Premier and First Division - Waterford may go.

Waterford may go.

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Topic: Waterford may go.

Posted By: corkery
Subject: Waterford may go.
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2012 at 11:30pm

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0824/1224322861559.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0824/1224322861559.html

They are not having a 7 team first divison. Can't blame them, FAI let too many mickey mouse teams in the first division.

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'The younger generation as in 17 -25 are certainly gayer than their predecessors. I think they may cause the extinction of the human race with their activities.'- Baldrick

Replies:

Posted By: Jason Kelly
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2012 at 11:36pm

Beat me too it

Those 2 Galway clubs are a joke alright, get rid of them and bring back Ramblers.

One tier league should be the way to go.

Edit: Galway United should be re instated too obviously. And i think a break away from the FAI should be looked at in the long term.

Posted By: Landon Donovan
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2012 at 11:47pm

Do Waterford have any schoolboy teams?

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Posted By: gazelle.
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2012 at 11:49pm

Jason Kelly wrote:

Beat me too it

Those 2 Galway clubs are a joke alright, get rid of them and bring back Ramblers.

One tier league should be the way to go.

Would love to see Queenstown back. I think GUST are applying for a licence too.

Defiantly need a one tiered league for the next few years. It would hugely benefit the small clubs to have the likes of Sligo, Rovers and Cork visiting.

Big clubs won't want it though. Shamrock Rovers want a 10 team premier again ffs. Every time it's tried it gets changed back again. Playing the same team four times a year is a joke.

Posted By: gazelle.
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2012 at 11:57pm

Jason Kelly wrote:

And i think a break away from the FAI should be looked at in the long term.

Agree with this. The way they've treated the league is a joke. Particular regards prize money. The licence fee is 19k yet most clubs make less than that from prize money.

In fact, last year, 21 teams paid 19k entrance fee which altogether amounted to 399k. Yet the overall prize money was 223,500. So the FAI actually MADE A PROFIT out of the league while clubs are on their knees.

Posted By: The U
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2012 at 12:00am

gazelle. wrote:

Jason Kelly wrote:

Beat me too it

Those 2 Galway clubs are a joke alright, get rid of them and bring back Ramblers.

One tier league should be the way to go.

Would love to see Queenstown back. I think GUST are applying for a licence too.

Defiantly need a one tiered league for the next few years. It would hugely benefit the small clubs to have the likes of Sligo, Rovers and Cork visiting.

Big clubs won't want it though. Shamrock Rovers want a 10 team premier again ffs. Every time it's tried it gets changed back again. Playing the same team four times a year is a joke.

why would small teams in Prem want it either? sham rvs coming to town twice or rvs once and SD Galway?

Posted By: Jason Kelly
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2012 at 12:05am

gazelle. wrote:

Jason Kelly wrote:

And i think a break away from the FAI should be looked at in the long term.

Agree with this. The way they've treated the league is a joke. Particular regards prize money. The licence fee is 19k yet most clubs make less than that from prize money.

Yep, those figures are spot on Gazelle, thats why i sugested it. Its a f**king disgrace. Their bankrupting our game to fund their jollies on the continent. The quicker clubs realise this and make a breakaway from that farce of an organisation the better.

For the forseeable future, a single league is the way to go imo. A 2 tier league is just not sustainable at the moment for the smaller clubs. The possibility of having a 7 team 1st Division is just lunacy.

Posted By: deise316
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2012 at 12:07am

Something has to change, there is no way a 7 team league (even saying it out loud sounds ridiculous FFS) is sustainable. I don't think John O'Sullivan (chairman) is making idle threats either, it would be the common consensus here that it is his own personal money keeping the club afloat the past few years, and he isn't exactly Abramovich.

@ Landon, Waterford have 26 (I stand to be corrected) teams in the local schoolboys league.

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Picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.....

Posted By: gazelle.
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2012 at 12:15am

UCD AFC wrote:

why would small teams in Prem want it either? sham rvs coming to town twice or rvs once and SD Galway?

