the block has 400-500 people, probably a load more not registered too and no alarm went off by all accounts. 

up there with being knifed to death with a vile way to go.

seems it spread upwards via the external cladding

In the meantime, you're heart has to go out to all of those affected by this. 

 

Big time. How did the fire spread throughout the building so quickly? Apparently it was only renovated last year - they spent millions doing it up. Very sad situation in any event.

may is fully aware that a whole world of sh1t is going to open up over this, especially once the actual casualty figure comes out which could easily be over 100. i would expect to see massive public anger on the streets.

72 tory mps voted AGAINST a motion last year to make all homes "fit for human habitation" - many of whom were landlords. they are up to the necks in this. 

I always feel uncomfortable making something like this political, even if their appears to be some government responsibility. Not that I am saying Corbyn or May are, I just get the feeling the media are and I find it distasteful, especially when the death toll is still rising and will continue to do so.

I understand the press have a duty to find out what happened, but their timing is what I find distasteful. I mean I would be of the opinion, just from looking at what we know, that this was either massive incompetence or someone on the take, but I don't think finding out right now is going to help anyone at all. Unfortunately, finding out in a month's time won't sell newspapers. There does seem to be an opportunity being taken by same to mention the government's failing in this department. Again, I would wait until the dust has settled, if you forgive the unintentional pun for want of a better word, and find out exactly why it happened.

It is just the way everything is reported these days, yesterday ITV had us staring at a man fearing for his life as the nation munched their granola. I find it all very sinister to be honest.

Some of the stories are horrible. A statement from the fire brigade about been worried for the mental health of the people working at the blaze as what they saw and heard, they'd have never expected to have to deal with. 

"Health and safety" are words which have been consistently demonised by pro-business media and politicians. "Red tape" is another classic of the genre. 

When health and safety fails due to "light touch regulation", this is the result. 

Changes usually only come about due to real disasters like this.

The outcome of this will be Hillsborough-like and the reasons why it occurred are even worse than Hillsborough.

I never, ever said it wasn't. Just showing a bit of respect for those connected to it seems to be too much to ask of the media.

They aren't amplifying concerns, they are selling papers. I have seen articles that have tried to make a political football of it when they are still totting up the dead. When the dust has settled then yes, whoever is responsible must be brought to justice and everything must be done to prevent future catastrophes from happening, how it is being covered now, like everything else in this world, is nothing short of disgusting.

I'm not talking about the Daily Mail whose most noteworthy contribution in the aftermath of this has been to name they guy whose flat the fire apparently started in, I don't think we don't even know that yet for sure. 

BBC News, ITV News, Channel 4 News etc, reputable newspapers, these sources now have a duty to give a voice to the victims. 

From what I've seen so far they appear to be doing that, to be fair. 

Sadiq Khan went to the scene today and took criticism in a public manner. He at least went there and took it. 

It was the least May could have done. I'd have had more respect for her if she'd gone there and accepted that criticism. 

Show a bit of leadership and accept some public criticism rather than hiding away. 

At the moment we, the public, have nothing to criticise as we don't know what happened, it is important that we find out.

On the other hand, May had no right being there, why show your face then announce a public inquiry? Could of announced it without showing her face? I find this new public image she's trying portray, doing Waves at Int. Football matches etc very fake and thankfully people aren't buying it, at this rate she'll be turning up to an armed standoff with a fishing rod and some chicken next.

I think I have to clarify what I meant here as a few people seem to be taking me up the wrong way.

I fully expect local political figures and major party leaders to turn up to the scene when there is an event like this. It is what is expected.

My problem is reactions like above which suggests that May turning up out of duty is wrong and connected to the enquiry. She may well turn out to be in someway culpable, but even so it was her duty as PM to be there. This was a major tragedy in her capital city. 

 Likewise Khan,  Corbyn or whoever else wants to go. I don't see that as political point-scoring, in fact I think the politicians, on all sides, have dealt with the matter well.

It is the media, largely the tabloids as usual( but not exclusively), who have started pointing figures and accusing people when questions haven't even been asked yet. I think the media should be talking to the people on the ground there and reporting the story. To be apportioning blame when bodies are still being counted and for the media to be tagging it onto the election is disgusting.

There is no doubt that when the questions have been asked that this will be a political issue, just about everything is. Given that money had been spent to prevent this sort of incident from happening then this couldn't but be a political issue. My problem is with the timing, leave these people come to terms with what happened and while emotions are high calm heads are to be called for.

The politicians are, by and large, avoiding using this for point-scoring and I wish the media would stop trying do it for them.

The victims of this are working class people who the elites don't give a sh*t about. Just like Hillsborough. 

This could have been prevented had authorities given a sh*t. I mainly blame the Tories and their failed gospel of "light touch regulation" which turns everything it touches to shlt, but the previous Labour government are guilty too. 

The local Tory council don't appear to have given a shlt either. They're probably happy that they can now demolish the building and flog the land for a megabucks gentrification scheme.

There is no way possible that building and fire regulations were remotely up to scratch here.

