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Most over rated player in world football

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Forum Name: Rest of The World
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Topic: Most over rated player in world football
Posted By: Roberto Baggio
Subject: Most over rated player in world football
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2020 at 9:34pm
A few days ago Brendan commented that it was Robert Firmino for him, it got me thinking.
 
Paul Pogba would be mine



Replies:
Posted By: BigStrongMan
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2020 at 9:37pm
Harry Maguire has to run him close

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Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2020 at 9:38pm
Wes Hoolahan

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Posted By: BigStrongMan
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2020 at 9:39pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Wes Hoolahan
2 week holiday 

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Posted By: Roberto Baggio
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2020 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by BigStrongMan BigStrongMan wrote:

Harry Maguire has to run him close
 
I don't know many that really rate him. But I agree. In the last world cup in an English defence containing Walker, Stones and Ashley Young he was the most awkward looking in possession. He suddenly somehow became an £80m player
 
 


Posted By: Trap junior
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2020 at 9:43pm
Jack ByrneLOL


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Posted By: BrendanD88
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2020 at 9:46pm
Top 5!

1) Firmino
2) Kante
3) Sterling
4) Benzema
5) Lukaku


Posted By: Cabra Hoop
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2020 at 9:46pm
Frank McAvennieWink

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Posted By: King_Kenny
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2020 at 9:51pm
Originally posted by BigStrongMan BigStrongMan wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Wes Hoolahan
2 week holiday 
Exempt!


Posted By: Trap junior
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2020 at 9:57pm
Pogba is a good shout.  Virgil Van Dyke based off tonight LOL


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Posted By: BabbsBalls
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2020 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by BigStrongMan BigStrongMan wrote:

Harry Maguire has to run him close

He’s shockingly bad. Few headers in the World Cup and he’s worth €80m 


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Posted By: Green Devil
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2020 at 10:23pm
Paul Pogba by an absolute mile, he's no more than a 1 in 4/1 in 5 man in terms of good performances.

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Posted By: sid waddell
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 12:27am
Pogba has been a key player in both a Juventus team which unexpectedly reached a European Cup final and a team that won the World Cup

With the right manager to guide him he'd be unstoppable, his problem is he made a disastrous career move

I have a feeling Timo Werner isn't going to cut it in the Premier League




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Edited by Trigboy 10 at 10:03pm


Posted By: Zinedine Kilbane 110
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 7:21am
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Pogba has been a key player in both a Juventus team which unexpectedly reached a European Cup final and a team that won the World Cup


He was brilliant for France in that World Cup and he has shown on occasion at Man U he is a great player.

I’ve said it many times : Pogba plays for Pogba. 
When he wants to play he is a fantastic player as he has shown for France.

Man U can’t get the best out of him so should sell him. 

I like Harry as he tries to play football and take it out of defence. The problem is he is just not very comfortable on the ball. 


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Posted By: ShamtheRam
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 7:26am
Pogba be very high on my list. As far as I can see he's never been consistent enough to be classed as world class.

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Posted By: The Huntacha
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 8:12am
Originally posted by Zinedine Kilbane 110 Zinedine Kilbane 110 wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Pogba has been a key player in both a Juventus team which unexpectedly reached a European Cup final and a team that won the World Cup


He was brilliant for France in that World Cup and he has shown on occasion at Man U he is a great player.

I’ve said it many times : Pogba plays for Pogba. 
When he wants to play he is a fantastic player as he has shown for France.

Man U can’t get the best out of him so should sell him. 

I like Harry as he tries to play football and take it out of defence. The problem is he is just not very comfortable on the ball. 

He was also surrounded by brilliant players in that France team. Kante and Matuidi/Toliso did the dirty work for him, giving him the freedom to attack. He had a decent tournament but I think that gets exaggerated because he scored a good goal in the final.


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Posted By: ChesterCopperpot
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 9:57am
Henderson has to be up there, a good player at best
Maguire for 80mil puts him in the category
And Neymar, but mostly because he's a ****


Posted By: Claret Murph
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 10:10am
Originally posted by ChesterCopperpot ChesterCopperpot wrote:

Henderson has to be up there, a good player at best
Maguire for 80mil puts him in the category
And Neymar, but mostly because he's a ****
Yep spot on .
 
Would love to play one game against , i would kick him once and would not get up from it Approve


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Posted By: sid waddell
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 10:45am
Julian Draxler

My impression of this guy was that he was a young up and coming talent, but in reality he's been the proverbial boy wonder for his entire career

He's 27

I honestly can't remember a single thing he's done in his career

That Adrien Rabiot chap was similarly talked up for a while until it became obvious that he was happy to steal a living as a professional


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Edited by Trigboy 10 at 10:03pm


Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 10:50am
Originally posted by Claret Murph Claret Murph wrote:

Originally posted by ChesterCopperpot ChesterCopperpot wrote:

Henderson has to be up there, a good player at best
Maguire for 80mil puts him in the category
And Neymar, but mostly because he's a ****
Yep spot on .
 
Would love to play one game against , i would kick him once and would not get up from it Approve
LOL That would really learn him.


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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.


Posted By: Shedite
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 10:53am
Timo Werner. The latest in a long line of "but he scored loads of goals in Germany/Holland" flops


Posted By: Roberto Baggio
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 10:53am
Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Timo Werner. The latest in a long line of "but he scored loads of goals in Germany/Holland" flops
 
He's only had 3 or 4 games, and is being played wide on the left strangely
 
 


Posted By: BrendanD88
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 10:57am
Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Timo Werner. The latest in a long line of "but he scored loads of goals in Germany/Holland" flops
 
He's only had 3 or 4 games, and is being played wide on the left strangely
 
 

Scored goals in the Bundesliga, Champions League and at International level! 4 league games in and he’s a flopLOL


Posted By: sid waddell
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 11:04am
Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Timo Werner. The latest in a long line of "but he scored loads of goals in Germany/Holland" flops
Is it a long line?

Strikers coming from the Dutch league can be hit or miss alright

You can get a Kezman or a Depay, but then again you can get a Suarez or a van Nistelrooy

And the weird thing is that there seems to be no quality control standard that can indicate which will be which

I think Werner could flop alright, there's a bang of Roberto Soldado off him


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Edited by Trigboy 10 at 10:03pm


Posted By: Devrozex
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 11:27am
Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Timo Werner. The latest in a long line of "but he scored loads of goals in Germany/Holland" flops
 
He's only had 3 or 4 games, and is being played wide on the left strangely
 
 
 
He's played his best stuff when either partnered with a striker or from the left wing. Doesn't really have the physicality to be the lone front man through the middle. 


Posted By: lassassinblanc
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Julian Draxler

My impression of this guy was that he was a young up and coming talent, but in reality he's been the proverbial boy wonder for his entire career

He's 27

I honestly can't remember a single thing he's done in his career

That Adrien Rabiot chap was similarly talked up for a while until it became obvious that he was happy to steal a living as a professional

I remember thinking when Wolfsburg signed Draxler as a replacement for De Bruyne that they done a brilliant piece of business and that he was a steal for 36m.

OK they went on to sell him at a profit but he didn't really have the impact I thought he would have had compared to De Bruyne


Posted By: Territorial
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 1:28pm
I remember some years back when Martin O'Neill was a studio pundit at some Finals tournament and he went off on one on Zlatan and how overrated he was.

I think he may have called him "the most overrated player I've ever seen"? LOL


Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 1:30pm
Harry Maguire and Eric Dier and most English internationals.  

