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Rugby World Cup Bid 2023

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by roverstillidie roverstillidie wrote:

 
Tallaght would definitely be offered as it would raise the profile, bring a big event to the area and could justify further work. Dalyer will be onstream then too However that would mean 5 stadia in Dublin even though all have the bells and whistles others don't have.
 
I think they have simply gone with the biggest venues regardless of standard of stadium and suitability of the town and I would question if people will travel to Thurles, Castlebar or Derry for 'smaller' games. What are the corporate facilities like in Celtic Park?

Three of the NZ venues were smaller than what is currently mooted as the smallest  Irish one in Ravenhill, but to be fair, I don't think they had many other options.
 
The reality is that the GAA would be the big winners here, which is not ideal either in terms of legacy.

The issue of legacy is not particularly big in the RWC. England 2015 swept the nation, engendered and renewed a love of the game with the oval ball, was played, came to an end, and moved on. The same in France 2007. RWC 99 is one of the few tournaments with a legacy, namely the Millennium Stadium, and 1995 has more of a mythical legacy rather than any tangible difference. Ultimately, it is different from a cultural point of view to the Olympic Games which sees legacy as a major part of its appeal.
How many modern Olympic Games haven't failed from a legacy point of view though? I would say very, very few.
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

How many modern Olympic Games haven't failed from a legacy point of view though? I would say very, very few.

I wouldn't even for a second suggest they have been successful attempts. The legacy of Athens 2004 is a legacy of profligate and needless expenditure to host a historical vanity project. London 2012 was one of the few truly sensible Olympic Games which has maintained a degree of legacy. The rest are either token, or like Greece, and undoubtedly Rio will be legacies of genuine damage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SByrne24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 1:24pm
An outstanding advertisement
Liam Neeson should swing it in our direction. It' would be magnificent if we can hold a world wide tournament it would be amazing actually, it made me truly proud to be Irish watching that short video.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

How many modern Olympic Games haven't failed from a legacy point of view though? I would say very, very few.

I wouldn't even for a second suggest they have been successful attempts. The legacy of Athens 2004 is a legacy of profligate and needless expenditure to host a historical vanity project. London 2012 was one of the few truly sensible Olympic Games which has maintained a degree of legacy. The rest are either token, or like Greece, and undoubtedly Rio will be legacies of genuine damage.
Certainly has left a long and lasting legacy at West Ham..........Joking aside, it has seemingly done a lot for the participation of the public in sport, albeit at an entirely unnecessary cost. Maybe Sydney had an impact too, especially culturally thanks to Cathy Freeman, all others have been as disastrous as recent World Cups. Poor old Rio.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Stalin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 1:32pm
Couple of points, mainly in response to RTID:
 
1. Comparisons with France and their infrastructure are ludicrous. Infrastructure is not the only factor in the decision. NZ is the comparator and they hosted it in stadia with grass banks and in towns that shut at 9pm. NZ towns make Thurles and Castlebar seem like Vegas. All of the Irish towns proposed can easily cater for the numbers.
 
2. Terryland, Tallaght etc. is equally ludicrous. The hosts make their money from ticket sales and so the incentive is to maximise the seats. Irish people are event junkies and will pack out Castlebar for Fiji vs. russis just to be part of the world cup experience
 
3. Bearing point 2 in mind, the organsiers don't care about legacy issues. Most sport orgs don't - if they did we wouldn't have the Olympics or football world cups in South Africa or Brazil. It's about bums on seats.
 
4. We'll win the bid. France are the only opposition and they had it in 2007. Now they've a very expensive and real terrorist threat to deal with it amongst other things. Ireland offers stability and money and Govt backing. This is in the bag.
 
5. For clarity sake I should add I can't stand rugby...do hope we win though as I think this bid could kick-start some much needed infrastructural investment in the country.


Edited by Joe Stalin - 15 Nov 2016 at 1:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Certainly has left a long and lasting legacy at West Ham..........Joking aside, it has seemingly done a lot for the participation of the public in sport, albeit at an entirely unnecessary cost. Maybe Sydney had an impact too, especially culturally thanks to Cathy Freeman, all others have been as disastrous as recent World Cups. Poor old Rio.

That which was purpose built for 2012 is used on the regular, which has been a very good thing. Facilities in both the area around Stratford and in places like Loughton are constantly used, and have significantly increased the participate in sports which are highly prized Olympic Games. This includes the likes of Wapping Hockey Club, who I understand have grown to something like 20 senior teams, with a waiting list to boot. The venues which would struggle to maintain themselves financially after the games were temporary, and have been taken down. On most weekends the Olympic Park is full of elite amateur, and purely amateur sports people. As such, I believe that from an amateur point of view, it is money very well spent, particularly as with transport infrastructure, it is a facility available to anybody in the London area, albeit with various transport times.

