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Scotland down the years

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Topic: Scotland down the years

Posted By: McG
Subject: Scotland down the years
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 3:24pm

Always struck me. They’ve had some quality individuals down the decades but so many cases of players earning so little caps.

Hansen 26 caps
McClair 30 caps
George Graham 12 caps

Clubs get in the way? Players not arsed?

Just off top of my head but there’s loads of examples.

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YBIG Table Quiz winner 2016 & 2017
AS YOU WERE McGx

Replies:

Posted By: killer kilbane
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 3:31pm

Dave mackay 22
Arthur Graham 11

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And it's come through now to mackay... and it's there

Posted By: McG
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 3:40pm

Andy Gray 20 caps (what a player)
Jimmy Johnstone 23 caps (even better)

Did they play f all games as a national team? But Kenny D got over 100 caps!

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YBIG Table Quiz winner 2016 & 2017
AS YOU WERE McGx

Posted By: Gary McKay
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 3:50pm

Dalglish never got injured.

Andy Gray around same time as Dalglish, Joe Jordan, Derek Johnstone, Graeme Sharp etc. Gray very injury prone if I remember correctly.

McClair, McCoist, Mo Johnston, McElvennie etc same time.

MacKay and Jimmy Johnstone cases are unusual.

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"Smalling and Jones.... have the potential to be the PL’s best ever pairing in my opinion." - SlurAlex

Posted By: Gary McKay
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 3:52pm

You could say them same about some Irish players - Giles, Heighway etc

And there was less games back then, maybe two qualifiers a year.

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"Smalling and Jones.... have the potential to be the PL’s best ever pairing in my opinion." - SlurAlex

Posted By: Baldrick
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 4:01pm

Andy Gray was only OK and he wasn't as goof as the lads ahead of him such as Dalglish and Jordan and Sharp etc.

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AKA pedantic kunt

Posted By: Zinedine Kilbane 110
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 4:20pm

Scotland got to all the world cups in the 80’s so were a decent team.

But back then there was a lot less games.

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Posted By: ErsatzThistle
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 4:30pm

McG wrote:

Always struck me. They’ve had some quality individuals down the decades but so many cases of players earning so little caps.

Hansen 26 caps
McClair 30 caps
George Graham 12 caps

Clubs get in the way? Players not arsed?

Just off top of my head but there’s loads of examples.

Alan Hansen was poor at international level. Alex Ferguson in his autobiography even insinuated that Hansen was never really all that bothered with international football.

Brian McClair too few caps ? Other way round, he got too many. Talk to any Scotland fans who saw him playing for Scotland. McClair was bloody awful at international level. Thirty caps and just two goals to show for it.

George Graham in his prime at an underachieving Arsenal side was up against too much competition at international level to become a regular. For example .....

Our managers of the late sixties/early seventies Bobby Brown, Tommy Docherty and Willie Ormond could pick from Billy Bremner, Jim Baxter, Pat Stanton, Willie Henderson, Jimmy Johnstone, Davie Hay, Archie Gemmill, Peter Cormack, Asa Hartford and Tommy Hutchinson in midfield amongst others.

killer kilbane wrote:

Dave mackay 22
Arthur Graham 11

Dave Mackay actually got a pretty respectable number of caps considering how less friendlies were played then and only one sub was allowed. Should be remembered that with the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia still existing back then, there were obviously less countries to play.

Arthur Graham had the same problem as George Graham. Too much competition. He was up against Gordon Strachan, John Wark, John Robertson, Davie Cooper and Davie Provan for caps.

Gary McKay wrote:

Dalglish never got injured.

Andy Gray around same time as Dalglish, Joe Jordan, Derek Johnstone, Graeme Sharp etc. Gray very injury prone if I remember correctly.

McClair, McCoist, Mo Johnston, McElvennie etc same time.

MacKay and Jimmy Johnstone cases are unusual.

Graeme Sharp and Steve Archibald were two brilliant club players. What's a mystery is why they proved totally useless at international level.

Joe Jordan remains a big TA hero. Always gave it his best and obviously loved playing for his county.

Mo Johnstone was a really good player for Scotland and deserved more caps. Scored some cracking (and important) goals for us. And my Gran still fancies him LOL

Frank McAvennie was a big headed **** who refused to play in a friendly match circa 1990 and Andy Roxburgh quite correctly never picked McAvennie again.

McG wrote:

Andy Gray 20 caps (what a player)
Jimmy Johnstone 23 caps (even better)

Did they play f all games as a national team? But Kenny D got over 100 caps!

Andy Gray definitely should have got more caps. Both Ally MacLeod and Jock Stein made serious errors of judgement not given Gray more opportunities at international level.

Celtic's Jimmy Johnstone together with Ranger's Jim Baxter were on their day two wonderful, magnificent footballers without a doubt. However with the green tinted specs and the blue tinted specs removed people will tell you that they were both inconsistent at club and international level and not always what you would call "team players". Of course some don't react too well when they are are told the truth like that........

Posted By: McG
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 4:34pm

Good insight ET.
Many more examples I’m sure.