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Posted By: sid waddell
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 1:31pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

I remember some years back when Martin O'Neill was a studio pundit at some Finals tournament and he went off on one on Zlatan and how overrated he was.

I think he may have called him "the most overrated player I've ever seen"? LOL
The fact remains that Zlatan never did it in the Champions League and that's a serious mark against his worth as a player


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Edited by Trigboy 10 at 10:03pm


Posted By: Territorial
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

I remember some years back when Martin O'Neill was a studio pundit at some Finals tournament and he went off on one on Zlatan and how overrated he was.

I think he may have called him "the most overrated player I've ever seen"? LOL
The fact remains that Zlatan never did it in the Champions League and that's a serious mark against his worth as a player

And Messi has never done it for Argentina....


Posted By: BrendanD88
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 1:55pm
Harry Kane would be up there too but in fairness he has looked good this season.


Posted By: Shedite
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Timo Werner. The latest in a long line of "but he scored loads of goals in Germany/Holland" flops
Is it a long line?

Strikers coming from the Dutch league can be hit or miss alright

You can get a Kezman or a Depay, but then again you can get a Suarez or a van Nistelrooy

And the weird thing is that there seems to be no quality control standard that can indicate which will be which

I think Werner could flop alright, there's a bang of Roberto Soldado off him
Maybe it's more Holland, thinking of the likes of Haller, Joelinton, etc


Posted By: Territorial
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by BrendanD88 BrendanD88 wrote:

Harry Kane would be up there too but in fairness he has looked good this season.
Kane "overrated"?

In fairness that comment is complete bollox.

LOL


Posted By: sid waddell
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

I remember some years back when Martin O'Neill was a studio pundit at some Finals tournament and he went off on one on Zlatan and how overrated he was.

I think he may have called him "the most overrated player I've ever seen"? LOL
The fact remains that Zlatan never did it in the Champions League and that's a serious mark against his worth as a player

And Messi has never done it for Argentina....
Messi has done it for Argentina though

But even if he hadn't, the comparisons would be apples and oranges

Zlatan has always been a massive under performer at the top level of club football




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Edited by Trigboy 10 at 10:03pm


Posted By: Zinedine Kilbane 110
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

[QUOTE=BrendanD88]Harry Kane would be up there too but in fairness he has looked good this season.
Kane "overrated"?

In fairness that comment is complete bollox.

LOL
[/QUOTE

I assume he is fishing.

He will end up Englands all time top goal scorer and will get close to Shearers premier league record.



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Posted By: DublinScouse1916
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 2:37pm
Coutinho. Even when he was at Liverpool he was great for scoring a worldie but that's it. No shock that he'shardly played since leaving Liverpool. Even before joining them he was nothing special. Lauren Robert was great at scoring worldies too. 


Posted By: Croftman
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 2:54pm
The Firmino one is laughable. Would agree on Pogba and Maguire, especially Maguire. He's shocking

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Posted By: Artie Ziff
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 3:23pm
Maguire is a victim of his price tag, I wouldn't bother including him in this thread as I don't think there are too many pundits or regular fans that think he is anything more than a good centre back and at the moment he isn't even that. 

Dybala and Griezmann, anytime I have seen them play they haven't done anything of note.


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Posted By: lassassinblanc
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by Artie Ziff Artie Ziff wrote:

Maguire is a victim of his price tag, I wouldn't bother including him in this thread as I don't think there are too many pundits or regular fans that think he is anything more than a good centre back and at the moment he isn't even that. 

Dybala and Griezmann, anytime I have seen them play they haven't done anything of note.

I agree with Dybala granted I don't watch much Serie A football anymore but anytime I've seen him i've wondered what the hype is about.

Griezmann was brilliant from 2016-2018 but winning the WC seems to have gone to his head and made him believe he is better then he is.


Posted By: Shedite
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by DublinScouse1916 DublinScouse1916 wrote:

Coutinho. Even when he was at Liverpool he was great for scoring a worldie but that's it. No shock that he'shardly played since leaving Liverpool. Even before joining them he was nothing special. Lauren Robert was great at scoring worldies too. 

HE was fairly ever present for Bayern last year when fit, ankle injury fecked him since Feb and he was only coming back into it during Champions League.





Posted By: BrendanD88
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 3:48pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by BrendanD88 BrendanD88 wrote:

Harry Kane would be up there too but in fairness he has looked good this season.
Kane "overrated"?

In fairness that comment is complete bollox.

LOL

Why’s he still at a small club? 

Lack of ambition or overrated?


Posted By: BrendanD88
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 3:48pm
Originally posted by Zinedine Kilbane 110 Zinedine Kilbane 110 wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

[QUOTE=BrendanD88]Harry Kane would be up there too but in fairness he has looked good this season.
Kane "overrated"?

In fairness that comment is complete bollox.

LOL
[/QUOTE

I assume he is fishing.

He will end up Englands all time top goal scorer and will get close to Shearers premier league record.


Shearer was another footballer who was extremely overrated.


Posted By: DublinScouse1916
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by DublinScouse1916 DublinScouse1916 wrote:

Coutinho. Even when he was at Liverpool he was great for scoring a worldie but that's it. No shock that he'shardly played since leaving Liverpool. Even before joining them he was nothing special. Lauren Robert was great at scoring worldies too. 

HE was fairly ever present for Bayern last year when fit, ankle injury fecked him since Feb and he was only coming back into it during Champions League.






I could post a picture of Djimi Traore with that trophy. Means nothing. 


Posted By: The Huntacha
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by DublinScouse1916 DublinScouse1916 wrote:

Coutinho. Even when he was at Liverpool he was great for scoring a worldie but that's it. No shock that he'shardly played since leaving Liverpool. Even before joining them he was nothing special. Lauren Robert was great at scoring worldies too

A poor man's Morten Gamst Pedersen.


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Posted By: Territorial
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 5:50pm
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

I remember some years back when Martin O'Neill was a studio pundit at some Finals tournament and he went off on one on Zlatan and how overrated he was.

I think he may have called him "the most overrated player I've ever seen"? LOL
The fact remains that Zlatan never did it in the Champions League and that's a serious mark against his worth as a player

And Messi has never done it for Argentina....
Messi has done it for Argentina though

But even if he hadn't, the comparisons would be apples and oranges

Zlatan has always been a massive under performer at the top level of club football


- If you look at eg Pele/Brazil, Maradona/Argentina, Ronaldo/Portugal, you'll see all 3 achieved far more in World Cups/Copa America/Euro Champs. Messi even retired from Argentina (twice?) because he was getting nowhere with them.

And I'm not comparing him with Zlatan as a player (he's superior), merely saying that if you consider ZI "overrated" from his CL record, then you could apply the same to LM on his international record. I don't do either.

As for ZI's club career generally, if he's such a "massive underperformer", why have so many top clubs in top leagues paid so much for him over two decades?

Something to do with hundreds of goals and hundreds of games?


Posted By: Conan
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 6:07pm
James McCarthy if you go by this forum alone. You'd swear he was world class....until you actually see him play.


Posted By: sid waddell
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 6:20pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

I remember some years back when Martin O'Neill was a studio pundit at some Finals tournament and he went off on one on Zlatan and how overrated he was.

