nations being favoured over small nations narrative only for the fact that Luxembourg are actually a lot smaller than us so have to go down the persecuted famine victims of the distant past route.
We do just find out of the eligibility rules as they are and have qualified for four major tournaments largely because of them, you can't win every one. I don't think it'll affect us much in the future in capping the granny rulers as if you look at the ones ending up playing for us, lately they have been with us since junior level anyway and very seldom defect from England. The likes of Robinson and Crowley were committed to England as long as England were interested in them so its not right they should be picked for us now anyway. I assume Robinson is going to still be allowed to play for us despite not having technically been eligible to switch?
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The O'Shea
Jack Charlton I know everything and I’m NEVER wrong Joined: 16 Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 9485 |
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You really are odious. You come on here attempting to disguise your disdain for Ireland and Irish people, but every so often you let it through in clear view. Yes, Ireland is historically a disadvantaged country and Irish people have suffered severe oppression, consequently we have a fairly depressing relationship with immigration. Pointing that out doesn't make me a mope, but making a joke out of it does indeed give you away for a bigot.
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We're decent enough..
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DeclanDaly
Ray Houghton Joined: 17 Oct 2013 Location: Boston, USA Status: Offline Points: 3254 |
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Yeah, Luxembourg were not favoured in this situation, and probably never will be. Neither will we, we just don’t have the market.”
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You asked if I'd be anyone from history, fact or fiction, dead or alive:
I said "I'd be Tony Cascarino, circa 1995" |
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50%lesssugar&salt
Liam Brady Joined: 02 Sep 2017 Status: Offline Points: 1230 |
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I have to agree with Terri here.
It is embarrassing to constantly be playing the oppressed poor man card. Also, I know very little about Terri, but I would assume he is as Irish as the rest of us.
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Territorial
Jack Charlton Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
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I wasn't making a "joke" out of anything. On the contrary, I was being deadly serious in making the point that contemporary Ireland, North and South, doesn't suffer anything like half the rest of the world from migration, meaning that this sort of "Team 33" special pleading is downright embarrassing, if not deeply insulting when there are eg child migrants drowning in the Med every week. Then again, if you want to live in the last century, I don't suppose I can stop you. As for my "disdain for Ireland and Irish people", why the hell would I feel that, considering I'm every bit as Irish as you are? Or is it because I happen to hold an "unacceptable" political stance that I'm not allowed to be embarrassed when another Irish person plays the poor mouth when he has no place to do so? Get over yourself. P.S. I can't stand 'Mrs Brown's Boys' either. But I suppose that makes me just another humourless Nordie bigot in your book...
Edited by Territorial - 24 Jan 2020 at 2:14pm |
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Territorial
Jack Charlton Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
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Thank you, our posts crossed.
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DeclanDaly
Ray Houghton Joined: 17 Oct 2013 Location: Boston, USA Status: Offline Points: 3254 |
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We are way off topic and this probably belongs in another thread.
This reading of this regulation is clearly to the disadvantage of smaller nations with a history of emigration. Take Ireland out of the equation, would Algeria, Ivory Coast, Gabon, or Tunisia be able to compete at international level if they couldn’t call on outstanding diaspora players? In 10 years, will Syria? This new ruling will benefit France and England hugely - it will even benefit Ireland - but is not fair to nations who do not have a strong domestic league or infrastructure to develop young players to the same level as graduates of Clairefontain. Imagine Gabon without Aubameyang, Ivory Coast without Zaha, Algeria without Mahrez... Also Terrance, I think that MOPE comment was unnecessary and designed to antagonize. You shouldn’t be surprised if it gets under somebody’s skin. Also, rules are there to be disputed. It would be a much worse world if we had to just accept them. |
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You asked if I'd be anyone from history, fact or fiction, dead or alive:
I said "I'd be Tony Cascarino, circa 1995" |
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Jebediah Springfield
Ronnie Whelan Joined: 09 Jan 2020 Location: Toronto Status: Offline Points: 60 |
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Well put Dec.