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YBIG Table Quiz winner 2016 & 2017
AS YOU WERE McGx

Posted By: ErsatzThistle
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 4:56pm

McG wrote:

Good insight ET.
Many more examples I’m sure.

Nae problem McG.

For reasons that are completely unknown to his day, John McGovern of Brian Clough's famous Derby County and Nott'm Forest teams never got a single cap despite several of his teammates becoming Scotland regulars. No one knows why exactly and of course the responsible Scotland managers Willie Ormond, Ally MacLeod and Jock Stein are no longer here to explain why.

This is an old thread on the TAMB discussing good players who never got any caps if your interested

http://tamb.net/archive/index.php?s=f97bfed4477533d1833fe1a06d58a1a8&showtopic=149933#entry2541533" rel="nofollow - http://tamb.net/archive/index.php?s=f97bfed4477533d1833fe1a06d58a1a8&showtopic=149933#entry2541533

Morton legend Andy Ritchie, Aberdeen's John McMaster and Chelsea's Kevin McAllister are the most frequent names to come up when it comes to the subject of good Scots players who never got capped.

Posted By: Gary McKay
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 5:09pm

ET
Was there ever any pressure put on managers to play home based players ?

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"Smalling and Jones.... have the potential to be the PL’s best ever pairing in my opinion." - SlurAlex

Posted By: ErsatzThistle
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 5:40pm

Gary McKay wrote:

ET
Was there ever any pressure put on managers to play home based players ?

Hell yes.

Up until about 1970 there was a great debate about whether "too many Anglos" were getting picked. Many old boys on the terraces at Hampden and even some of the Glasgow football press could be scathing about those players based at English teams and wanted a Scots based players only approach. Absolute nonsense when you think about it. A stupid attitude it was.

We only got our first manager (briefly) in 1954 followed by another three years of the infamous SFA selection committee (who picked every single team from 1872-1953) then we had managers attached to the team. Some of them more under the thumb of the SFA than others.

Some members of the SFA selection committee were also childishly petty men who held grudges against certain clubs and their directors or managers or players for various reasons and would lobby against their players being capped. Ridiculous.

Up until circa 1939 there was also an utterly despicable anti-Catholic attitude on the part of some selection committee members who wanted the amount of Catholics in the team kept to a minimum. This is undoubtedly the reason why Jimmy McGrory only got a paltry seven caps.

Finally, before England, Scotland, Wales and what I shall diplomatically call the IFA team re-joined FIFA in 1947, English clubs were allowed to withdraw players from selection by their native countries and face no repercussions. That is the reason why the great Alex James of Preston and Arsenal only got a mere eight caps.

Posted By: Gary McKay
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 6:47pm

I thought so.
Cheers for that.

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"Smalling and Jones.... have the potential to be the PL’s best ever pairing in my opinion." - SlurAlex

Posted By: Territorial
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 7:10pm

For years, right through the 1960's and beyond, there was a bias against players at provincial Scottish clubs, in favour of the Old Firm.

For example, Alan Gilzean scored 169 goals in 190 league games for the outstanding Dundee team which won the title in 1962, reaching the semi-finals of the European Cup the following season, yet only got 4 caps during that time. He mostly played Inside Right for them, yet he was kept out of the Scotland team by Jim Baxter. Baxter later flopped in England, whilst Gilzean joined Spurs at 26, won four trophies with them and played for another 10 years. He added a mere 18 caps to his total. Yet by the time Baxter retired at 31, having done nothing in his last three or four seasons, he still had 34 caps.

And when the maximum wage was subsequently abolished in England and more players went South, there was a bias against "Anglo's". Dave Mackay, for example, was truly world class, arguably Scotland's finest ever player. Bill Nicholson described him as his greatest ever signing, ahead of the likes of Greaves and Jennings etc, he was Footballer of the Year aged 36, playing on for another 2 years. He, too, got just 22 caps.

Charlie Cooke suffered on both counts (provincial and Anglo) and so only got a paltry 16 caps. whilst Scotland capped the likes of Willie Henderson instead.

Of course Dalglish got over 100 caps, but then again, he was a (former) Celt. And Ally McCoist, who flopped at Sunderland, got 61 caps(!) basically for being a Hun.

And people wonder why Scotland never delivered on the international stage, despite having so many outstanding players available to them.

Posted By: ErsatzThistle
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 7:30pm

Territorial wrote:

For years, right through the 1960's and beyond, there was a bias against players at provincial Scottish clubs, in favour of the Old Firm.

Charlie Cooke suffered on both counts (provincial and Anglo) and so only got a paltry 16 caps. whilst Scotland capped the likes of Willie Henderson instead.

Of course Dalglish got over 100 caps, but then again, he was a (former) Celt. And Ally McCoist, who flopped at Sunderland, got 61 caps(!) basically for being a Hun.

And people wonder why Scotland never delivered on the international stage, despite having so many outstanding players available to them.