Would you feel the same way if UCD get relegated this year I wonder?

Gammy teams like Salthill and Mervue couldn't be included. AFAIK they are dropping out at the end of this year anyway.

The single division would be to benefit the likes of Waterford, Limerick, Longford, Athlone and Finn Harps. Clubs that could be mid table premier sides or better if they were given the chance to get the benefits of having the big boys in town. They'd have a better chance than UCD anyway.

The survival of these clubs could depend on a single division as Waterfords chairman has already stated.

Posted By: deise316
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2012 at 12:20am

Lifted this lengthy post from BTID, courtesy of the poster ' Bluebeard' there.

A lot of valid points, and a few concrete suggestions to go with them;

I know that all of us have, over the years and even this season, had various gripes with the club about different things, but I think that we are truly united behind the club on this. Something clearly needs to be done. A discussion must take place. However, it appears that without the threat of action, nothing will happen. It may seem a risky strategy - none of us want the club to leave the league - but there are no rewards without risk. The League needs to see that changing from 10 to 12 in the top division every couple of years is not fixing things for very many. If everyone acts like there is no problem, nothing will change.

I am reminded of that famous Primo Levi line from a much more gruesome circumstance: When they came for the Jews, I said nothing, because I was not a Jew. While in no way does this circumstance bear comparison in terms of tragedy and loss, one does see the parallel in that many clubs are not in trouble and are doing nothing, because they are not in trouble.

I don't disagree with some of the core concepts behind the push for 10 or 12. Largely, I think that the theory is that the league of ten will have more of the better players playing more of the better players more often, and therefore they should get better and therefore these teams will be able to do better in Europe. This is not fuzzy thinking - we have a smaller pool that is regularly looted and it largely needs to be concentrated in order to improve. However it is plagued with fuzzy timing. Small team top tiers work best in countries with some of the following characteristics: small in physical size with the clubs close together: a smaller population; there is a reasonable chance of national team players playing in their national league; there is the money to bring in people from abroad; there is genuine support at home for the local clubs fromm both fans and other clubs. Right now, very few of these things apply - our clubs are (rightly in my opinion) scattered throughout the land but sadly, there is a glut of location for the majority in the top division. This is leading to a massive move of talent to Dublin, but also to the top regional clubs dominating their region to the exclusion of the others in the area, which in turn has lead to the departure of players from places like Limerick (to Cork), Athlone (lately to Longford) and Donegal (Derry) for example. Weaker players = less support = smaller income = poorer facilities / incentive to stay = even the weaker players depart. And it gets worse from there. Athlone, which has a good tradition, and had great support is in the doldrums for decades. Similarly Limerick and Finn Harps. We lose out to Cork too, and that doesn't help us.

The consequent tradition of not bothering about your local club is being exported to the major cities thanks to the recent trend of internal immigration: as a result the clubs there will lose out too. In the Irish context - a world where the local is celebrated above the national (CF the localised Olympic celebrations, the success of the club and county structure of the GAA, the fact that the Examiner is considered a national daily, the mistrust of "that shower in the Dail in Dublin") - we need to find an Irish solution to the problem.

The first thing is to identify the problem. While I may bang on about success in Europe, and the grail that is the co-efficient, the truth is that improving the co-efficient will solve no problems. The problem is not European standing, it is Irish standing. We need to focus on making the league a thing of value. While doing well in Europe will do something towards that, we have seen repeatedly that this is not enough. Tallaght is motivated about Rovers, but that predated the Europa Cup run. And having only one club doing well with an enthusiastic fan base is simply not enough - we saw how that castrated the league in the 1980s - the last time Rovers dominated. For the league to succeed with the public, there have to be a lot of clubs doing well attendance wise.

We need to look at one of the core ideas of the Italian thinker Gramsci: what benefits the weaker in society will benefit the stronger. Then there is that hoary old chestnut: a herd is only as fast as it's slowest buffalo. We need to embrace this kind of thinking rather than this attitude that as long as we are OK, then I don't care: the reality should be "but for the grace of god, there go I".

