1981
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Forum Name: Whatever!
Forum Description: Anything else going on
URL: https://forum.ybig.ie/forum_posts.asp?TID=56848
Printed Date: 28 Apr 2024 at 9:23pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.00 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 1981
Posted By: Cabra Hoop
Subject: 1981
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2019 at 8:55am
38 years since they never came home and still no justice. ------------- " BFC always gives me a laugh........ " |
Replies:
Posted By: Lenny82
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2019 at 3:59pm
What, in your opinion, would be justice?
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Cabra Hoop wrote:Posted By: Cabra Hoop
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2019 at 4:13pm
A public apology to the bereaved families for the suppressing of vital evidence which throws serious doubt on the findings in the Keane tribunal.
------------- " BFC always gives me a laugh........ " |
Posted By: Shedite
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2019 at 5:54pm
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Posted By: Cabra Hoop
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2019 at 9:20pm
------------- " BFC always gives me a laugh........ " |
Posted By: GB 1HughJarse
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2019 at 10:05pm
Stardust disaster was absolutely shocking, the survivors and families of the bereaved have always felt the investigation/tribunal wasn’t thorough enough, a lot of unanswered questions. Government said to reopen the case years later “wasn’t in the public interest”. 48 young men and women died. Fire exits padlocked, breaches of fire safety regulations. Owners never apologised, never faced any charges......they got paid compensation due to the original finding that it was caused by arson. |
Posted By: The Huntacha
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 10:52am
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Shocking to think that this cover up has lasted as long as it has. ------------- Jimmy Bullard - "Favorite band? Elastic." |
Posted By: irishmufc
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 11:03am
I actually made that assumption myself. Thought it was something to do with the hunger strike. ------------- Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been. |
Posted By: Shedite
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 1:02pm
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Posted By: BohsinMunich
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 10:36am
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Item on now on Miriam O'Callaghan (rte1 radio) |
Posted By: Lenny82
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 10:30pm
A public apology from whom? Some dopey f**ker padlocked the fire escapes. Could never have known what would follow. Do we really want to turn somebody in to a public figure of hate for something they are probably beating themselves up over every day for the last 38 years? Not popular, but this, and the Hillsborough campaign, do my head in.
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Posted By: Gaz
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 10:39pm
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would you have the same opinion if one of your friends/relatives died in either incident Lenny? ------------- I dont email the count anymore, its been 9 months : ( He even sent me a YBIG scarf for my Birthday |
Posted By: Lenny82
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 10:55pm
Probably not but I don't get what either campaign is actually seeking to achieve. If somebody can articulate in one sentence what 'justice for the Stardust' or 'Justice for Hillsborough' actually looks like, it would go some way to ending the prolonged suffering of the families. Look at Grenfell. Will there be justice when the civil servant, who chose the flammable cladding, gets jailed for 40 years? Some things are simply a tragedy and we need to commemorate those who lost their lives, not look for a neck to hang!
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Posted By: Sham157
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 11:26pm
As for Hillsborough, the ongoing criminal cases should also give you a small inkling of what that particular campaign hopes to achieve. Unreal that you you seem to advocate nobody being responsible for mass loss of life in at least two cases where a person or persons are clearly responsible.
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Posted By: Sham157
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 11:28pm
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Posted By: Lenny82
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 11:49pm
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Sham, I know it is not a popular angle, but it is likely that whomever padlocked the fire escape, had no idea that it was indeed a 'fire' escape. Do you really think that (hypothetically) a 20 year old lounge boy should be scape goated for such a tragedy? Hillsborough, how do you get justice for that? Forget the horrible press coverage and the appalling attempts at covering up. How do you make somebody accountable? Is it the guy who opened the gates? The guy who told him to open the gates? The guy who gave the authority to the guy who told the guy to open the gates?
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Posted By: Lenny82
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 11:54pm
| I do realise how cold and horrible this sounds by the way, and I know the majority won't agree with me. I in no way mean to cause offence to those affected by these tragedies and I know that families are still suffering every day since. God bless them. |
Posted By: Sham157
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 12:02am
As for Hillsborough, the decision makers are the ones respnsible, and the ones now on trial. Again, as has been well established, there were a number of near misses with Hollsborough in previous years that werent acted on. Neither of these events were natural disasters where human culpability is absent, these were both tragedies caused or exacerbated by human action by people charged with the safety and duty of care to others. When that duty fails or is neglected then someone must be held accountable to at least try prevent it from happening again and achieve justice. Otherwise, like I said previous, it becomes a free for all. In very very simple terms, if you rob a shop and there is absolutely no risk of answering for your crime, sure fuk it, ill rob one too, and ill send my young son to to do it because sure nobody is ever held accountable.
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Posted By: Sham157
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 12:06am
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Posted By: Lenny82
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 12:20am
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I get your point but your scenario is a complete disregard for the law whereas the other is ignorance. What does justice for Stardust and Hillsborough equate to?
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Posted By: Sham157
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 12:32am
Justice equates to those responsible being convicted in the criminal semse but also, more importantly in the case of Stardust, equates to what happened that night, what caused what happened to happen being made known, which in the Stardust case has not happened. In other words, answers and closure.
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Posted By: Lenny82
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 12:52am
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So, find the barman/lounge-boy who padlocked the side door to stop lads letting their mates in for free. Find the steward who decided 'f**k it, open the gates and let them all in'. Drag them through the courts and give them a custodial sentence. Do we need to look at the people who opened those side doors to let their pals in for the weeks/months before that? Do we need to look at the fans who showed up at the stadium without a ticket and forced their way in?