Deeply flawed as he was (just like Jimmy Johnstone) Jim Baxter played some of his best football in a Scotland jersey. He lived to take on England and torment them on the pitch. That's why we picked him and it frequently payed off. Judging Jim Baxter on his time at Sunderland and Forest is rank stupidity. Using the same rule of them, Jimmy Johnstone should be written off because his spell at Sheffield Utd was underwhelming. Nonsense. Baxter was a Scotland great.

Stan Matthews and Pele both rated Baxter very highly but what the feck did they two ever know about football ........

Willie Henderson was an excellent Scotland player. Admired and valued for his consistency, determination and effort which were what led to him being a regular over Cooke and rightly so.

Dave Mackay was amongst our best players but he was not the very best. That's between Dalglish and Law. As I've said before, Mackay got a fair amount of caps, to complain that he "only got 22 caps" is ignoring the fact that there were fewer friendlies played then, only one substitution allowed and less European countries available to play against.

Posted By: Denis Irwin
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 7:36pm

ET who in your opinion was the best player to have never been capped/been sparsely capped by Scotland

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Eamonn Dunphy:"I'll tell you who wrote it, Rod Liddle, he's the guy who ran away and left his wife for a young one".

Bill O'Herlihy: Ah ye can't be saying that now Eamonn

Posted By: Gary McKay
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 7:41pm

Charlie Cooke is still coaching the Coerver Method in his mid 70s.

Met him a few years ago, fit as a fiddle doing Cruijff turns. Gent.

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"Smalling and Jones.... have the potential to be the PL’s best ever pairing in my opinion." - SlurAlex

Posted By: Territorial
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 8:53pm

ErsatzThistle wrote:

Deeply flawed as he was (just like Jimmy Johnstone) Jim Baxter played some of his best football in a Scotland jersey. He lived to take on England and torment them on the pitch. That's why we picked him and it frequently payed off. Judging Jim Baxter on his time at Sunderland and Forest is rank stupidity. Using the same rule of them, Jimmy Johnstone should be written off because his spell at Sheffield Utd was underwhelming. Nonsense. Baxter was a Scotland great.

In just 5 years with Rangers, Baxter gained 27 caps, whilst (his contemporary) Gilzean gained 22 caps during 16 years at the top level with Dundee and Spurs.

As for Baxter's time at Sunderland and Forest, my point was despite by then being a drunk who was crippled by injury, he still gained another 7 caps.

Meanwhile, Johnstone deserved every one of his caps because they were all gained playing for a great Celtic team - he was never capped again after leaving Parkhead, which was probably right.

ErsatzThistle wrote:

Stan Matthews and Pele both rated Baxter very highly but what the feck did they two ever know about football ........

I'll see your Matthews and Pele and raise you my Bill Nicholson, Jimmy Greaves, Johann Cruyff and Miljan Miljanic, all of whom were effusive in their admiration for Gilzean.

ErsatzThistle wrote:

Willie Henderson was an excellent Scotland player. Admired and valued for his consistency, determination and effort which were what led to him being a regular over Cooke and rightly so.

So it's "consistency, determination and effort" you're after?

Cooke played over 500 League games (alone) for Aberdeen, Dundee, Chelsea and Palace in a career spanning 18 years. He got 16 caps.

Meanwhile, his contemporary Henderson got nearly twice as many caps during 12 years, all spent with Rangers.

ErsatzThistle wrote:

Dave Mackay was amongst our best players but he was not the very best. That's between Dalglish and Law. As I've said before, Mackay got a fair amount of caps, to complain that he "only got 22 caps" is ignoring the fact that there were fewer friendlies played then, only one substitution allowed and less European countries available to play against.

I'm not saying Mackay was "better" than Law or Dalglish, but he undoubtedly deserves to be mentioned in the same regard as a true great. Yet whilst Law got 55 caps, Mackay got a mere 22 over much the same period.

And Dalglish got a (well-deserved) 102 caps. I don't think Scotland played nearly five times as many games during his era.

Posted By: Bob Hoskins
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2017 at 11:29pm

There mus have been a lot of the Celtic European Cup winners team playing for Scotland, yis must have had a good team back then Ersatz??

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Romario 2016: And the ticket mafia gets caught! Well, four years ago I had already told the government.

Posted By: killer kilbane
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2018 at 2:21am

Johny Giles was talking about Dave Mackay getting so little caps for Scotland which he said was scandalous but Bremner was actually playing so well for Scotland they couldnt drop him. Mackay was a hero to Bremner he also said

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And it's come through now to mackay... and it's there

Posted By: Trap junior
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2018 at 3:03am

The Scots were too tight to pay for their transport home so said they were injured

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Pied Piper to: Baldrick, Brendan 88, 9Fingers, Borussia and more...