I would suggest that we need to completely rethink football in the country. More specifically we need to do the following things to help develop the league:

1. Single tier for the next five years. The clubs need to be in a more stable position than they currently are, in order to get themselves in order. Look at how quickly Longford collapsed on returning to the First, and look how well Bray and Drogheda have returned by the fortune of staying up in spite of their performance. A couple of years of stability and a guarantee of a few teams coming that people might want to see should benefit them all.

2. Talk to the people. If we have this period of enforced stability, we need to use it to see what people want. A lot of work needs to be put in to explore what the public wants, what the clubs need, what the players think. This should be ongoing over the period of the five years as attitudes might change in the different circumstances. Most importantly, this needs to continue AFTER any recommended changes are made. Clubs need to take a lead in this too.

3. Properly explore the way the following leagues have developed:
Tippiligaen, Norway - no followers 30 years ago as everyone followed English football, has recently had regular bursts of success on European stage, doing pretty well attendance wise
MLS, USA - rising in popularlity in a country where it is fifth favourite team sport, very new league, lost two major teams in 2000 or thereabouts, now stronger than ever before in terms of representation and attendance, v. different approach to running football
Erste Liga, Austria - Country is very similar to Ireland in many ways, in shadow of far more illustrious neighbor, successful past haunts it.
Superliga, Denmark - Country is very similar to Ireland in many ways, completely restructured the league about 20 years ago, with some success, shadow of English football
There are plenty of other leagues that probably bear a lot of exploring too, but these were the ones that came first to mind

4. Junior leagues MUST be involved. At the moment, the junior clubs generally despise their senior counterparts, largely as they see them as rivals for the big English monies. Both the league clubs and the junior clubs as fools - the English millionaires are paying pittances for kids compared to what they will throw them off for. Alan Bennett went for maybe a quarter of a million. Before he'd played a game in England, Staunton capped him - he hadn't improved THAT much. What current internationals are available in England for under 4 or 5 million? The local clubs must make proper connections with the local leagues - getting promoted to your League of Ireland club needs to be seen as a vital step for any junior player on the road to the target of a professional contract somewhere foreign. I would also suggest that local and regional coaches be situated in the local league club where possible, with certain evenings of the week where they are available to the various local leagues to train the Oscar Traynor team, or exceptional prospects. Something realy needs to be done about the registration issue too.

5. Genuinely explore the case for Franchises. I think we all have ideas about what we think franchised football is. MK Dons is one example that comes to mind, Galway being promoted on the back of a DVD is another. Those are two of the least palateable ways that these things could go. I look a lot a the MLS - which is far from perfect - but clubs don't get shifted around. Indeed, the league is helping to develop those clubs in some ways, and keeping a close look at certain of their off-the-field activities - the easy to spot example is a standardisation of their websites, and easy linking between them. I am not saying that we should go down this road, but in unfranchised football we currently have 7 of 11 top tier clubs within 30 minutes of the M50, and Dundalk not much further again - that's not great either.

6. International Knowhow. One of the more interesting things in the book Soccernomics, is the discussion of the networks of European football. The more successful nations were the ones that were more connected to the major networks shooting out from Germany, the Netherlands and Italy. This is why divided and small Belgium used to do so well, caught right in the middle. We are generally very isolated. We connect with Britain, chiefly England, and none other. We need to be harnessing some of the European knowhow. We need to bring in the coaches from the Netherlands or whereever, on a long term basis. We need to explore routes OTHER than the British ones. Some guy in the Indo made an interesting point - Trap's footballing style with the national team is dull and unexciting, but the Irish are filled with divilment - that should be considered. Trap doesn't know the Irish people, he knows English style football, and he plays accordingly to that expectation. We need to stop comparing all our football to the British or English style (which these days still exists in League 1 and lower, or Scotland, tbh), and figure out what we would like to see.
Similarly, off the field, we need to explore the other ways clubs are run abroad. For example, Barca are a multiple sports club, with volleyball, basketball and other programmes - why not us too, and boost our basketball or volleyball or athletics programmes in the country, the league clubs are well placed for doing this, there may even be grants available. We need to explore how clubs are run as a business in the US (where it is nearly a science), how they relate to their communities, and their schools. We are lucky in this at Waterford in that we have plucked ourselves an expert from Britain for the commercial side, and we have developed a lot with WIT. But I would guess there is still more we can do (PADDY'S DAY FLOAT!) and that is probably true for other league clubs.