It should not have been held in Rio. The locals were simply too poor to support the games in the way that Londoners did, and as such there was no demand for tickets. I would see Qatar 2022 going exactly the same way, as I foresee many supporters simply not making the trip for a number of reasons.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Certainly has left a long and lasting legacy at West Ham..........Joking aside, it has seemingly done a lot for the participation of the public in sport, albeit at an entirely unnecessary cost. Maybe Sydney had an impact too, especially culturally thanks to Cathy Freeman, all others have been as disastrous as recent World Cups. Poor old Rio.

That which was purpose built for 2012 is used on the regular, which has been a very good thing. Facilities in both the area around Stratford and in places like Loughton are constantly used, and have significantly increased the participate in sports which are highly prized Olympic Games. This includes the likes of Wapping Hockey Club, who I understand have grown to something like 20 senior teams, with a waiting list to boot. The venues which would struggle to maintain themselves financially after the games were temporary, and have been taken down. On most weekends the Olympic Park is full of elite amateur, and purely amateur sports people. As such, I believe that from an amateur point of view, it is money very well spent, particularly as with transport infrastructure, it is a facility available to anybody in the London area, albeit with various transport times.

It should not have been held in Rio. The locals were simply too poor to support the games in the way that Londoners did, and as such there was no demand for tickets. I would see Qatar 2022 going exactly the same way, as I foresee many supporters simply not making the trip for a number of reasons.
I have heard and read all sorts of statistics and personal views, all of which contradict each other, about the use of facilities since the Olympics, like most things the truth lies somewhere in the middle. This article, which I remember reading at time of publication, seems a fair enough summary. http://www.theguardian.com/cities/davehillblog/2015/jul/23/london-olympic-legacy-three-years-on-2012-games

One thing I will say, from a purely personal point of view, Stratford is a far more hideous place now than when I first visited in 2010.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irelandfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 2:01pm
This is Rugby country is finally becoming a reality, maybe we'll have a nice double away header in a far flung destination Thumbs Up
I'm the gaffer whatever I say goes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 2:10pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I have heard and read all sorts of statistics and personal views, all of which contradict each other, about the use of facilities since the Olympics, like most things the truth lies somewhere in the middle. This article, which I remember reading at time of publication, seems a fair enough summary. http://www.theguardian.com/cities/davehillblog/2015/jul/23/london-olympic-legacy-three-years-on-2012-games

One thing I will say, from a purely personal point of view, Stratford is a far more hideous place now than when I first visited in 2010.

Stratford is certainly now a two speed location, which would appear to be part of intended re-generation. Whether that comes to fruition or not will only be told by 2028-2032 at the earliest.

However, I would be of the view that the London legacy is far greater and more professionally executed than many that have gone before. The article does acknowledge the public usage and availability of the facilities, while whether you agree with the use of the Stadium or not, between football, rugby league and union, athletics (the World Championships will bring out the punters en masse), and music, along with a variety of public events (10k runs etc) this is a far better and more effective use of the venue than simply letting it go to wrack and ruin, or prop up an athletics stadium entirely on public funds, which never gets filled. I personally think the brass tax legacy of London 2012 is highly commendable
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roverstillidie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 2:14pm
The use of facilities argument after the fact is moot here - there are no new venues planned and the GAA venues will be as underused as they ever were but with standards brought up a notch.
 
I just find it quite short termist that the IRFU are (potentially) happy to give the GAA a huge bounce that they seem to have no interest in keeping in house.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by roverstillidie roverstillidie wrote:

The use of facilities argument after the fact is moot here - there are no new venues planned and the GAA venues will be as underused as they ever were but with standards brought up a notch.
 
I just find it quite short termist that the IRFU are (potentially) happy to give the GAA a huge bounce that they seem to have no interest in keeping in house.

But if there is no need for new venues, which there really isn't, there is no need to set out to build from scratch a stadium, at undoubtedly a far greater cost, and which is liable to be a white elephant. 

A competition like this does not really need a long term vision. Particularly as facilities in Irish Rugby are already World Class, and this is at schools level before professional and senior rugby is involved in the discussion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I have heard and read all sorts of statistics and personal views, all of which contradict each other, about the use of facilities since the Olympics, like most things the truth lies somewhere in the middle. This article, which I remember reading at time of publication, seems a fair enough summary. http://www.theguardian.com/cities/davehillblog/2015/jul/23/london-olympic-legacy-three-years-on-2012-games

One thing I will say, from a purely personal point of view, Stratford is a far more hideous place now than when I first visited in 2010.

Stratford is certainly now a two speed location, which would appear to be part of intended re-generation. Whether that comes to fruition or not will only be told by 2028-2032 at the earliest.