97.6% chance this post will be replied to by Baldrick (source: PWC)

Posted By: Territorial
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2018 at 5:12pm

killer kilbane wrote:

Johny Giles was talking about Dave Mackay getting so little caps for Scotland which he said was scandalous but Bremner was actually playing so well for Scotland they couldnt drop him. Mackay was a hero to Bremner he also said

Dunno how I could have discussed this without referencing one of my favourite football photos of all time:

Anyhow, this guy has an interesting take on Mackay:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8825BAAAQBAJ&pg=PA146&lpg=PA146&dq=Douglas+Alexander,+journalist,+Sunday+Times,+sports&source=bl&ots=-i-f4XjZpx&sig=E7-WpTC9HHo1_WyksoTcPIYSjW8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilko6GgtrYAhWHLcAKHUwTD6EQ6AEIWzAJ#v=onepage&q=Douglas%20Alexander%2C%20journalist%2C%20Sunday%20Times%2C%20sports&f=false" rel="nofollow - http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8825BAAAQBAJ&pg=PA146&lpg=PA146&dq=Douglas+Alexander,+journalist,+Sunday+Times,+sports&source=bl&ots=-i-f4XjZpx&sig=E7-WpTC9HHo1_WyksoTcPIYSjW8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilko6GgtrYAhWHLcAKHUwTD6EQ6AEIWzAJ#v=onepage&q=Douglas%20Alexander%2C%20journalist%2C%20Sunday%20Times%2C%20sports&f=false

Note that when Sir Alex Ferguson and Hugh McIlvanney got together to pick their greatest ever Scotland team, not only did they include Mackay, but they made him Captain.

P.S. Apparently he was proud of his record of never getting sent off in his entire career!

Posted By: reddladd
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2018 at 5:27pm

Bremner not going to put up any resistance there! Venables in the background.

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I could agree with you but then we'd both be wrong.

Posted By: Zinedine Kilbane 110
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2020 at 1:53pm

No suitable thread

Billy Gilmour named in the U21 squad.

Surprised he wasn’t put into the senior squad. He looked great for Chelsea the last 2 games.

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Posted By: PaddyDaCulchie
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2020 at 2:31pm

Not suitable thread either but does anyone know of decent irish pubs in Aberdeen?

Posted By: Territorial
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2020 at 4:02pm

PaddyDaCulchie wrote:

Not suitable thread either but does anyone know of decent irish pubs in Aberdeen?

Are there no decent Scottish pubs in Aberdeen then?

Posted By: MC Hammered
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2020 at 4:22pm

Territorial wrote:

PaddyDaCulchie wrote:

Not suitable thread either but does anyone know of decent irish pubs in Aberdeen?

Are there no decent Scottish pubs in Aberdeen then?

Why not mix with the glitterati in Peep Peeps? Some set of tits at the 2:18 mark Heart

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_guDN7IZ0U" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_guDN7IZ0U

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El Puto Amo

Posted By: PaddyDaCulchie
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2020 at 4:41pm

Territorial wrote:

PaddyDaCulchie wrote:

Not suitable thread either but does anyone know of decent irish pubs in Aberdeen?

Are there no decent Scottish pubs in Aberdeen then?

No idea, just on my way up there now for work

Posted By: Territorial
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2020 at 4:45pm

MC Hammered wrote:

Territorial wrote:

PaddyDaCulchie wrote:

Not suitable thread either but does anyone know of decent irish pubs in Aberdeen?

Are there no decent Scottish pubs in Aberdeen then?

Why not mix with the glitterati in Peep Peeps? Some set of tits at the 2:18 mark Heart

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_guDN7IZ0U" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_guDN7IZ0U

"It's nae a posh, up-market place"

Really? We'd never have guessed LOL

Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2020 at 5:01pm

It’s a shame it is closed, it looks tremendous fun.

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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.

Posted By: PaddyDaCulchie
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2020 at 5:32pm

pre Madonna wrote:

It’s a shame it is closed, it looks tremendous fun.

How come all the rough and ready sh*tholes keep closing? They always the best. Bairds in Glasgow was great spot if ya didnt mind not having a toilet street, bog roll and having to sh*t in front of a crowd due to no toilet doors half the time

Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2020 at 5:59pm

PaddyDaCulchie wrote:

pre Madonna wrote:

It’s a shame it is closed, it looks tremendous fun.

I was in the new Baird’s and I liked it, it isn’t the same though. I actually think a lot of pubs and pub companies are doing themselves out of business by not catering for different markets. There used to be pubs for different occasions, times and situations. It is harder to find the dodgy kip now.

There used be a decent dive bar near me. The clientele was heavy drinking regulars by day, music fans at night and football fans at weekends. It had some cracking punk and ska nights, barely drinkable beer but very cheap shots and bottles. It kicked all the regulars out, had a refurbishment and is now empty every time I walk past.

In saying that, I was in Scotland for the first time in a while recently and found there was a better mix. The Central Bar in Leith is still as it was! Change from a fiver for two drinks, everybody a different level of drunk and the worst pub band I have heard. Tremendous.

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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.

Posted By: PaddyDaCulchie
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2020 at 6:17pm

pre Madonna wrote:

PaddyDaCulchie wrote:

pre Madonna wrote:

It’s a shame it is closed, it looks tremendous fun.

Egerton arms in Stockport like that, £1.80 for pint of John Smith's, £2.30 for Carling, mix of pikeys, Bagheads, oaps, homeless lads stinking place out, and the hi vis brigade after work. Bar half the crowd, go bust, change owners, let everyone back in and same thing again. Dukebox free and half the fights start over that.