I think he may have called him "the most overrated player I've ever seen"? LOL
The fact remains that Zlatan never did it in the Champions League and that's a serious mark against his worth as a player

And Messi has never done it for Argentina....
Messi has done it for Argentina though

But even if he hadn't, the comparisons would be apples and oranges

Zlatan has always been a massive under performer at the top level of club football


- If you look at eg Pele/Brazil, Maradona/Argentina, Ronaldo/Portugal, you'll see all 3 achieved far more in World Cups/Copa America/Euro Champs. Messi even retired from Argentina (twice?) because he was getting nowhere with them.

And I'm not comparing him with Zlatan as a player (he's superior), merely saying that if you consider ZI "overrated" from his CL record, then you could apply the same to LM on his international record. I don't do either.

As for ZI's club career generally, if he's such a "massive underperformer", why have so many top clubs in top leagues paid so much for him over two decades?

Something to do with hundreds of goals and hundreds of games?
Messi has got the Golden Ball award for best player at a World Cup and has consistently delivered for Argentina in the face of some appalling management and tactics

Anyway that's irrelevant to Zlatan

The point is that Zlatan has always played for teams who aspired to challenge at the business end of the Champions League and in circa 15 seasons of knockout Champions League football, he's never produced the goods in the knockout rounds

For a player that is so lauded you'd think he'd have produced the goods once in that time but it never happened

And that's the level at which you have to produce the goods to be considered one of the real greats

Zlatan was an individualist and a stylist and capable of some sublime moments, but he was not a team player at the highest level 




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Edited by Trigboy 10 at 10:03pm


Posted By: BrendanD88
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 7:42pm
Originally posted by Conan Conan wrote:

James McCarthy if you go by this forum alone. You'd swear he was world class....until you actually see him play.

You like an exaggeration Conan? 


Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 7:48pm
Jack Wilshere.


Posted By: Territorial
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 8:37pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Jack Wilshere.
Provided the ammunition for Theo Walcott to pull the trigger when England won the 2014 and 2108 World Cups.


Posted By: theheff1989
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 8:39pm
Originally posted by Conan Conan wrote:

James McCarthy if you go by this forum alone. You'd swear he was world class....until you actually see him play.

Bang average. But he did play well against Sweden in 2013 in Stockholm. 


Posted By: Territorial
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 9:13pm
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Messi has got the Golden Ball award for best player at a World Cup...
One of Blatter's better jokes, drawing guffaws all round the world for days afterwards.

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

... and has consistently delivered for Argentina in the face of some appalling management and tactics
Ah right, blame others for the fact that Messi's Argentina has never won a Copa America (4 or 5 decent teams, played every two years), never mind a World Cup.

Of course, his 70 goals in 138 internationals is very impressive. I mean, on a goals-per-game basis, it's nearly up with Zlatan's 62 in 116. Of course Sweden doubtless have vastly superior management and tactics, as well as vastly better teammates than Messi has to carry for Argentina.

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

The point is that Zlatan has always played for teams who aspired to challenge at the business end of the Champions League and in circa 15 seasons of knockout Champions League football, he's never produced the goods in the knockout rounds

For a player that is so lauded you'd think he'd have produced the goods once in that time but it never happened

And that's the level at which you have to produce the goods to be considered one of the real greats
Zlatan has played for top teams in all five of Europe's top leagues and scored goals in all of them - still is, in fact, at 39 years of age.

He's hasn't had the luxury of (virtually) picking the team at arguably the best club in the world for a period, where outstanding teammates are provided to build the team around him.

Which is not to detract fromn Messi, but Zlatan's stats make a solid case for saying that he was "Best of the Rest" behind Messi and Ronaldo for the best part of a decade.

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Zlatan was an individualist and a stylist and capable of some sublime moments, but he was not a team player at the highest level.
I think you are being distracted by Zlatan's arrogance.

Supreme ego is not incompatible with also being a fine team player - see eg Eric Cantona.


Posted By: sid waddell
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 9:21pm
Zlatan played at Ajax, Juventus, Inter Milan, Barcelona, AC Milan, PSG, Manchester United

These are all clubs for which a really top player should be able to impose himself on the knockout stages of the Champions League

The question was: What did he do in the knockout stages of the Champions League?

That's why you responded - you objected to me pointing out that he had done fook all in all his years where he had the chance to be real force at that level

So what has he ever done in the knockout stages of the Champions League? 

What are his great moments in the knockout stages of the Champions League?






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Edited by Trigboy 10 at 10:03pm


Posted By: Gary McKay
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 10:23pm
100% agree about Zlatan, always have.


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Posted By: BrendanD88
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 10:44pm
Yes think most of us are now in agreement on Zlatan being overrated after Terri said there could be a solid case for Zlatan to be “best of the rest” behind Messi and Ronaldo for the best part of decade! Laughable statement.


Posted By: Territorial
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 11:24pm
  • The only player to have scored at least a goal in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Klassieker" rel="nofollow - De Klassieker in Netherlands, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_della_Madonnina" rel="nofollow - Derby della Madonnina and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_dItalia" rel="nofollow - Derby d'Italia in Italy, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Cl%C3%A1sico" rel="nofollow - El Clásico and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derbi_barcelon%C3%AD" rel="nofollow - Derbi barceloní in Spain, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Classique" rel="nofollow - Le Classique in France, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Derby" rel="nofollow - Manchester Derby and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_F.C.%E2%80%93Manchester_United_F.C._rivalry" rel="nofollow - North-West Derby in England, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Tr%C3%A1fico" rel="nofollow - El Tráfico and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Cl%C3%A1sico" rel="nofollow - California Clásico in United States. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-MLS_debut-319" rel="nofollow - [318]
  • The only player to score in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Champions_League" rel="nofollow - UEFA Champions League with six teams: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Ajax" rel="nofollow - Ajax , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juventus_F.C." rel="nofollow - Juventus , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter_Milan" rel="nofollow - Internazionale , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Barcelona" rel="nofollow - Barcelona , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.C._Milan" rel="nofollow - Milan and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Saint-Germain_F.C." rel="nofollow - Paris Saint-Germain . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-484" rel="nofollow - [483]
  • The only player to play in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Champions_League" rel="nofollow - UEFA Champions League with seven teams: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Ajax" rel="nofollow - Ajax , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juventus_F.C." rel="nofollow - Juventus , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter_Milan" rel="nofollow - Internazionale , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Barcelona" rel="nofollow - Barcelona , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.C._Milan" rel="nofollow - Milan , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Saint-Germain_F.C." rel="nofollow - Paris Saint-Germain and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_United_F.C." rel="nofollow - Manchester United . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-485" rel="nofollow - [484]
  • The only player to score on his https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_League" rel="nofollow - Premier League , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serie_A" rel="nofollow - Serie A , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Liga" rel="nofollow - La Liga , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligue_1" rel="nofollow - Ligue 1 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Champions_League" rel="nofollow - UEFA Champions League debut. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-MU-486" rel="nofollow - [485]
  • The only player to have won 11 championships in four leagues: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eredivisie" rel="nofollow - Eredivisie , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serie_A" rel="nofollow - Serie A , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Liga" rel="nofollow - La Liga and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligue_1" rel="nofollow - Ligue 1 . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-487" rel="nofollow - [486]
  • The only player alongside with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roque_Santa_Cruz" rel="nofollow - Roque Santa Cruz to have scored in four decades: 1990s, 2000s, 2010s and 2020s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-488" rel="nofollow - [487]
  • The only player to have scored 50 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serie_A" rel="nofollow - Serie A goals for both https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter_Milan" rel="nofollow - Inter Milan and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.C._Milan" rel="nofollow - A.C. Milan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-489" rel="nofollow - [488]
  • The only foreign player to have won https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capocannoniere" rel="nofollow - Capocannoniere with two teams, in addition to two teams from the same city: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter_Milan" rel="nofollow - Inter Milan ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9309_Serie_A" rel="nofollow - 2008–09 ) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.C._Milan" rel="nofollow - A.C. Milan ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%9312_Serie_A" rel="nofollow - 2011–12 ). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-490" rel="nofollow - [489]
  • One of the two players, along with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristiano_Ronaldo" rel="nofollow - Cristiano Ronaldo , to have scored a goal in every minute of a football match during their careers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-491" rel="nofollow - [490]
  • One of three players, after https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Mutu" rel="nofollow - Adrian Mutu and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Carew" rel="nofollow - John Carew , to have scored in European competitions with seven teams. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-492" rel="nofollow - [491]
  • One of three players, with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronaldinho" rel="nofollow - Ronaldinho and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neymar" rel="nofollow - Neymar , to have scored at least one goal in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Cl%C3%A1sico" rel="nofollow - El Clásico in Spain and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Classique" rel="nofollow - Le Classique in France in the 21st century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-493" rel="nofollow - [492]
  • One of three players, with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristiano_Ronaldo" rel="nofollow - Cristiano Ronaldo and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Messi" rel="nofollow - Lionel Messi , to have reached double figures for league goals in Europe’s top five leagues in each of his last 11 seasons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-MU-486" rel="nofollow - [485]
  • One of three active players, with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristiano_Ronaldo" rel="nofollow - Cristiano Ronaldo and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Messi" rel="nofollow - Lionel Messi to have reached over 550 goals in official competitions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-494" rel="nofollow - [493]
  • Thirteenth top goalscorer of All-time