Flammable materials used as cladding, no sprinkler system, no proper fire alarm, fire safety instructions given to residents that in many cases condemned them to their deaths. A fooking death trap if ever there was one. And how many other tower blocks all over the UK are similar death traps? 

These people "didn't matter" and that's the culture that prevails. 

Well, put it this way - that's Labour's majority in Kensington literally gone up in smoke. 

Eh?

After May's attitude today? Literally fobbed off the residents for a photo opportunity next to a tragedy? After the Tory council let this as you call death trap happen? 

If the new MP gets the re-housing right, if anything it'll significantly increase.

Yes, I think there's a good chance that will happen now, certainly if the election is in the near future. 

My point was that Labour have a majority of 20 in Kensington, and I highly imagine there were more than 20 more Labour voters than Tory voters in Grenfell Tower.

The conditions and reasons for the imposition of the cladding, according to the planning report, was 'to accord with the development plan by ensuring that the character and appearance of the area are preserved and living conditions of those living near the development suitably protected'. And also says 'The changes to the existing tower will improve its appearance especially when viewed from the surrounding area (the adjacent Avondale Conservation Area to the south and the Ladbroke Conservation Area to the east).

Exactly what I was talking about, while people discuss the political position of dead people. Stop the world.........

The funny thing is, I don't think I could be any more partisan, I won't even talk to a Tory unless I am getting paid for it, but sometimes those beliefs  become less important. How can the media be allowed to look for a political angle? The immediate response has been to run with a narrative that suits their editorial agenda and in doing so have desensitised a nation into thinking like this kind of discourse is ok!

We all know that someone is to blame here, be it incompetence or worse and I am sure I don't need to give my own views in how this came to pass. DI called it spot on, there are huge similarities to how Hillsborough was covered, which means it obviously isn't a new thing.

It's as political as it gets. 

It's about how "health and safety" has been demonised. It's about how"red tape", "nanny state" and "unnecessary regulations" (all deliberately pejorative phrases) have been demonised. 

It's about how "light touch regulation" (a "positive" phrase) has been treated as gospel. Criminally negligent regulation is a far more accurate phrase.

It's about how working class people, immigrants, the poor, the unemployed and the disabled (a disabled 70 year woman living on the 23rd floor, anyone?) have been demonised and not listened to.

I really don't get how some people are having a hard time understanding that. 

And we all know which party and which section of the media takes by far the lion's share of the blame for that.

They created the culture where this sort of thing and Hillsborough are allowed to happen.

Of course it is, but there is a time and a place to politicise it! That is the point.

I actually think that by immediately politicising it, before the death count has even been finalised, you are fuelling the belief that these people's lives are unimportant. Much like Hillsborough, something Britain appears to have learnt nothing from.

By politicising the deaths of people you, and so many more in the media, are dehumanising them. 

So, when the next tragedy comes around, caused by reasons we both know, we end up with two sides of the media flinging faeces at each other while people mourn and questions that should have been asked, or even were asked, get lost in the maelstrom of sh*t.

The time to politicise this political issue is NOW. 

By saying that "it shouldn't be politicised", you are running away from reality and letting the people and the political and media culture responsible off the hook.

Believe me, those responsible for the neglect, and the political culture of demonisation of poor people, will look to push this back on the victims, just like at Hillsborough. 

They already are.

Look at this from the scumbag Tory leader of Kensington and Chelsea Council. 

"The dead can't talk back, so let's blame them" is the strategy.

It will, unfortunately, be a lot higher. f**ked if I would be a fireman this week. I saw a crowdfunding page to raise money for a drinking session for them, if anybody ever deserved a pint it is those lads. 

Here's a list of how Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation neglected the nearby Adair Tower. It also had a fire in October 2015.

Which is what was done at Hillsborough, and we ended it up with everybody shouting over each other and the truth being ignored.

Let the people grieve.

The funny thing is, the reason Corbyn is getting political sympathy out of this is because he is doing just that. 

I also think you are 'letting them off the hook' far more by letting them to get excuses in before the truth, blurring the lines. The sensible thing to do is stand back, but sense isn't common. We need to dramatise every single thing, everything is a television show.

What happens after a disaster of this nature is that the Tories immediately go into not just damage limitation mode, but on the offensive and attempt to turn the blame back on the victims. 

They are trying to do this right now. 

They were allowed do it straight after Hillsborough and they must not be allowed do it again. 

We know at least three things for sure.

i) The cladding was a fire hazard. 

ii) There was no sprinkler system. 

iii) The fire alarm didn't work. 

So we know the building was unsafe, and we know the safety regulations were completely inadequate. 

We know other things too. We know a local Labour councillor made 9 official complaints on behalf of the residents of Grenfell Tower. She was told that "these people should be truly grateful for all the money that is being spent on them". 

We know that a blog post was written last November specifically predicting what has just happened.

And it's not just a case of sitting back and waiting for the results of an inquiry, because the likelihood is that there are many hundreds of other tower blocks which are similar fire hazards, and people have to live in them right now, and they have to sleep in them tonight.

Eight years ago there was a fire in London which killed six people, which was accelerated by cladding which was a fire hazard. 

That's eight years ago. 