Posted By: pre Madonna
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2020 at 6:34pm

Just had a quick search and one of the first stories I find is of two regulars who decapitated a lad and set him on fire. Shocked

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Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.

Posted By: PaddyDaCulchie
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2020 at 7:20pm

[QUOTE=pre Madonna]Just had a quick search and one of the first stories I find is of two regulars who decapitated a lad and set him ]

Least they didn't do it in the pub

Posted By: McG
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2020 at 9:01am

Stewart Houston - 1 cap

left back. 7 years at man united making 250 apps.

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YBIG Table Quiz winner 2016 & 2017
AS YOU WERE McGx

Posted By: Gary McKay
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2020 at 11:15am

McG wrote:

Stewart Houston - 1 cap

left back. 7 years at man united making 250 apps.

He obviously had a problem !!!

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"Smalling and Jones.... have the potential to be the PL’s best ever pairing in my opinion." - SlurAlex

Posted By: ErsatzThistle
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2020 at 1:18pm

McG wrote:

Stewart Houston - 1 cap

left back. 7 years at man united making 250 apps.

He was up against Sandy Jardine and Danny McGrain for that role at international level. Both never let us down. .

Allan Evans and Ken McNaught were Aston Villa's central defence when they won the European Cup. Evans only got four caps and McNaught zero because of the quality and consistency of Willie Miller and Alex McLeish.

Hamish McAlpine and Campbell Money were two good goalkeepers but neither ever got any caps because of Jim Leighton's reliability in internationals.

My Granddad is still unhappy that one of his all time favourite players, Ian McMillan (Airdrie & Rangers) only got six caps.

Posted By: McG
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2020 at 1:22pm

ErsatzThistle wrote:

McG wrote:

Stewart Houston - 1 cap

left back. 7 years at man united making 250 apps.

He was up against Sandy Jardine and Danny McGrain for that role at international level. Both never let us down. .

Hamish McAlpine and Campbell Money were two good goalkeepers but neither ever got any caps because of Jim Leighton's reliability in internationals.

My Granddad is still unhappy that one of his all time favourite players, Ian McMillan (Airdrie & Rangers) only got six caps.

Good info Thistle Thumbs Up

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YBIG Table Quiz winner 2016 & 2017
AS YOU WERE McGx

Posted By: BaileNuisBhoy
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2020 at 3:16pm

ErsatzThistle wrote:

McG wrote:

Stewart Houston - 1 cap

left back. 7 years at man united making 250 apps.

He was up against Sandy Jardine and Danny McGrain for that role at international level. Both never let us down. .

Hamish McAlpine and Campbell Money were two good goalkeepers but neither ever got any caps because of Jim Leighton's reliability in internationals.

My Granddad is still unhappy that one of his all time favourite players, Ian McMillan (Airdrie & Rangers) only got six caps.

who was better in your opinion? McGrain or Jardine?

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Say no to Egg Chasing!!!

Posted By: ErsatzThistle
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2020 at 3:44pm

BaileNuisBhoy wrote:

who was better in your opinion? McGrain or Jardine?[/QUOTE]

They played long before my time but I love talking to my folks about what they remembered and reading feedback from other fans about those times.

The problem with the whole Danny McGrain and Sandy Jardine debate is that unfortunately it's often seen through either blue or green tinted specs which doesn't make for a very productive debate.

Some have said that Jardine was the better tackler. Some have said that McGrain was the better athlete. Others say that they were both equally as good.

My Dad (a Rangers fan) thinks that they were both brilliant players but that on reflection McGrain was probably slightly better.

Granddad (who saw his first Scotland game in 1942) maintains that the late Eric Caldow is the best full back he's ever seen play for Scotland.

Posted By: BaileNuisBhoy
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 11:08am

ErsatzThistle wrote:

BaileNuisBhoy wrote:

who was better in your opinion? McGrain or Jardine?

They played long before my time but I love talking to my folks about what they remembered and reading feedback from other fans about those times.

The problem with the whole Danny McGrain and Sandy Jardine debate is that unfortunately it's often seen through either blue or green tinted specs which doesn't make for a very productive debate.

Some have said that Jardine was the better tackler. Some have said that McGrain was the better athlete. Others say that they were both equally as good.

My Dad (a Rangers fan) thinks that they were both brilliant players but that on reflection McGrain was probably slightly better.

Granddad (who saw his first Scotland game in 1942) maintains that the late Eric Caldow is the best full back he's ever seen play for Scotland.

[/QUOTE]cheers 👍🏻

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Say no to Egg Chasing!!!

Posted By: McG
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2020 at 8:55pm

Eddie Gray - 12 caps over 8 years

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YBIG Table Quiz winner 2016 & 2017
AS YOU WERE McGx

Posted By: ErsatzThistle
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2020 at 9:01pm

McG wrote:

Eddie Gray - 12 caps over 8 years

Eddie Gray on his day was a beautiful footballer.

Unfortunately, he was also notoriously injury prone. Hence the lack of caps.