Posted By: sid waddell
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 12:06am
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

  • The only player to have scored at least a goal in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Klassieker" rel="nofollow - De Klassieker in Netherlands, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_della_Madonnina" rel="nofollow - Derby della Madonnina and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_dItalia" rel="nofollow - Derby d'Italia in Italy, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Cl%C3%A1sico" rel="nofollow - El Clásico and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derbi_barcelon%C3%AD" rel="nofollow - Derbi barceloní in Spain, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Classique" rel="nofollow - Le Classique in France, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Derby" rel="nofollow - Manchester Derby and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_F.C.%E2%80%93Manchester_United_F.C._rivalry" rel="nofollow - North-West Derby in England, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Tr%C3%A1fico" rel="nofollow - El Tráfico and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Cl%C3%A1sico" rel="nofollow - California Clásico in United States. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-MLS_debut-319" rel="nofollow - [318]
  • The only player to score in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Champions_League" rel="nofollow - UEFA Champions League with six teams: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Ajax" rel="nofollow - Ajax , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juventus_F.C." rel="nofollow - Juventus , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter_Milan" rel="nofollow - Internazionale , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Barcelona" rel="nofollow - Barcelona , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.C._Milan" rel="nofollow - Milan and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Saint-Germain_F.C." rel="nofollow - Paris Saint-Germain . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-484" rel="nofollow - [483]
  • The only player to play in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Champions_League" rel="nofollow - UEFA Champions League with seven teams: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Ajax" rel="nofollow - Ajax , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juventus_F.C." rel="nofollow - Juventus , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter_Milan" rel="nofollow - Internazionale , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Barcelona" rel="nofollow - Barcelona , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.C._Milan" rel="nofollow - Milan , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Saint-Germain_F.C." rel="nofollow - Paris Saint-Germain and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_United_F.C." rel="nofollow - Manchester United . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-485" rel="nofollow - [484]
  • The only player to score on his https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_League" rel="nofollow - Premier League , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serie_A" rel="nofollow - Serie A , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Liga" rel="nofollow - La Liga , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligue_1" rel="nofollow - Ligue 1 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Champions_League" rel="nofollow - UEFA Champions League debut. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-MU-486" rel="nofollow - [485]
  • The only player to have won 11 championships in four leagues: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eredivisie" rel="nofollow - Eredivisie , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serie_A" rel="nofollow - Serie A , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Liga" rel="nofollow - La Liga and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligue_1" rel="nofollow - Ligue 1 . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-487" rel="nofollow - [486]
  • The only player alongside with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roque_Santa_Cruz" rel="nofollow - Roque Santa Cruz to have scored in four decades: 1990s, 2000s, 2010s and 2020s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-488" rel="nofollow - [487]
  • The only player to have scored 50 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serie_A" rel="nofollow - Serie A goals for both https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter_Milan" rel="nofollow - Inter Milan and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.C._Milan" rel="nofollow - A.C. Milan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-489" rel="nofollow - [488]
  • The only foreign player to have won https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capocannoniere" rel="nofollow - Capocannoniere with two teams, in addition to two teams from the same city: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter_Milan" rel="nofollow - Inter Milan ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9309_Serie_A" rel="nofollow - 2008–09 ) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.C._Milan" rel="nofollow - A.C. Milan ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%9312_Serie_A" rel="nofollow - 2011–12 ). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-490" rel="nofollow - [489]
  • One of the two players, along with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristiano_Ronaldo" rel="nofollow - Cristiano Ronaldo , to have scored a goal in every minute of a football match during their careers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-491" rel="nofollow - [490]
  • One of three players, after https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Mutu" rel="nofollow - Adrian Mutu and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Carew" rel="nofollow - John Carew , to have scored in European competitions with seven teams. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-492" rel="nofollow - [491]
  • One of three players, with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronaldinho" rel="nofollow - Ronaldinho and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neymar" rel="nofollow - Neymar , to have scored at least one goal in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Cl%C3%A1sico" rel="nofollow - El Clásico in Spain and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Classique" rel="nofollow - Le Classique in France in the 21st century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-493" rel="nofollow - [492]
  • One of three players, with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristiano_Ronaldo" rel="nofollow - Cristiano Ronaldo and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Messi" rel="nofollow - Lionel Messi , to have reached double figures for league goals in Europe’s top five leagues in each of his last 11 seasons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-MU-486" rel="nofollow - [485]
  • One of three active players, with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristiano_Ronaldo" rel="nofollow - Cristiano Ronaldo and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Messi" rel="nofollow - Lionel Messi to have reached over 550 goals in official competitions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimovi%C4%87#cite_note-494" rel="nofollow - [493]
  • Thirteenth top goalscorer of All-time
That's all very nice but he had 15 years in which to make an impact at the top level of football in the world, the Champions League knockout stages, and never did

Zlatan's long list of clubs, which leads to most of the above statistics, is also not a great reflection on him

Generally the really great players have quite long spells at clubs, at least five years anyway, because the clubs are desperate not to lose them, they aren't club hoppers

Zlatan's longest spell at a club was four years at PSG/Qatar when he was already past his best

Inter Milan let Zlatan go in 2009 and won the Champions League the following year

Barcelona won the Champions League in 2009 and 2011 when Zlatan was not with them but did not win it in 2010 when he was there and couldn't fit in

That's fairly embarrassing

The real top players of the last 20 years have all produced the goods under pressure in the Champions League knockout stages, even if some of them have not won the competition

Ruud van Nistelrooy never produced the goods at that level either, so while he was a very good player he could never be ranked as a great

Defensively Thiago Silva would have similar question marks over him

Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Xavi, Iniesta, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Zidane, Suarez, Neymar, Gerrard, Bale, Mane, Drogba, Robben, Mueller, Pirlo, Shevchenko, all these guys produced the goods in the knockout stages when needed

Even Wayne Rooney did it at that level












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Edited by Trigboy 10 at 10:03pm


Posted By: Trap junior
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 12:06am
Originally posted by theheff1989 theheff1989 wrote:

Originally posted by Conan Conan wrote:

James McCarthy if you go by this forum alone. You'd swear he was world class....until you actually see him play.