I guess the narrative then was to sit back calmly and respectfully and wait for the results of the inquiry too. And precisely nothing was done.

Only anger will change things in this case and the more of it the better.

I agree that it is imperative that the truth must out as quickly as possible, I do not believe that a slanging war is the best way to do it. We have already seen how headlines are being used to distort the truth, flinging mud will not help that.

I am all in favour of honing anger, I am, ideologically at least, an anarchist, but it must be used correctly. By turning it into a matter that is about political ideology rather than human tragedy we are repeating the mistakes of Hillsborough. The people responsible were able to slip away from that scene as the media and politicians squabbled. 

We need to learn from those days and, so it would seem, that Corbyn has. We need to empathise with those who have suffered, get clear and proper answers as to why there has been such a deliberate breach of safety law and why nothing has been done since that previous fire. 

Just pointing fingers and shouting is the equivalent of banging your head off a wall, it shows passion and emotion but achieves absolutely nothing. 

The anger is because people know the truth here. 

They knew the truth after Hillsborough too. Only one side turned Hillsborough into a matter of political ideology and it wasn't the victims or their families and friends or the people of Liverpool. They had truth on their side. The liars only had lies to protect a political ideology.

The anger now is because people know political ideology has not just contributed but effectively caused these people's deaths. 

Anger now creates a force where there is no alternative but for the truth to come out.

Really? Because I am seeing it from all sides, including yourself. Which is exactly what those responsible want to happen.

It is a f**king disgrace.

Kensington is a very fragile issue for politicians as there's a massive rich/poor divide in the community. 

The poor have been displaced and there's private luxury homes just sat being un-used as, either as For Sale or because the Uni season is over, meanwhile less than 10 miles away you have members of the Royal Family living in a £5 million mansion.

It's that much of a political thing, even The Queen is involved - She stayed AWOL during the Aberfan disaster, and then again during the Princess Diana crash, which led to a high % of people questioning what even is the point in a British Monarchy, and Theresa May failing to do her bit gave The Queen no option but to show her face - I imagine Lizzie is pretty pissed at May, history shows you need to show your face otherwise you're lamb to the slaughter, even The Royals are not immune to it.

I wonder how many other council blocks this company "kitted" out across London. There are many similar towers to Grenfell that no doubt have the same internal design and only one stairs to escape in the event of fire.   

Lets see what the investigation returns, hopefully it prevents this happening again. Perhaps it turns out to be simply a tragic accident. If the external cladding was certified as being safe to use perhaps it was just simply a mistake. 

Or that the regulations were an utter joke. 

I've no doubt this cladding was certified as "safe". 

That's the whole point. The regulations are a joke. Just like in the financial industry. That's what happens when business captures government.

63,000 last year. 

Years of Tory ministers sitting on and suppressing reports and stonewalling fire safety chiefs.

Philip Hammond on Andrew Marr this morning saying that sprinkler systems may not be the best way to make buildings safer. "It's a technical matter and I'm not a technical expert."

Number of people who have died in UK fires in buildings with sprinkler systems installed: 0 (says the Fire Brigades Union).

The Tory Kensington Council running years of surpluses and having 42 million pounds in cash reserves. What did they do? They sent out a cheque for £100 to everybody in the borough (as long as you weren't a council tenant). 

Scumbags.

Rent in the tower was 2k a month for 2 beds.

They could afford 2k per month rent but wouldn't spend a fiver on a smoke alarm ?

 

 

The fire spread from the 8th floor to the 18th in about 7 minutes.

I know that is probably an attempt at humour but nobody said they could afford 2k, most people in London can't really afford their rent. It is a massive issue there.

As Bhob said, a smoke alarm would have been f**k all use to them.

You'll be pretty horrified at some of the things they find, specifically Kensington Council.

 

Were you reading the Daily Mail?

My money is on it being The Metro. 

Same ****s.

Did you watch Panorama? The Greenfell Tower Group segment and the Kensington Council Leader were hard to watch. 

Furthermore, it's being revealed today that if survivors refuse to move to other parts of the country then they will be classed as 'Intentionally homeless' which in the law states the council don't need to assist them if they have that status. 

I have more respect for Mr. Paget-Brown than I do for other Tories. 

He's an utter, utter coont of a man but at least he's honest and up front about it. He's authentic. You know what you're dealing with. 

Whereas the rest of the Tories are exactly the same as he is but they try to hide it.

I can empathise with that, a bit like Rees-Mogg.

I like the line on, i think it was Have I Got News For You - He looks like a childs drawing of what a Tory should look like.

Yeah, that was a cracker and incredibly accurate. He has become great friends in Westminster with Mhairí Black, which must be the most bizarre friendship since the Jungle Book.

Now all the residents complaints about the building and it's fire issues are a separate matter all together. I'd imagine that they weren't even aware of the cladding that was used. 

One final thing the council spent £10million, which is £83,000 per apartment, so they can not be accused of spending neglect, but was it just they refused to listen to anything the residents were saying and just went about it with the attitude of 'shut up we no best'?? 

Hardly a surprise. 

Tried putting a court injunction earlier in the morning to stop them attending. The man is pure scum.

I hear you.