7. Marquee Players. We have seen the effect of a high calibre player like Joe N'Do and how he has lifted whatever club he is at. Similarly so with Charles Livingston Mbabzi, or Joe Gamble, or a few of the bigger money or international players who have come over to the league. In the past, the Blues did this with Bobby Charlton Bobby Tambling, Peter Thomas, Jose Quitongo, etc. It gives a boost to the club, and to the league. They might not be amazing all the time but it lifts all. Irish Cricket has done this too, with one of the Cronjie's being signed up for a few years. Not only does it give a lift, but it also passes on the knowledge the player has and connects to those networks I mention above. It has really built up the MLS. I would suggest that some of the money should be made available for each club to be exclusively used to hire or pay the difference in wage to a Marquee Player who is entitled to a greater wage than he might otherwise get. If all the clubs had one, be it former international, incredibly hot prospect, someone from a different world of football, unique flair player, whatever, it could lift the lot. These players would obviously have to be full time, with other responibilities than playing - call it the tennis style club professional if you like, but someone that the whole local community should recognise. Hopefully, some of these guys might stay in their communities, and become local coaches with a different perspective on football.

8. Promotion of the League. The league is very much second place to the International team in the FAI's understanding of things. Which is right and makes sense given the response of the Irish public. But that is a response fed by years of nothing on the TV, in the papers, or on billboards about the league, and loads on the Premiership. We cannot stop the BBC or sky airing in Ireland, but we could do something about MNS being on a Monday late night slot for an hour, and the Premiership being primetime weekend viewing. The FAI must surely have some say in this. Even if they don't there is a hell of a lot more that could be done to promote the league than currently is, especially during the International games, when there could be some reference to it. Again, we should see what they did in Norway - their league was a joke in the 80s, now it is well considered, while people still follow the English game.

9. The FAI must be not be above criticism. Look at every guise of Russia - repression of criticism has not helpe it economically, be it Tsars, Stalin or Putin. Lack of criticism means less need for problem solving / appeasing the public means a stagnancy of development. I actually believe that the guys at the top really do want the best for the league, but insulation from the fans and from criticism will not help them. I don't mean that they have to take every criticism on board, but they could do better than repressing all comment.

I'm sure that not all the above alone are the road map to development, but I do think that most of them, particularly the first, will greatly assist in the positioning of the league - and the FAI - on the road to exploring a better future for the league. I have to say that I am very proud to be a Blue in light of the club putting its balls on the line to improve the future of the league - time for the rest to step up to match this.

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Picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.....

Posted By: The U
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2012 at 12:58am

gazelle. wrote:

UCD AFC wrote:

why would small teams in Prem want it either? sham rvs coming to town twice or rvs once and SD Galway?

Would you feel the same way if UCD get relegated this year I wonder?

Gammy teams like Salthill and Mervue couldn't be included. AFAIK they are dropping out at the end of this year anyway.

Not giving my opinion, just pointing out not only big clubs would be against it

gazelle. wrote:

The survival of these clubs could depend on a single division as Waterfords chairman has already stated.

Better chance than UCD of doing what exactly? The only point I can see you're making is they'd be better than UCD if they had more money? which is ridiculous if that's what you're getting at

Posted By: corkery
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2012 at 1:20am

UCD AFC wrote:

gazelle. wrote:

UCD AFC wrote:

why would small teams in Prem want it either? sham rvs coming to town twice or rvs once and SD Galway?

Would you feel the same way if UCD get relegated this year I wonder?

Gammy teams like Salthill and Mervue couldn't be included. AFAIK they are dropping out at the end of this year anyway.

