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Russian Invasion of Ukraine |
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eireland ![]() Ray Houghton ![]() Joined: 12 Feb 2016 Status: Offline Points: 3235 |
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Clown take. Anybody can voluntarily join a defensive alliance. Especially if your countries sovereignty is directly threatened by an unfriendly neighbour.
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MayoMark ![]() Moderator Group ![]() ![]() The NEW angrier Freewheeler Joined: 27 Jan 2009 Location: Castlebar Status: Offline Points: 26107 |
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Lukashenko in serious bother it would seem
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They finally did it man... They killed my f**kin' car...
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Deane ![]() Liam Brady ![]() Joined: 17 Oct 2014 Location: Co Down Status: Offline Points: 2853 |
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It isn't my "take". The question was asked, "what does Putin actually want?" I believe this is what he wants based on what I have read. I even shared an article by an academic that suggests that. I never said countries shouldn't join NATO or have the right to if they so choose, but please continue to read between the lines and create your own narratives.
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Het-field ![]() Jack Charlton ![]() By Appointment to His Majesty The King Joined: 08 Mar 2016 Status: Offline Points: 9857 |
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But some key facts are missing in the article. Including the fact that the pro-Russian government was responsible for the revolution in 2014 over weakening links to the EU. The police then opened fire on protestors, killing 100 of the them. Around that time, then then pro-Russian President fled to start a new independent republic, and when that didn’t happen fled entirely to Russia. So the ‘Western backed coup’ line doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. But neither does the NATO encroachment argument. Especially, when as a counterweight, Russia has been encroaching on adjacent lands for years. Beyond Crimea, Russia had invaded small pockets of Ukraine before 2008, and lands in adjacent countries. Moldova and Georgia both have ‘separatists’ at play, and they are all very much Russian backed and Russian funded, while Russia plays off regions against each other in a divide and conquer approach. The provocation argument doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. Not least because, in a political scientific sense it’s to be noted that it was very predictable who, in the public sphere would argue this point, and it is those who believe that America is bad and responsible for every I’ll that happens in the world.
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eireland ![]() Ray Houghton ![]() Joined: 12 Feb 2016 Status: Offline Points: 3235 |
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Who gives a sh*t what the modern day Hitler wants. The only focus in the West should be giving Ukraine as much help as possible. |
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eireland ![]() Ray Houghton ![]() Joined: 12 Feb 2016 Status: Offline Points: 3235 |
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Feels like a watershed moment today with the Kherson dam being blown up. I'm not sure this benefits Russia long term so have my doubts if they did it. Water to Crimea will be cut off aswell.
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gufct ![]() Jack Charlton ![]() ![]() Trapattoni could manage me any day! Joined: 15 Feb 2009 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 6509 |
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So the Ukraine’s would destroy 80 towns and villages of their own and flood their side of the Dnipro ffs 🙊🙉🙈
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One City,One County,One Club GUFC will be back.
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The GerK ![]() Moderator Group ![]() Razor you wanna pint?...2 minutes later Joined: 09 Feb 2007 Status: Online Points: 19489 |
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Look who blew up Nord steam 2
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The Count never won the Young Scientist of the Year award. It still haunts him to this very day, FACT
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Bandwagon ![]() Liam Brady ![]() ![]() Joined: 07 Feb 2021 Location: Dublin Status: Online Points: 2947 |
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I wouldn't believe a word the US has to say, it was probably them who did it but even if it was Ukraine you can at least see some reasoning behind it. As for the dam, I fail to see a single thing they could possible gain by doing it themselves. They spent months building up to a counteroffensive they were about to kick off and then the Russian controlled dam is taken out? Why would they slow themselves down? Would it not heavily favour Russia forces to buy some time and regroup in numbers?
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Deane ![]() Liam Brady ![]() Joined: 17 Oct 2014 Location: Co Down Status: Offline Points: 2853 |
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It wouldn't be the first time Ukraine considered blowing up a damn in a counter offensive.
![]() Edited by Deane - 08 Jun 2023 at 8:28am |
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The GerK ![]() Moderator Group ![]() Razor you wanna pint?...2 minutes later Joined: 09 Feb 2007 Status: Online Points: 19489 |
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I wouldn't believe a word from any of them
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The Count never won the Young Scientist of the Year award. It still haunts him to this very day, FACT
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Deane ![]() Liam Brady ![]() Joined: 17 Oct 2014 Location: Co Down Status: Offline Points: 2853 |
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This was the reasonably debate I was looking for not the other responses ![]() There is no doubt there was a move by Russia last minute to prevent Ukraine creating closer ties with EU and the aftermath was atrocious I agree. There is also no doubt the US took advantage of this situation for their own gain. The main issue with NATO encroachment is that there was an agreement that it wouldn't happen. Whatever about the rights of sovereign nations to join. Agreements shouldn't be broken without new agreements and discussions. Moldova's separatist state of Transnistria existed from 1990 whilst Moldova only gained independence in 1991 so I am not sure how this could be considered a new thing or a recent move by Russia or indeed Putin as it far predates his leadership. I assume Transnistria due to its political stance does most of its business with Russia which with a little bit of spin can be described as "funding separatists". Of course there will be a proportion of the population in countries formerly part of the Russia Empire that would favour the old status-quo. Would you describe the Provisional IRA as separatists funded by Libya and the US? |
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FrankosHereNow ![]() Roy Keane ![]() ![]() I like Klopp Joined: 02 Jun 2011 Location: El Sadar Status: Online Points: 12034 |
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If Latvia was not in NATO, do you think it would have been invaded by Russia by now?