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Posted By: SuperDave84
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 1:28am
Lessons being learned, similar incidents not happening again, and those responsible not escaping because of institutional cover ups. There's little doubt that it does few favours to see people on trial for Hillsborough now but, frankly, for too long there was a total lack of appreciation of three things: 1) the rights of the families of those who died (in both tragedies) to find out what happened without feeling like they, too, were banging up against a brick wall; 2) the fact that if there were people or, more importantly, systems responsible for what happened (in both tragedies) that they were simply not considered and, most importantly, that there was nothing being done to prevent a repeat; and 3) public perception and the fact that holders of public office must both do and be seen to be doing the best they can in the circumstances. Here, I'm not talking about those on the ground at the time, I'm talking about those that came afterwards, with the inquests and inquiries in both cases. Look at Andy Burnham on Hillsborough. Look the video of him at Anfield about ten years ago, then look at everything that he has done since then. That's what the start of justice looks like. Justice is not just about people being held accountable. It's about a justice system you can believe in, a justice system that is responsive to people, a justice system that is not afraid to admit when things go wrong and a justice system that doesn't allow people to escape because of active institutional cover ups. ------------- 
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Posted By: Sham157
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 3:53am
if you employ that logic to the cases you mentioned, then it would apply to them all? Or are you being selective because of the time frame invilved? You might say that these happened ages ago whereas the Sala plane crash was only very recent, but would youn stand in front of the families and honestly look them in tne eye and say what happened and their fight for the answers they crave and deserve arent important anymore because it happened back then? On the other hand, perhaps its really a case of it didnt affect you so the ‘I’m alright Jack’ mindset comes into play.
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Posted By: The Huntacha
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 4:33am
Cannot be simplified any more than that. This should provide more information for you Lenny, in case you're looking for it; As we have been usefully reminded during the week, the tribunal of inquiry into the Stardust fire found that the owner Eamon Butterly had acted with "reckless disregard" for the safety of those on the premises. The locked fire exits, the breaching of fire regulations, the failure to comply with public safety bylaws were all clearly catalogued by that tribunal. The State was also held to be negligent. Insufficient action had been taken when it was discovered that regulations were being flouted, particularly those relating to fire exits. There were serious errors and omissions in the conversion of the building, together with breaches of requirements of the chief fire officer, relevant bylaws and the fire protection standards of the Department of the Environment. All of this contributed to 48 deaths, according to the inquiry. And yet, no one was held to account. The finding of the tribunal that arson was the probable cause of the fire, despite any clear evidence to support this, diverted the emphasis away from the combined negligence of the State and the Stardust owners. It shifted the primary responsibility for the tragedy on to person or persons unknown, thus diffusing the relatives' and survivors' demands for justice. The courts were never asked to rule on civil liability for the disaster. Hundreds of victims tried to take legal action, but the obstacles were enormous. The prohibition on class actions, long delays within the system, and mounting legal costs all conspired to make them choose instead the route of the compensation tribunal set up in 1985. While established in good faith to assist the victims, this particular tribunal served to protect both the State and the Stardust owners from any direct court finding to determine the extent of their liability for the disaster. In choosing compensation, the victims had to agree not to pursue any further legal action in respect of their injuries or loss. They were left with little choice, and many felt that they were being paid off to shut them up and quietly close the chapter on the Stardust. http://https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/justice-for-stardust-families-1.1016327" rel="nofollow - https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/justice-for-stardust-families-1.1016327 Not to mention that Butterly received over half a million pounds due to the "probable arson" determination. The greatest loss of life in a single incident in the history of the State requires a level of justice and accountability that has not occurred even after nearly 40 years.
------------- Jimmy Bullard - "Favorite band? Elastic." |
Posted By: Bob Hoskins
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 10:34am
I'm 45 years old and lost my mother in Stardust, but your right Lenny time moves on and I couldn't care less about it, and that Butterly fellah seems great it gives me a warm glow thinking of the big payout he got as well  Ok so I didn't lose my mother but there would be plenty in that situation- the audacity of the those fmailies to want to find out the truth, time wasters could be posting updates on instagram or something useful like that ------------- Romario 2016: And the ticket mafia gets caught! Well, four years ago I had already told the government. |
Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 11:14am
 f**king hell.------------- Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands. |
Posted By: Flanno7hi
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 2:06pm
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Jesus Christ, if you want to see what justice would like maybe look at the difference in the way those responsible for the station nightclub fire in the states were treated https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire Also, there seems to have been a concerted effort to cover up the truth and to lead the enquiry to an arson verdict in particular the fact that the storeroom containing a lot flamamble liquids was in the ceiling space next to electrical cabling and not "above the basement" as was claimed in the official report (there was no basement). ------------- Our City. Our Community. Our Club IG @flanno_7hi |
Posted By: irishmufc
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 2:19pm
Watched the 6 part mini docs on that a few weeks back on you tube. The video footage is very chilling. Literally in the space of 30 seconds it went from the music being played to total panic. The cameraman was smart enough to leave as soon as he did. ------------- Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been. |
Posted By: Flanno7hi
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 3:17pm
He didn't get out fast enough: In February 2008, Providence television station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WPRI-TV" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire#cite_note-37" rel="nofollow -
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Posted By: eireland
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2019 at 12:34am
| I was going to ask if they locked them to stop people opening them and letting lads in but I see that's already confirmed. Many nightclubs I used to attend the staffs heads would be wrecked with lads opening them and then about 20 fellas rushing in. |
Posted By: DUBLIN DOC
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2019 at 10:40am
------------- When all is said and done there is nothing left to say or do |
Posted By: irishmufc
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2019 at 10:41am
Posted By: Lenny82 Date Posted: 19 Feb 2019 at 9:33pm
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