Bang average. But he did play well against Sweden in 2013 in Stockholm. 


Had high hoped for him circa 2010/11.   Never lived up to the hype or reputation he had at that time.

He can tackle and he can pass it well AT TIMES.  I've seen him other times pass it terribly.

His faults are he hides on the pitch (for us anyway).  The amoutn of times I see him either deliberately or subconsciously choose to make himself unavailable for the ball by walking behind an opposition player when he could just as easily choose to show for the ball.  He also points his finger at the defenders to pass to some other player than himself.  He should be getting on the ball and moving the thing forwards and wanting it himself.  Quite different to Roy Keane demanding the defence to 'give me the ball' and turning on it and advancing with it.

His personality held him back imo.  He's far too shy and does't like the limelight.


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Posted By: Territorial
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 12:07am
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

The fact remains that Zlatan never did it in the Champions League and that's a serious mark against his worth as a player

Other players never to have won the CL:
Buffon (Parma FC, Juventus)
Ballack (1. FC Kaiserslautern, Bayer 04 Leverkusen, FC Bayern München, Chelsea FC)
Vieira (Arsenal FC, Juventus, FC Internazional Milano)
Nedved (AC Sparta Praha, SS Lazio, Juventus)
van Nistelrooy (PSV Eindhoven, Manchester United FC, Real Madrid CF)
Thuram (AS Monaco FC, Parma FC, Juventus, FC Barcelona)
Cannavaro (Parma FC, FC Internazionale Milano, Juventus, Real Madrid CF)
Bergkamp (AFC Ajax, FC Internazionale Milano, Arsenal FC
Matthäus (FC Bayern München, FC Internazionale Milano
Batistuta (ACF Fiorentina, AS Roma, FC Internazionale Milano)
Weah (AS Monaco FC, Paris Saint-Germain, AC Milan)
Baggio (AC Milan, FC Internazionale Milano)

And imo the greatest No.9 in the last 40 years:
Ronaldo (FC Internazionale Milano, Real Madrid CF)

Anyhow, vastly overrated, the lot of them.




Posted By: Trap junior
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 12:11am
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

The fact remains that Zlatan never did it in the Champions League and that's a serious mark against his worth as a player

Other players never to have won the CL:
Buffon (Parma FC, Juventus)
Ballack (1. FC Kaiserslautern, Bayer 04 Leverkusen, FC Bayern München, Chelsea FC)
Vieira (Arsenal FC, Juventus, FC Internazional Milano)
Nedved (AC Sparta Praha, SS Lazio, Juventus)
van Nistelrooy (PSV Eindhoven, Manchester United FC, Real Madrid CF)
Thuram (AS Monaco FC, Parma FC, Juventus, FC Barcelona)
Cannavaro (Parma FC, FC Internazionale Milano, Juventus, Real Madrid CF)
Bergkamp (AFC Ajax, FC Internazionale Milano, Arsenal FC
Matthäus (FC Bayern München, FC Internazionale Milano
Batistuta (ACF Fiorentina, AS Roma, FC Internazionale Milano)
Weah (AS Monaco FC, Paris Saint-Germain, AC Milan)
Baggio (AC Milan, FC Internazionale Milano)

And imo the greatest No.9 in the last 40 years:
Ronaldo (FC Internazionale Milano, Real Madrid CF)

Anyhow, vastly overrated, the lot of them.




That wasn't his argument.  His argument what big moments has Zlatan ever come up with in the knockout stages. Did he ever turn a game?


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Posted By: sid waddell
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 12:30am
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

The fact remains that Zlatan never did it in the Champions League and that's a serious mark against his worth as a player

Other players never to have won the CL:
Buffon (Parma FC, Juventus)
Ballack (1. FC Kaiserslautern, Bayer 04 Leverkusen, FC Bayern München, Chelsea FC)
Vieira (Arsenal FC, Juventus, FC Internazional Milano)
Nedved (AC Sparta Praha, SS Lazio, Juventus)
van Nistelrooy (PSV Eindhoven, Manchester United FC, Real Madrid CF)
Thuram (AS Monaco FC, Parma FC, Juventus, FC Barcelona)
Cannavaro (Parma FC, FC Internazionale Milano, Juventus, Real Madrid CF)
Bergkamp (AFC Ajax, FC Internazionale Milano, Arsenal FC
Matthäus (FC Bayern München, FC Internazionale Milano
Batistuta (ACF Fiorentina, AS Roma, FC Internazionale Milano)
Weah (AS Monaco FC, Paris Saint-Germain, AC Milan)
Baggio (AC Milan, FC Internazionale Milano)

And imo the greatest No.9 in the last 40 years:
Ronaldo (FC Internazionale Milano, Real Madrid CF)

Anyhow, vastly overrated, the lot of them.


But you don't have to have even won the Champions League

You just have to properly produce the goods on the highest level

Let's go through those players

Buffon won the World Cup
Ballack dragged Bayer Leverkusen to a Champions League final almost by himself and nearly dragged Germany to win the World Cup in 2002 and 2006, and Euro 2008
Vieira won the World Cup and Euros and reached another World Cup final
Nedved was outstanding in 2003 when Juventus reached the Champions League final
Van Nistelrooy as I said has a black mark against his name because like Zlatan he never really did it when it counted in either the Champions League or a major international tournament
Thuram won the World Cup and a Euros
Cannavaro was the best player at the 2006 World Cup, was the winning captain and won the Golden Ball
Bergkamp scored one of the greatest goals in history in the dying minutes of a World Cup quarter-final, he did it consistently when it matted for Holland
Matthaus is a World Cup winning captain and in my view was the best player at the 1990 World Cup
Baggio was outstanding at the 1994 World Cup, in my view the best player at that tournament, he won the UEFA Cup with Juventus when that tournament still mattered and turned then around as a club when they were at a low point
Batistuta and Weah were fine players but they didn't really do it when it mattered 
Ronaldo owned the 2002 World Cup and was obviously one of the great players

Zlatan's performances in the real cut throat football that matters do not compare to all but three of the above - van Nisterooy, Batistuta and Weah - and that's around where he is in the pantheon

Zlatan has won a load of Serie A titles but Serie A was not the yardstick of old when he played in it, it had declined considerably, it would have been harder not to win it when he played with Juventus and Inter

He has won a load of Farmer's league titles with Qatar but they are not taken seriously 

He had his big chance at Barcelona but couldn't take it, by the latter part of 2009/10 he was well out of favour and ended up being fairly peripheral to their league title

His international record is comparable to Robbie Keane's or Wayne Rooney's but we don't consider Robbie Keane as one of the greats on an international scale, we don't even consider Rooney to be one of the greats on an international scale








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Edited by Trigboy 10 at 10:03pm


Posted By: Gary McKay
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 12:36am
Google a player called Maxwell.

Best mate with Zlatan, followed him everywhere.

He was once the most decorated player in football history in terms of trophies won yet most have never heard of him.

Is he up there with Messi etc based on “stats” ?


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"Smalling and Jones.... have the potential to be the PL’s best ever pairing in my opinion." - SlurAlex


Posted By: Trap junior
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 12:38am
I always thought Giggs was overrated.