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YBIG Quiz Champion 2016, 2017 & 2018.
As You Were Three in a row |
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Het-field ![]() Jack Charlton ![]() By Appointment to His Majesty The King Joined: 08 Mar 2016 Status: Offline Points: 9857 |
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I think its the least you're entitled to. I also think that legitimate debate on the conflict is very important.
But the bigger problem is not the US's actions here, or any advantage taken. It is aggressive pro-Russian action, which resulted in a popular uprising and revolution.
But there was no formal agreement. And Russia themselves have been open to NATO in the past. This is an attempt to assert dominance over a regional block, but the Russia, using the alliance as some sort of counterweight. But one formal agreement that has been disregarded is the Budapest Agreement, where Ukraine took non-proliferative action vis-a-vis nuclear weapons, in exchange for a non-aggression pact. Funny how Russia decided to deliberately misinterpret the agreement when they stationed nuclear weapons. Lavrov even claimed there is only one obligation under the agreement, when in fact there are six. He claimed that the only obligation was for Russia not to attack with nuclear weapons. funny how the vatniks in the media seem concerned that without 'peace' (i.e. their preferred type of peace) there may be nuclear warfare. Russia has invented this 'threat' regarding NATO to whip up sentiment. It doesn't make any sense, not least because of how difficult it is to join NATO and decisions in the past regarding Ukraine and NATO.
I dont need to spin it that way. Russia basically pays for Transnistria's existence, which is a fair price as far as they're concerned in order to have a satellite region in an adjacent country. Estimates from 2015 suggested that 70% of Transnistria's budget is from Moscow. It is also seen as heavily reliant on a form of black market. So its less about trade, and more about Russia underwriting its existence.
Thats true.
No, I wouldn't. Not least because the armed struggle of the IRA is not comparable to what is happening in Russia and Ukraine right now. An analogy would by under a United Ireland, the UK gaslighting unionist populations and regions into believing that they are under existential threat from local nationalists. Under this guise, they would illegally invade, calling it a 'special mission' to protect the gaslight population, demanding independence for the regions in which these populations live. Thereafter, if given independence, the UK exchequer basically underwrites the regions and covers the majority of their budget. |
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eireland ![]() Ray Houghton ![]() Joined: 12 Feb 2016 Status: Offline Points: 3235 |
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I was going to reply to Deane with your point regarding the IRA but wasn't bothered. These Russian sympathisers would make you wonder.
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Het-field ![]() Jack Charlton ![]() By Appointment to His Majesty The King Joined: 08 Mar 2016 Status: Offline Points: 9857 |
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As a general point about Western based vatniks, they are guilty of a pattern of behaviour when it comes to these conflicts. Its as predictable as night follows day. They were guilty of the same type of narrative during the disintegration of Yugoslavia, and before that willingly shilled for Saddam when Iraq illegally invaded Kuwait, which prompted desert storm. You'll also notice how they never consider the conflict in Syria as a 'proxy war', in spite of Russia backing the Assad regime. In fact, their attitudes towards Ukraine is a projection of their view on Syria. The first refuge of the propagandist was to claim that Russia wouldn't invade Ukraine. After that it was to trot out the usual talking points, which explain away the invasion. Lets be honest, there is nothing more contradictory than a politically focussed twitter account, with a number of flags in the handle namely Palestine, Catalonia, and Kurdistan, and alongside them, the Russian flag. As the old song goes 'one of these things is not like the others.'
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MayoMark ![]() Moderator Group ![]() ![]() The NEW angrier Freewheeler Joined: 27 Jan 2009 Location: Castlebar Status: Offline Points: 26107 |
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Very interesting
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They finally did it man... They killed my f**kin' car...
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Het-field ![]() Jack Charlton ![]() By Appointment to His Majesty The King Joined: 08 Mar 2016 Status: Offline Points: 9857 |
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Miggeldy on collision course with the Government over statements about the Consultative Forum on security policy. I suspect this conflict will indeed be what forces a debate on neutrality.
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