Posted By: McG
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2020 at 9:12pm

nearly 600 appearances for Leeds wouldnt suggest he was too prone to injury. a few low numbers in the early 70s but apart from that, he must have timed his injuries well for international football

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YBIG Table Quiz winner 2016 & 2017
AS YOU WERE McGx

Posted By: ErsatzThistle
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2020 at 9:55pm

McG wrote:

nearly 600 appearances for Leeds wouldnt suggest he was too prone to injury. a few low numbers in the early 70s but apart from that, he must have timed his injuries well for international football

I have to respectfully disagree with you there McG.

Some of those seasons where he was clearly suffering from injuries were years where he really could have been most useful to our national team.

Gray had a lot of competition for a spot on the wing for Scotland in the years he was active. Good players such as Jim Baxter, Willie Henderson, Jimmy Johnstone, Willie Morgan, Archie Gemmill, Willie Johnstone, Charlie Cooke and Peter Cormack for example were all among the players competing with Gray for a place in the team.

Some of those players particularly Willie Henderson (whom Pele was an admirer of) and Archie Gemmill were very good, reliable internationals who often did not deserve to be dropped.

The same thing happened to the famous "terrible trio" (Willie Bauld, Alfie Conn Snr and Jimmy Wardhaugh) who scored tons of goals for the successful Hearts league and cup winning teams of the mid-late fifties. They only got a mere six caps between them because the competition among players for places, one of whom was a teenager playing for Huddersfield Town called Denis Law.

Posted By: McG
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2020 at 10:08pm

Solid info as always ET Thumbs Up

Eddie was on OffTheBall this eve celebrating John Gile's 80th. I knew he was a Leeds legend and googled his caps, was surprised they were so low.

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YBIG Table Quiz winner 2016 & 2017
AS YOU WERE McGx

Posted By: Cabra Hoop
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2020 at 10:16pm

It's well known that Revie dissuaded his Leeds players from playing for their countries. Giles got very few of his lowly 59 caps (over 20 years) during his best playing years between 66 and 73. Bremner to his credit often refused Revies call to cry off for Scotland. If you compare international caps for Giles and Bremner between 66 and 73, it'll make you think. Get it that Scotland had the HN which we didn't but there is a large deficit on the Giles side. Giles 14 v Bremner 39, and Bremner had a lot for competition for his place.

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" BFC always gives me a laugh........ "

Posted By: Territorial
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2020 at 10:33pm

Dave Mackay got just 22 Scotland caps.

Here is what Jimmy Greaves said about him:

"My old Tottenham http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/dave-mackay-dead-scotland-hearts-5261808" rel="nofollow - team-mate Dave Mackay was the most complete professional footballer I've ever known, on and off the pitch.

He was a genuinely hard b****d and a truly gifted ball player a combination which is so rare.

Dave could play in any outfield position, was a world-class midfield enforcer and sweeper and even understudied for me up front when I was suspended for a European semi-final."

Harry Redknapp:

"Dave Mackay was one of the best I've ever seen. Jimmy Greaves was the greatest goal scorer, and George Best was just the best. The greatest."

George Best:

"The hardest man I have ever played against – and certainly the bravest".

Brian Clough said that signing Mackay, by then a veteran, was: "the best day's business I did in my life"

And I think I'm right in saying Bill Nicholson considered him the best player in the great Spurs Double team - one of the greatest teams English football has ever seen.

Then there's this:

Mackay reportedly hated this picture since it made him look a bully, when he was so much more than that. But context is everything: Bremner had gone out of his way to kick Mackay on the leg he had just come back from breaking for the second time. Either way, I think the referee was so relieved that Mackay didn't kill him that he didn't send him off, thereby allowing Mackay to maintain his proud record of never having been sent off in over 700 games.

Meanwhile, Billy Bremner got 54 caps.

Posted By: ErsatzThistle
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2020 at 10:40pm

McG wrote:

Solid info as always ET Thumbs Up

Eddie was on OffTheBall this eve celebrating John Gile's 80th. I knew he was a Leeds legend and googled his caps, was surprised they were so low.

Johnny Giles was my Dad's (as a lad he supported Leeds as his "English team") favourite non-Scottish player when he was a youth and he still thinks very highly of one of Ireland's greatest ever players Thumbs Up

Frank Gray (Eddie's brother) did get a respectable thirty two caps for the national team.

Funnily enough, when we've discussed over on the TAMB the players who should have got more caps, one name that frequently comes up is Steve Clarke.

Tom Cairney (two caps) is the one player from the last ten years who should have gotten more caps than he did. Strachan was stubbornly loyal to the too often underwhelming Barry Bannan and James McArthur and was reluctant to try out new blood in central midfield for too long.

Posted By: gmfc90
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2020 at 10:42pm

ErsatzThistle wrote:

McG wrote:

Solid info as always ET Thumbs Up

Eddie was on OffTheBall this eve celebrating John Gile's 80th. I knew he was a Leeds legend and googled his caps, was surprised they were so low.

Frank Gray (Eddie's brother) did get a respectable thirty two caps for the national team.