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Posted By: sid waddell
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 12:39am
Originally posted by Gary McKay Gary McKay wrote:

Google a player called Maxwell.

Best mate with Zlatan, followed him everywhere.

He was once the most decorated player in football history in terms of trophies won yet most have never heard of him.

Is he up there with Messi etc based on “stats” ?
Football's greatest bromance

Makes James McCarthy and James McArthur look like the couple that hated each other in Father Ted



-------------
Edited by Trigboy 10 at 10:03pm


Posted By: Territorial
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 12:41am
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:


Buffon won the World Cup
Ballack dragged Bayer Leverkusen to a Champions League final almost by himself and nearly dragged Germany to win the World Cup in 2002 and 2006, and Euro 2008
Vieira won the World Cup and Euros and reached another World Cup final
Nedved was outstanding in 2003 when Juventus reached the Champions League final
Van Nistelrooy as I said has a black mark against his name because like Zlatan he never really did it when it counted in either the Champions League or a major international tournament
Thuram won the World Cup and a Euros
Cannavaro was the best player at the 2006 World Cup, was the winning captain and won the Golden Ball
Bergkamp scored one of the greatest goals in history in the dying minutes of a World Cup quarter-final, he did it consistently when it matted for Holland
Matthaus is a World Cup winning captain and in my view was the best player at the 1990 World Cup
Baggio was outstanding at the 1994 World Cup, in my view the best player at that tournament, he won the UEFA Cup with Juventus when that tournament still mattered and turned then around as a club when they were at a low point
Batistuta and Weah were fine players but they didn't really do it when it mattered 
Ronaldo owned the 2002 World Cup and was obviously one of the great players

Zlatan's achievements in the real cut throat football that matters do not compare to all but three of the above - van Nisterooy, Batistuta and Weah - and that's around where he is in the pantheon

Zlatan has won a load of Serie A titles but Serie A was not the yardstick of old when he played in it, it had declined considerably, it would have been harder not to win it when he played with Juventus and Inter

He has won a load of Farmer's league titles with Qatar but they are not taken seriously 

He had his big chance at Barcelona but couldn't take it

His international record is comparable to Robbie Keane's or Wayne Rooney's but we don't consider Robbie Keane as one the greats on an international scale, we don't even consider Rooney to be one of the greats on an international scale

You talk about World Cup exploits etc, but those guys played for Italy, France, Germany, Netherlands etc.

Zlatan played for a second rate country, Sweden, so was bound to have it harder.

A bit like Messi in fact. I mean, how is he meant to win anything with a mediocre bunch of Argentinean duds?

Hugely overrated.



Posted By: sid waddell
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 12:42am
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

I always thought Giggs was overrated.
I'm not sure Giggs was ever really rated as a great on a European level

On a strictly domestic level he was a great

He had a total nightmare of a game in the 1999 Champions League final






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Edited by Trigboy 10 at 10:03pm


Posted By: sid waddell
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 12:46am
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:


Buffon won the World Cup
Ballack dragged Bayer Leverkusen to a Champions League final almost by himself and nearly dragged Germany to win the World Cup in 2002 and 2006, and Euro 2008
Vieira won the World Cup and Euros and reached another World Cup final
Nedved was outstanding in 2003 when Juventus reached the Champions League final
Van Nistelrooy as I said has a black mark against his name because like Zlatan he never really did it when it counted in either the Champions League or a major international tournament
Thuram won the World Cup and a Euros
Cannavaro was the best player at the 2006 World Cup, was the winning captain and won the Golden Ball
Bergkamp scored one of the greatest goals in history in the dying minutes of a World Cup quarter-final, he did it consistently when it matted for Holland
Matthaus is a World Cup winning captain and in my view was the best player at the 1990 World Cup
Baggio was outstanding at the 1994 World Cup, in my view the best player at that tournament, he won the UEFA Cup with Juventus when that tournament still mattered and turned then around as a club when they were at a low point
Batistuta and Weah were fine players but they didn't really do it when it mattered 
Ronaldo owned the 2002 World Cup and was obviously one of the great players

Zlatan's achievements in the real cut throat football that matters do not compare to all but three of the above - van Nisterooy, Batistuta and Weah - and that's around where he is in the pantheon

Zlatan has won a load of Serie A titles but Serie A was not the yardstick of old when he played in it, it had declined considerably, it would have been harder not to win it when he played with Juventus and Inter

He has won a load of Farmer's league titles with Qatar but they are not taken seriously 

He had his big chance at Barcelona but couldn't take it

His international record is comparable to Robbie Keane's or Wayne Rooney's but we don't consider Robbie Keane as one the greats on an international scale, we don't even consider Rooney to be one of the greats on an international scale

You talk about World Cup exploits etc, but those guys played for Italy, France, Germany, Netherlands etc.

Zlatan played for a second rate country, Sweden, so was bound to have it harder.

A bit like Messi in fact. I mean, how is he meant to win anything with a mediocre bunch of Argentinean duds?

Hugely overrated.

But these guys have done it at the real top level

Zlatan didn't

Your whole argument for him is that if he had done more than he did he'd be ranked up there with these guys

If I had done what they did so would I

It's mad the way people make arguments that players they like were on a level above where they actually were

Your Zlatan obsession is getting to be as bad as forum poster Roberto Baggio's obsession with proving non-great David Silver is actually one of the true greats of the game  


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Edited by Trigboy 10 at 10:03pm


Posted By: Territorial
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 12:57am
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Your Zlatan obsession is getting to be as bad as forum poster Roberto Baggio's obsession with proving non-great David Silver is actually one of the true greats of the game  

I'm not "obsessed" with Zlatan. Confused

But after LM and CR (way out on their own in the modern era), at his peak Zlatan was widely considered to be one of the world's very best players of his generation.

And given his record, I personally think that fair enough.

 


Posted By: sid waddell
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 1:11am
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Your Zlatan obsession is getting to be as bad as forum poster Roberto Baggio's obsession with proving non-great David Silver is actually one of the true greats of the game  

I'm not "obsessed" with Zlatan. Confused

But after LM and CR (way out on their own in the modern era), at his peak Zlatan was widely considered to be one of the world's very best players of his generation.

And given his record, I personally think that fair enough.

 
Zlatan was a very talented player

One of the true greats he is not because he didn't produce the goods when it mattered, in fact he had a long record of not producing

Simple as that


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Edited by Trigboy 10 at 10:03pm


Posted By: BrendanD88
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 2:20pm
Olivier Giroud somehow about to win his 100th International cap tomorrow night.


Posted By: lassassinblanc
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by BrendanD88 BrendanD88 wrote:

Olivier Giroud somehow about to win his 100th International cap tomorrow night.

I'd actually counter to say he's under rated for the job he does. Also has scored 40 goals in 99 games that's a decent return.


Posted By: Artie Ziff
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by Gary McKay Gary McKay wrote:

Google a player called Maxwell.

Best mate with Zlatan, followed him everywhere.

He was once the most decorated player in football history in terms of trophies won yet most have never heard of him.

Is he up there with Messi etc based on “stats” ?