However, I would be of the view that the London legacy is far greater and more professionally executed than many that have gone before. The article does acknowledge the public usage and availability of the facilities, while whether you agree with the use of the Stadium or not, between football, rugby league and union, athletics (the World Championships will bring out the punters en masse), and music, along with a variety of public events (10k runs etc) this is a far better and more effective use of the venue than simply letting it go to wrack and ruin, or prop up an athletics stadium entirely on public funds, which never gets filled. I personally think the brass tax legacy of London 2012 is highly commendable
As someone who used to go and watch Orient, as well as the FA's decision to ignore their own rules added to my own dislike of West Ham means I was never going to be a fan of football there, otherwise it is hard to disagree from a sporting point of view, I guess the housing issue and any proposed re-generation is part of a much deeper housing problem in London. Stratford used to be a bit of a kip, like other nearby areas, now it is a completely soulless kip.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zizu Kilbane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 2:27pm
Effectively this is a GAA bid with the IRFU as a minority partner, and not the other way around.
"Sometimes, sh*t happens, someone's gotta deal with it, and who ya gonna call?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

As someone who used to go and watch Orient, as well as the FA's decision to ignore their own rules added to my own dislike of West Ham means I was never going to be a fan of football there, otherwise it is hard to disagree from a sporting point of view, I guess the housing issue and any proposed re-generation is part of a much deeper housing problem in London. Stratford used to be a bit of a kip, like other nearby areas, now it is a completely soulless kip.

I think the sporting value is something that I greatly value, particularly from an amateur level. Its quite incredible the number of people who are amateur sports-players who can claim to have used Olympic facilities, and who really enjoy the prospect of potentially using them. The numbers of people who have used the running track in the stadium, or the adjoining facilities is quite special, and is certainly promoting sport in ways that were not previously possible.

Ultimately, I would view it as a soulless area, with a significant emphasis on sport, rather than what it used by like out there. Hence, I find it hard not to support what it has become.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

As someone who used to go and watch Orient, as well as the FA's decision to ignore their own rules added to my own dislike of West Ham means I was never going to be a fan of football there, otherwise it is hard to disagree from a sporting point of view, I guess the housing issue and any proposed re-generation is part of a much deeper housing problem in London. Stratford used to be a bit of a kip, like other nearby areas, now it is a completely soulless kip.

I think the sporting value is something that I greatly value, particularly from an amateur level. Its quite incredible the number of people who are amateur sports-players who can claim to have used Olympic facilities, and who really enjoy the prospect of potentially using them. The numbers of people who have used the running track in the stadium, or the adjoining facilities is quite special, and is certainly promoting sport in ways that were not previously possible.

Ultimately, I would view it as a soulless area, with a significant emphasis on sport, rather than what it used by like out there. Hence, I find it hard not to support what it has become.
It had a bit of character but it has gone, same thing could be said of London in general though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 2:39pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

It had a bit of character but it has gone, same thing could be said of London in general though.

The East End still has plenty of character. But I appreciate that since the 1980s there has been significant change between the regeneration of the City, the building up of Canary Wharf, and indeed the Olympic Project.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

It had a bit of character but it has gone, same thing could be said of London in general though.

The East End still has plenty of character. But I appreciate that since the 1980s there has been significant change between the regeneration of the City, the building up of Canary Wharf, and indeed the Olympic Project.
Taking this way off-topic but I find nearly all of London soulless now, something I once would have only accused small pockets of being. Even Brixton, which was my favourite place, is being overrun with ****s. Try to avoid the place these days, although I am meant to go to Orient on New Year's Eve, if they are still going.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by roverstillidie roverstillidie wrote:

 
Tallaght would definitely be offered as it would raise the profile, bring a big event to the area and could justify further work. Dalyer will be onstream then too However that would mean 5 stadia in Dublin even though all have the bells and whistles others don't have.
 
I think they have simply gone with the biggest venues regardless of standard of stadium and suitability of the town and I would question if people will travel to Thurles, Castlebar or Derry for 'smaller' games. What are the corporate facilities like in Celtic Park?

Three of the NZ venues were smaller than what is currently mooted as the smallest  Irish one in Ravenhill, but to be fair, I don't think they had many other options.
 
The reality is that the GAA would be the big winners here, which is not ideal either in terms of legacy.

The issue of legacy is not particularly big in the RWC. England 2015 swept the nation, engendered and renewed a love of the game with the oval ball, was played, came to an end, and moved on. The same in France 2007. RWC 99 is one of the few tournaments with a legacy, namely the Millennium Stadium, and 1995 has more of a mythical legacy rather than any tangible difference. Ultimately, it is different from a cultural point of view to the Olympic Games which sees legacy as a major part of its appeal.
How many modern Olympic Games haven't failed from a legacy point of view though? I would say very, very few.

Rome and Munich probably.
Barcelona definitely (the most successful example).
Sydney (arguably).


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