Funnily enough, when we've discussed over on the TAMB the players who should have got more caps, one name that frequently comes up is Steve Clarke.

Cairney has no interest in playing for Scotland

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Danger here, OH NO

Posted By: ErsatzThistle
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2020 at 11:01pm

Territorial wrote:

Dave Mackay got just 22 Scotland caps.

Here is what Jimmy Greaves said about him:

He was a genuinely hard b****d and a truly gifted ball player a combination which is so rare.

Dave could play in any outfield position, was a world-class midfield enforcer and sweeper and even understudied for me up front when I was suspended for a European semi-final."

Harry Redknapp:

"Dave Mackay was one of the best I've ever seen. Jimmy Greaves was the greatest goal scorer, and George Best was just the best. The greatest."

George Best:

"The hardest man I have ever played against – and certainly the bravest".

Brian Clough said that signing Mackay, by then a veteran, was: "the best day's business I did in my life"

And I think I'm right in saying Bill Nicholson considered him the best player in the great Spurs Double team - one of the greatest teams English football has ever seen.

Then there's this:

Meanwhile, Billy Bremner got 54 caps.

Another great club player but who also sometimes suffered injuries. He also played at a time when less friendly matches were played and less substitutes allowed.

Tellingly, according to my folks (who remember were actually in the stands watching these games at Hampden and who travelled down to Wembley) Mackay didn't always bring his club form with him to the national side.

There plenty of other decent defenders to consider too such as John Greig and the late, great Billy McNeill who were both natural born leaders.

I trust my folks judgement on this, they were actually there.

gmfc90 wrote:

Cairney has no interest in playing for Scotland

He seemed quite enthusiastic and relieved to finally be called up when Strachan did give him his long awaited call up so I disagree. He also turned up for the underage squads often enough.

Today we don't need him though.

I'm quite happy with the totally unglamorous but nonetheless hard working midfielders (such as Jack and McGinn) we have now and the ones coming through in the U21s (Gilmour, McCrorie, Campbell) at present.

Posted By: Territorial
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2020 at 11:37pm

ErsatzThistle wrote:

Another great club player but who also sometimes suffered injuries. He also played at a time when less friendly matches were played and less substitutes allowed.

Not so.

His two leg breaks (the second in a reserve game while he was making his comeback from the first) saw him miss 18 months, just at the height of his career.

Despite that, he still played over 700 times, including Clough buying him at 33 to build his promotion-winning Derby team around. (Clough wouldn't have taken that chance had there been a doubt over his fitness/injury record).

ErsatzThistle wrote:

There plenty of other decent defenders to consider too such as John Greig and the late, great Billy McNeill who were both natural born leaders.

I trust my folks judgement on this, they were actually there.

Then your folks will have known that Mackay wasn't a defender, he was a Left Half (midfielder in today's parlance).

And in his final years he dropped back to become one of the very first sweepers in the English game, with distinction, being voted FWA "Footballer of the Year" in 1969, aged 35.

Meanwhile Greig and McNeill, orthodox defenders, were respectably 8 and 6 years younger than Mackay, so their peak years didn't overlap with his.

Posted By: ErsatzThistle
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2020 at 11:51pm

Territorial, with all due respect my entire extended family (on my Dad's side Rangers and Celtic fans, on my Mum's side Celtic and Partick Thistle fans) were actually there at Hampden and Wembley watching these games back in the day.

They know what they saw and passed it on decades later. I wasn't. And you certainly were not either.

I'm told by eyewitnesses to many of Mackay's internationals that his form was erratic. There we have it. So unless you can invent a time machine, I firmly regard their accounts as the truth.

As a Northern Ireland fan, you may be interested to know that my Great-Grandfather (a Rangers fan who died decades before I was born) considered Crevolea native Sammy English to be one of the finest players he ever saw play at Ibrox.

Posted By: JUICEBOMB
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2020 at 12:00am

ErsatzThistle wrote:

Territorial, with all due respect my entire extended family (on my Dad's side Rangers and Celtic fans, on my Mum's side Celtic and Partick Thistle fans) were actually there at Hampden and Wembley watching these games back in the day.

They know what they saw and passed it on decades later. I wasn't. And you certainly were not either.

I'm told by eyewitnesses to many of Mackay's internationals that his form was erratic. There we have it. So unless you can invent a time machine, I firmly regard their accounts as the truth.

Can’t see what your parents being actually at the matches has to do with his point?he never questioned the form of Mackay...he just stated that his fitness wasn’t as bad as said and his position was left-half.

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hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard

Posted By: ErsatzThistle
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2020 at 12:17am

JUICEBOMB wrote:

They know what they saw and passed it on decades later. I wasn't. And you certainly were not either.

I'm told by eyewitnesses to many of Mackay's internationals that his form was erratic. There we have it. So unless you can invent a time machine, I firmly regard their accounts as the truth.

It was my parents own parents, uncles, grandparents who were at the games, Mum and Dad were not yet in the picture Wink

The point is more the "weren't they stupid not to give Mackay more caps ?" sentiment. As I've pointed out there was a reason he never got more caps - he didn't play as well in a Scotland shirt as he did in a Hearts or Spurs shirt. I can ask eyewitnesses who were there and not just rely on a nostalgic web article.