Rules are certainly there to be contested but the harsh reality is that the FAI are facing redundancies right now so the cost of going to CAS to appeal would a) be too expensive at the best of times for the FAI and b) probably leave a bad taste for lots of people. The usual case of the rich get richer.... all of the larger football nations have the financial clout to challenge/contest and will win more often that not as a result. |
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Territorial
Jack Charlton Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
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Actually, the Rule is there to prevent "Football Tourism" i.e. people with, or acquiring, multiple nationalities picking and choosing which country to play for, not out of some deeply held affiliation, but out of expediency i.e. it suits their CV/bank balance etc. As for the smaller/emigrant nations losing out under the rules etc, you couldn't be more wrong! Formerly, when a player reached 21, he could no longer switch countries, even if he'd only played 5 minutes for his first country in an U-17's match years previously. Similarly, if you played a senior friendly for someone, even as a late sub, that was you tied to them. As a result, European countries with high immigation rates like France (esp) and Belgium were capping young 1st generation kids with African or Caribbean backgrounds to tie them, then discarding them if they didn't quite prove up to it at senior international level. And if they were still good enough for Algeria or Cameroon etc, it was too late, they were tied to their birth country. This obviously suited the big countries, until the African and Asian countries got together in advance of a FIFA AGM in 2004 and "ambushed" the top table with a motion which greatly eased the restrictions on switching. The vote passed, despite wholesale opposition from the UEFA delegates. Henceforth only an appearance in a senior competitive fixture tied you to that team and top nations like France, Germany and England etc are loath to give out token caps in important games to young players who might not be good enough anyhow. I'm pretty sure it was Freddie Kanoute whose example brought this to a head: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Kanout%C3%A9 Since then there has been a flood of young players switching from their European birth country to the country of their parents/grandparent who would not have been permitted to do so pre-2004. And increasingly, these are no longer only the second-raters - England were very interested in giving senior caps to Wilfried Zaha and Victor Moses, for example, but lost out to Ivory Coast and Nigeria respectively.
On the contrary, it was designed to make a serious point, about a serious topic. If one poster feels "antagonised" by it, then that's his problem - there were a couple more who clearly understood what I was saying and sympathised. (The overwhelming remainder of members likely don't give a sh*t what I think - and nor should they have to! )
It has been disputed, by Johansson and his lawyers. They lost.
Edited by Territorial - 24 Jan 2020 at 3:48pm |
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The O'Shea
Jack Charlton I know everything and I’m NEVER wrong Joined: 16 Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 9485 |
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You really are a sad little man. You can barely contain the fact you see this as some sort of weird "payback" for the IFA being put in their place over Kearns. The fact someone with an Irish mother (who has themselves said they want to represent Ireland) is being denied that opportunity (essentially because his mother was born at a time of high immigration due to economic depression) is nothing short of a disgrace. This has nothing to do with "football tourism", it's simply an absurd and unfair application of the rules. If the FAI wasn't such a mess they should have taken this to CAS, and likely put FIFA/Luxembourg back in their box the very same way as they did to your ignorant shower a decade ago.
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We're decent enough..
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DeclanDaly
Ray Houghton Joined: 17 Oct 2013 Location: Boston, USA Status: Offline Points: 3254 |
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Haha - says the guy still going on about the Daniel Kearns case. Honestly, if you don’t understand the motivation for people within the 32 countries to play for Ireland, I don’t think you’ll understand the idea of a French-Algerian playing for Algeria. By harking back to the pre-2004 model, you are unwittingly proving my point. This new interpretation of the rules runs against the greater trend of smaller counties being able/keen to cap diaspora players. I expect Johansson to be one of many cases which eventually leads to a change in the rules (with pressure from bodies in Africa and Asia). As I said before, I’m not really interested in debating on a forum with you. If I ever meet you in person, I would be happy to.
Edited by DeclanDaly - 24 Jan 2020 at 6:44pm |
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You asked if I'd be anyone from history, fact or fiction, dead or alive:
I said "I'd be Tony Cascarino, circa 1995" |
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Territorial
Jack Charlton Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
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FIFA applied the rules literally over Kearns, you won, we lost, that's it. But when it comes to Johansson, you don't want the rules applied literally because, er, someones great, great granda was forced to get on the boat to Australia one time. Or something.
"Disgrace"? "Unfair"? "Absurd"? Get over yourself, man. We've all had ancestors who were forced to emigrate at one stage or another, including me. But I'm f**ked if I can see why someone in my position should be eligible for special treatment just because it was Irish ancestors involved. Fact is, FIFA allows for eligibility on account of ancestry for two generations back. And the fact that someone has to have realised another nationality before he gets to pick and choose applies equally to every country in the world. Including those where war, famine, oppression and poverty are forcing people to emigrate even as we speak i.e. half the world, though not including Ireland, thank goodness.
I suppose they could try, but Johansson and his lawyers have already challenged it - and failed - doubtless due to some sort of devious Brit plot to take it out on poor Mother Ireland. After all, I'm guessing that every other grievance of yours is down to that, too....
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