Not giving my opinion, just pointing out not only big clubs would be against it

gazelle. wrote:

The survival of these clubs could depend on a single division as Waterfords chairman has already stated.

Better chance than UCD of doing what exactly?

Getting a fanbase.

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'The younger generation as in 17 -25 are certainly gayer than their predecessors. I think they may cause the extinction of the human race with their activities.'- Baldrick

Posted By: TBWRA
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2012 at 1:46am

UCD are the real model produce players year after year educate players have good training facilites and never over spend they are the best asset the league has

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Posted By: Landon Donovan
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2012 at 2:02am

TBWRA wrote:

UCD are the real model produce players year after year educate players have good training facilites and never over spend they are the best asset the league has

Clap

Bray as well for the amount of young players they bring through.

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Posted By: roverstillidie
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2012 at 8:56am

Waterford can ask my rope. Tried and failed 7 years on the spin to get promoted out of a dire league, now they are trying the boardroom threats approach. Call their bluff John.

A 16 team PD was a disaster before and will be a disaster again. No relegation leads to total stagnation with 12 of the teams knowing they can hang on in there year after year while the top 4 fight it out for Europe. Imagine a league where 75% of games are meaningless with lower crowds. How on earth is that the way forward?

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He is Karl Pilkington in the LOI section and Karl Marx outwith it

Posted By: gazelle.
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2012 at 12:32pm

corkery wrote:

UCD AFC wrote:

Better chance than UCD of doing what exactly?

Getting a fanbase.

This.

roverstillidie wrote:

Waterford can ask my rope. Tried and failed 7 years on the spin to get promoted out of a dire league, now they are trying the boardroom threats approach. Call their bluff John.

Are you saying you don't believe that Wayerford cannot survive another year in a 7 team first division? I don't think there is much clubs in the league who could survive in a 7 team first division. Especially when two of those clubs are Salthill and Mervue.

roverstillidie wrote:

The single tiered division would only be temporary imo. Have it for about 5 years or so. Small teams like Athlone, Waterford, Finn Harps, Limerick and Longford can use this time to build up/get back a fanbase and raise some decent revenue.

The meaningless games problem can be sorted out by having the teams that finish 3rd-6th, inclusive, play off- for the final european spot. This would give the top 9 or 10 clubs something to play for and the rest a chance to boost the coffers.

Posted By: saintjoey
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2012 at 12:35pm

one team league is a no go, how ya can give someone in the bottom half a euruopean place and someone who finishes 4th nothing? if that happened attendances would be a record low by september

Posted By: deiseblue
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2012 at 12:52pm

As a Blues fan I am naturally worried about the future survival of the club & totally agree with the club's assertion that given the putative set up of next year's 1st Division they may not survive.

The FAI have a duty to all clubs in both divisions & perhaps the time has come to consider the pros & cons of a 1 tier league in an effort to ensure that the demise of clubs such as Galway United , Cobh RamblerS , Cork City ( the original club ) & Monaghan United comes to an end.

I note that Shamrock Rovers are opposed to a 1 tier league & as they are currently placed 4th in the league & are the 2nd placed team in the Capital after Pats their voice carries considerable weight ,teams such as Rovers should however reflect on their own past difficulties - after all they were effectively homeless for 22 years & only continued to exist due to the willingness of other teams to sublet their grounds to them & of course it was only the forbearance of the FAI that enabled them to continue after they fraudulently lodged accounts from 2003 in 2005 in order to acquire the required license.

I say this not to denigrate Rovers who are a credit to the League & who in recent years have signposted the way forward but to show that even the most successful clubs ( currently ) have required assistance from the FAI & other clubs in the past .

Hopefully , John Delaney with his & his father's long attachment to the Blues will together with the other governing members of the FAI in conjunction with all League clubs will give due consideration to protecting the league & all it's clubs into the future.