The same was true for Jim Baxter and Jimmy Johnstone, both legends of the game but sometimes inconsistent at both club and international level.

Posted By: Cabra Hoop
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2020 at 12:48am

ET, just wondering why Scotland didn't qualify for the 1966 WC considering how well Scottish teams were doing in European competition in the mid 60s and having p!ayers like Law, Mackay, Cooke, Bremner and Collins to pick from.

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" BFC always gives me a laugh........ "

Posted By: ErsatzThistle
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2020 at 1:17am

Cabra Hoop wrote:

ET, just wondering why Scotland didn't qualify for the 1966 WC considering how well Scottish teams were doing in European competition in the mid 60s and having p!ayers like Law, Mackay, Cooke, Bremner and Collins to pick from.

Same old Scotland. Same old story.

We changed managers during the campaign. Ian McColl took the first game and then Jock Stein agreed to take charge on a short term basis. A lot of people don't know that the big man actually had two spells managing Scotland.

In our group were Italy, Finland and Poland.

Beat Finland both times but the away win was not all that easy.

Drew against Poland away and then lost at home to them.

Italy at Hampden Park was next. On a freezing cold, slightly foggy November night. Just over 100,000 people were there that night. And nobody gave us a chance. We beat them 1-0.

In the eighty-eight minute, Jim Baxter played in a pass to John Greig of all people (who was playing out of position at right back) who took a shot and scored. Hampden went f**king mental. LOL

My Grandad was there that night and can still recall the foaming bottled beer flying everywhere (you could sneak a quarter bottle in easily in those days of course) under the floodlights and wee boys being thrown up in the air by their Dad's in celebration. Great stuff.

We then had to go to Naples. The Italians knew what they had to do and did it professionally. They beat us 3-0.

The country would have loved seeing us play in England in 1966 without a doubt. But we didn't do a good enough job in qualifying and truthfully didn't deserve to be there.

Posted By: Territorial
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2020 at 11:35am

JUICEBOMB wrote:

They know what they saw and passed it on decades later. I wasn't. And you certainly were not either.

I'm told by eyewitnesses to many of Mackay's internationals that his form was erratic. There we have it. So unless you can invent a time machine, I firmly regard their accounts as the truth.

Thank you JB.

On the matter of Mackay's fitness/injury record, from he signed for Spurs in 1959, until his first leg break in late 1963, his club playing record was as follows:

59/60 - 42 games

60/61 - 44 games

61/62 - 36 games

62/63 - 39 games

63/64 - 17 games (of 20 before the leg-break)

He got 11 caps during that period of 4 1/2 seasons, covering the period when he was at his absolute peak as one of the top 3 players in one of the top 3 clubs in Europe.

As a Half Back.

Posted By: McG
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2020 at 11:54am

I count about 15? Excluding the obvious unofficial game.

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YBIG Table Quiz winner 2016 & 2017
AS YOU WERE McGx

Posted By: Territorial
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2020 at 12:03pm

ErsatzThistle wrote:

The point is more the "weren't they stupid not to give Mackay more caps ?" sentiment. As I've pointed out there was a reason he never got more caps - he didn't play as well in a Scotland shirt as he did in a Hearts or Spurs shirt. I can ask eyewitnesses who were there and not just rely on a nostalgic web article.

It is, of course, entirely possible that whilst being a (genuinely) world-class player with Spurs, Mackay's performances for Scotland failed to reach that level.

But having finally dug out my old Spurs Compendium(!), I've spotted something unusual.

In season 1959/60, when Spurs paid Hearts a joint-record fee for a half-back, Mackay played 6 out of 7 of Scotland's games.

In 1960/61 he played the first three of their games, but missed the next three (he wasn't injured).

In 1961/62 he didn't play any of Scotland's six games (still not injured), while Scotland failed to qualify for the 1962 World Cup Finals.

In 1962/63 he was recalled to the team and played their first 3 games before breaking his leg in December.

And in the 1960/61 season, when Spurs were winning the Double etc, his last game before his 9 game exile was the famous 9-3.

And by looking at the succeeding games where clearly inferior players were being selected, it starts to look like Mackay may have been scapegoated for that humiliation. If so, he was in good company, since both Denis Law and Ian St.John were subsequently omitted too. St.John was eventually recalled, though still only ever gained 21 caps. Law, of course, went on to gain 55 caps; then again, he was the youngest of the three, so had time (and a new manager) to be "rehabilitated".

ErsatzThistle wrote:

The same was true for Jim Baxter and Jimmy Johnstone, both legends of the game but sometimes inconsistent at both club and international level.

Dunno nearly enough about either, but if both were as talented as Mackay, Baxter was also a complete waster, whose club career never came remotely close to that of Johnstone or Mackay.

Yet he gained 34 caps, to Mackay's 22 and Johnstone's 23.

Posted By: ErsatzThistle
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2020 at 4:05pm