I read the Zlatan book and Maxwell comes up in a lot. I still don't know he is


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It would damage this forums' reputation


Posted By: lassassinblanc
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

The fact remains that Zlatan never did it in the Champions League and that's a serious mark against his worth as a player

Other players never to have won the CL:
Buffon (Parma FC, Juventus)
Ballack (1. FC Kaiserslautern, Bayer 04 Leverkusen, FC Bayern München, Chelsea FC)
Vieira (Arsenal FC, Juventus, FC Internazional Milano)
Nedved (AC Sparta Praha, SS Lazio, Juventus)
van Nistelrooy (PSV Eindhoven, Manchester United FC, Real Madrid CF)
Thuram (AS Monaco FC, Parma FC, Juventus, FC Barcelona)
Cannavaro (Parma FC, FC Internazionale Milano, Juventus, Real Madrid CF)
Bergkamp (AFC Ajax, FC Internazionale Milano, Arsenal FC
Matthäus (FC Bayern München, FC Internazionale Milano
Batistuta (ACF Fiorentina, AS Roma, FC Internazionale Milano)
Weah (AS Monaco FC, Paris Saint-Germain, AC Milan)
Baggio (AC Milan, FC Internazionale Milano)

And imo the greatest No.9 in the last 40 years:
Ronaldo (FC Internazionale Milano, Real Madrid CF)

Anyhow, vastly overrated, the lot of them.



Reminds me this beauty

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sld0x6AktAE" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sld0x6AktAE


Posted By: Englishborn
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 5:35pm
Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Originally posted by BigStrongMan BigStrongMan wrote:

Harry Maguire has to run him close
 
I don't know many that really rate him. But I agree. In the last world cup in an English defence containing Walker, Stones and Ashley Young he was the most awkward looking in possession. He suddenly somehow became an £80m player
 
 

He was one of our best defenders in possession.  He made numerous runs forward 


Posted By: Englishborn
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Harry Maguire and Eric Dier and most English internationals.  

Jealous? We have some of the most promising youngsters in the world plus world class players like kane sterling sancho trent 


Posted By: NewtNewbie
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 5:49pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

The fact remains that Zlatan never did it in the Champions League and that's a serious mark against his worth as a player

Other players never to have won the CL:
Buffon (Parma FC, Juventus)
Ballack (1. FC Kaiserslautern, Bayer 04 Leverkusen, FC Bayern München, Chelsea FC)
Vieira (Arsenal FC, Juventus, FC Internazional Milano)
Nedved (AC Sparta Praha, SS Lazio, Juventus)
van Nistelrooy (PSV Eindhoven, Manchester United FC, Real Madrid CF)
Thuram (AS Monaco FC, Parma FC, Juventus, FC Barcelona)
Cannavaro (Parma FC, FC Internazionale Milano, Juventus, Real Madrid CF)
Bergkamp (AFC Ajax, FC Internazionale Milano, Arsenal FC
Matthäus (FC Bayern München, FC Internazionale Milano
Batistuta (ACF Fiorentina, AS Roma, FC Internazionale Milano)
Weah (AS Monaco FC, Paris Saint-Germain, AC Milan)
Baggio (AC Milan, FC Internazionale Milano)

And imo the greatest No.9 in the last 40 years:
Ronaldo (FC Internazionale Milano, Real Madrid CF)

Anyhow, vastly overrated, the lot of them.

Scott Carson and Djimi Traoré have though, and that obviously makes them better than that bunch of no-marks.


Posted By: FrankosHereNow
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by Englishborn Englishborn wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Harry Maguire and Eric Dier and most English internationals.  

Jealous? We have some of the most promising youngsters in the world plus world class players like kane sterling sancho trent 
Everyone is jealous of England.

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YBIG Quiz Champion 2016, 2017 & 2018.

As You Were
Three in a row


Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by Englishborn Englishborn wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Harry Maguire and Eric Dier and most English internationals.  

Jealous? We have some of the most promising youngsters in the world plus world class players like kane sterling sancho trent 
And Tommy TwoNames in the stands. 


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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.


Posted By: BrendanD88
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by lassassinblanc lassassinblanc wrote:

Originally posted by BrendanD88 BrendanD88 wrote:

Olivier Giroud somehow about to win his 100th International cap tomorrow night.

I'd actually counter to say he's under rated for the job he does. Also has scored 40 goals in 99 games that's a decent return.

Na he has never been a starter for a top club and now he’s going to win his 100th cap for a French side full of great forwards! Didn’t do much during their World Cup win either.

Klose would also be overrated, great international player but an average footballer at club level.


Posted By: FrankosHereNow
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 7:17pm
Fkcin hell Brendy. You have ridiculously high standards. I would say Giroud is underrated. He’s brilliant at playing his role.

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YBIG Quiz Champion 2016, 2017 & 2018.

As You Were
Three in a row


Posted By: BrendanD88
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 7:24pm
Originally posted by FrankosHereNow FrankosHereNow wrote:

Fkcin hell Brendy. You have ridiculously high standards. I would say Giroud is underrated. He’s brilliant at playing his role.

He hasn’t really been a first team regular for his club since he played for Montpellier in 2012, mad he’s about to amass 100 caps for such a great International side.


Posted By: lassassinblanc
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by BrendanD88 BrendanD88 wrote:

Originally posted by FrankosHereNow FrankosHereNow wrote:

Fkcin hell Brendy. You have ridiculously high standards. I would say Giroud is underrated. He’s brilliant at playing his role.

He hasn’t really been a first team regular for his club since he played for Montpellier in 2012, mad he’s about to amass 100 caps for such a great International side.

In his 5 seasons at arsenal he played  34,36, 27,38 and 29 games. 





Posted By: lassassinblanc
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 7:43pm
In terms of Klose

231 goals in 531 club appearances is a pretty decent return 


Posted By: BrendanD88
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 9:23pm
Originally posted by lassassinblanc lassassinblanc wrote:

In terms of Klose

231 goals in 531 club appearances is a pretty decent return 

Was good at Werder Bremen never looked good when he signed for Bayern Munich! Not good enough.


Posted By: BrendanD88
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 9:25pm
Originally posted by lassassinblanc lassassinblanc wrote:

Originally posted by BrendanD88 BrendanD88 wrote:

Originally posted by FrankosHereNow FrankosHereNow wrote:

Fkcin hell Brendy. You have ridiculously high standards. I would say Giroud is underrated. He’s brilliant at playing his role.

He hasn’t really been a first team regular for his club since he played for Montpellier in 2012, mad he’s about to amass 100 caps for such a great International side.

In his 5 seasons at arsenal he played  34,36, 27,38 and 29 games. 




Doesn’t mean a whole lot, he was never trusted to be the main striker as he wasn’t good enough plus Arsenal aren’t exactly European elite.


Posted By: Roberto Baggio
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 10:06pm
Who rates Giroud though? You don't often hear commentators, pundits or fans bigging him up as a top player. He does a job when called upon and is a decent squad member
 
Whereas, in many discussions about Man United in recent years all you hear is of how Pogba is the main man, world class, or how great it was that they were able to attract him etc.
Bar a handful of great passes a season he does very little else.
There's some sort of belief that he's among the best midfielders in the game at the minute


Posted By: RKeane
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 10:07pm
Some awful shouts in here, whatever about his attitude, Neymar is one the most talented players in the history of the game. 

Someone also mentioning Werner, why? because he has had a slow start? far from 'the most overrated player in world football' he will come good.

In my opinion I would give it to Pogba or Giggs, people always talk about Pogba having a world cup medal but he was surrounded by the best squad there and apart from his goal in the final there was not much else, a player who has his 'moments' but nowhere near some of the best midfielders in the world, most games pass him by, he has had about 4 stand out games for United in 5/6 seasons, 105 million.

Giggs was massively overrated, lived off the Arsenal goal for years (terrible defending), a good career but nowhere near as good as what people make him out to be. Even Keane who played alongside him for years feels he was overrated. 






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YESSSS! IT'S THERE


Posted By: Roberto Baggio
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by RKeane RKeane wrote:

Some awful shouts in here, whatever about his attitude, Neymar is one the most talented players in the history of the game. 

Someone also mentioning Werner, why? because he has had a slow start? far from 'the most overrated player in world football' he will come good.

In my opinion I would give it to Pogba or Giggs, people always talk about Pogba having a world cup medal but he was surrounded by the best squad there and apart from his goal in the final there was not much else, a player who has his 'moments' but nowhere near some of the best midfielders in the world, most games pass him by, he has had about 4 stand out games for United in 5/6 seasons, 105 million.

Giggs was massively overrated, lived off the Arsenal goal for years (terrible defending), a good career but nowhere near as good as what people make him out to be. Even Keane who played alongside him for years feels he was overrated. 
 
Does he?
Was he not in disbelief that he wasn't named on a team that Keane and Carragher were picking last season comparing United 99 with Liverpool from last season


Posted By: BigStrongMan
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 10:16pm
Originally posted by RKeane RKeane wrote:

Some awful shouts in here, whatever about his attitude, Neymar is one the most talented players in the history of the game. 

Someone also mentioning Werner, why? because he has had a slow start? far from 'the most overrated player in world football' he will come good.

In my opinion I would give it to Pogba or Giggs, people always talk about Pogba having a world cup medal but he was surrounded by the best squad there and apart from his goal in the final there was not much else, a player who has his 'moments' but nowhere near some of the best midfielders in the world, most games pass him by, he has had about 4 stand out games for United in 5/6 seasons, 105 million.

Giggs was massively overrated, lived off the Arsenal goal for years (terrible defending), a good career but nowhere near as good as what people make him out to be. Even Keane who played alongside him for years feels he was overrated. 




Well you can add Giggs to the awful shouts list. Kin ell

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PM me for all forum moderation queries.


Posted By: RKeane
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 10:26pm
Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Originally posted by RKeane RKeane wrote:

Some awful shouts in here, whatever about his attitude, Neymar is one the most talented players in the history of the game. 

Someone also mentioning Werner, why? because he has had a slow start? far from 'the most overrated player in world football' he will come good.

In my opinion I would give it to Pogba or Giggs, people always talk about Pogba having a world cup medal but he was surrounded by the best squad there and apart from his goal in the final there was not much else, a player who has his 'moments' but nowhere near some of the best midfielders in the world, most games pass him by, he has had about 4 stand out games for United in 5/6 seasons, 105 million.

Giggs was massively overrated, lived off the Arsenal goal for years (terrible defending), a good career but nowhere near as good as what people make him out to be. Even Keane who played alongside him for years feels he was overrated. 
 
Does he?
Was he not in disbelief that he wasn't named on a team that Keane and Carragher were picking last season comparing United 99 with Liverpool from last season

In Keane & Vieira Best of Enemies, in relation to Giggs he said something like 'A great career does not make you a great player' 


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YESSSS! IT'S THERE


Posted By: doherty
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 10:42pm
I dont think you can put Giggs in the overrated category. Seems a stretch there.


Posted By: BabbsBalls
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 10:43pm
Giggs. Get up the yard LOL

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l hear you are a racist now, father ?


Posted By: RKeane
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 11:11pm
He never scored more than 8 goals in one premier league season while playing as a winger for the best team in England for 20+ years, done f**k all for Wales, I am not saying he is not a good footballer, I just find him to be one of the most overrated players in football

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YESSSS! IT'S THERE


Posted By: doherty
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 11:17pm
I dont think he ever cared about playing for Wales really that much. He was electric when he burst onto the scene in the early 90s. Bit more than a good footballer. Jordan Henderson is a good footballer. Bit of a difference.


Posted By: BrendanD88
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 11:33pm
Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Who rates Giroud though? You don't often hear commentators, pundits or fans bigging him up as a top player. He does a job when called upon and is a decent squad member
 
Whereas, in many discussions about Man United in recent years all you hear is of how Pogba is the main man, world class, or how great it was that they were able to attract him etc.
Bar a handful of great passes a season he does very little else.
There's some sort of belief that he's among the best midfielders in the game at the minute

My whole point about mentioning Giroud is the fact he is about to win his 100th cap tomorrow, so I would say Deschamps rates him highly.

Pogba had a really bad injury that kept him out for ages, there is no doubting his quality, it’s his desire which can certainly be questioned.


Posted By: Jock
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2020 at 3:22pm
Freddie Ljungberg was a player involved in a great team, scored a right few goals and a lot of important ones. But I generally cant remember him doing much else in games. On the Open Goal show, a few of the ex Celtic youngsters said they couldnt believe how bad he was when he joined for his brief spell, albeit towards the end of his career. 


Posted By: savo01
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2020 at 3:28pm
Jack Byrne

-------------
Jackie Charlton, Eoin Hand
Johnny Giles. Ireland
Mick McCarthy, Stephen Staunton
Cascarino
Tony Galvin, Niall Quinn
Packie doesn't let em in
North of Ireland
South of Ireland
Only one can go


Posted By: reddladd
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2020 at 4:42pm
Pogba. 

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I could agree with you but then we'd both be wrong.


Posted By: lassassinblanc
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2020 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by BrendanD88 BrendanD88 wrote:

Originally posted by lassassinblanc lassassinblanc wrote:

Originally posted by BrendanD88 BrendanD88 wrote:

Originally posted by FrankosHereNow FrankosHereNow wrote:

Fkcin hell Brendy. You have ridiculously high standards. I would say Giroud is underrated. He’s brilliant at playing his role.

He hasn’t really been a first team regular for his club since he played for Montpellier in 2012, mad he’s about to amass 100 caps for such a great International side.

In his 5 seasons at arsenal he played  34,36, 27,38 and 29 games. 




Doesn’t mean a whole lot, he was never trusted to be the main striker as he wasn’t good enough plus Arsenal aren’t exactly European elite.

I think there is a mentality and view that has crept into football that if a striker isn't scoring goals he's not considered decent or rated, I'm not sure if it is just due to Ronaldo and Messi being so far ahead of everyone else.

Look at Shane Long for example never really scores many goals but he is still a PL league player due to the role he plays within the team, he drags defenders out of position which leaves space for others.

You say Klose wasn't a success at Bayern he was their top goal scorer in all competitions in two of the 4 seasons he was there. His Striking partner for one of them was league top scorer (Luca Toni) who credited the work Klose put in as one the reasons.

It's similar to Giroud he may not score 20-30 goals a season but he brings players into play who do. I'd actually be confident that France would not have won the World Cup in 2018 if he wasn't in that team, because he put in the work the likes of Griezmann weren't capable of.  



Posted By: Het-field
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2020 at 4:52pm
Originally posted by doherty doherty wrote:

I dont think you can put Giggs in the overrated category. Seems a stretch there.

Giggs I think was a great example of a player who was well matched to his perceived rating. He was hugely important to Man United's success over a 20 year period, and I would note that he suffered an injury in 1997/1998 and a loss of form in 1994/1995 which were both important factors in United losing titles that year.

I think he was outshone for various reasons by the likes of Cantona, Keane, Beckham, Ronaldo, Rooney, and was seen as part of United's greatness as opposed the "chosen one" during that period. But he was keys, and his influence on the pitch has probably been missed.



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