Posted By: gazelle.
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2012 at 12:54pm

saintjoey wrote:

one team league is a no go, how ya can give someone in the bottom half a euruopean place and someone who finishes 4th nothing? if that happened attendances would be a record low by september

Who said anything about giving bottom half clubs a euro spot? The bottom half of an 18 team league is 9th and lower. The play offs would be 3rd through to 6th.

Play offs aren't neccessarily fair, but they are interesting and they draw crowds. Just look at the english football league.

Posted By: roverstillidie
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2012 at 12:58pm

gazelle. wrote:

I'm saying a single division with no relegation is not the solution. Yes there are major issues with the 1st, but importing them into the PD won't solve them.

gazelle. wrote:

The single tiered division would only be temporary imo. Have it for about 5 years or so. Small teams like Athlone, Waterford, Finn Harps, Limerick and Longford can use this time to build up/get back a fanbase and raise some decent revenue.

In other words get Rovers, Pats, Cork and Sligo to subsidise them? Hmmmm.

These clubs are in the 1st division for a reason. What have they done to deserve a place at the top table?

gazelle. wrote:

Or keep relegation, fix the first division and stop tinkering.... What will happen is the likes of Mervue (no offence) will be happy to get whapped 7/8 nil half the time, finish bottom, stay in the league and use the money to do up their clubhouse. Its what happened last time there was no relegation.

Long and short of it this 'fix' will suit the small provincial clubs to the direct detriment of the established, bigger clubs. Why should Rovers lose games v Bohs, Pats and Sligo to play Mervue, Wexford and Salthill? You will have to do a lot harder than 'because they are rubbish and need a hand'. With respect, Waterford failing to get promoted 7 years on the spin is not Rovers problem and nor should it become it.

Having a league with dead rubber games, hidings being dished out from the full timers to the amateurs every week suits no-one except the amateur sides who get bigger away gates. These clubs aren't important enough to structure the league round. It's harsh, but its life.

There is an argument to be made for stabalising the league, but to me this idea has too many negatives.

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He is Karl Pilkington in the LOI section and Karl Marx outwith it

Posted By: saintjoey
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2012 at 4:08pm

gazelle. wrote:

Who said anything about giving bottom half clubs a euro spot? The bottom half of an 18 team league is 9th and lower. The play offs would be 3rd through to 6th.

Play offs aren't neccessarily fair, but they are interesting and they draw crowds. Just look at the english football league.

sorry read that wrong, ya would still have 8 clubs with nothing to play for every season there crowds would slip to nothing imo and i include the big clubs in that if we managed to have such a bad season dropping to 14th in the league by september id say even the derby games would only have 1,000 at it.

id love an 18/20 team premier league with 3 teams going down, keeping the whole league competitive with your play off idea but its never going to happen here.

Posted By: Cabra Hoop
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2012 at 4:26pm

I see A. Ineista is sponsoring his home town club Albacete who are in financial trouble....... the gauntlet is handed over to Messrs. O'Shea and Hunt to spare a few crumbs from the rich mans table.....

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" BFC always gives me a laugh........ "

Posted By: GoneToShowgies
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2012 at 5:46pm

One things for sure. JD wont be happy that his home town club and the team he supports is standing up to the FAI. Interesting to see how that side of things pans out.

tbh Im not sure a 16 or 18 team league is a good idea. Not that I wouldnt want one, far from it, but if they are going to change it, it needs to be from the top down and not for almost the sake of it and to just kick the can down the road and change it back in a few years. Clubs and fans cant agree and are confused becuase there simply hasnt been a definitive plan laid out by the FAI.

Call me cynical but if Waterford were in a guarenteed promotion spot this season I have me doubts they would be going down this road. Make no bones about it, every club is out for themselves and the FAI is out for itself.

A few things on a expanded league:

- Seeing clubs geting hammered in a 1 team league will ruin it and make it a jokeshop (we hammered Galway 8-nil in Terryland last season. Dont get me wrong I cheered every goal and its great to get one over on them Crusties. But at the same time it didnt feel right)

- No relegation for a few season just cant happen imo. Half a dozen teams will cut their budget to zip cause they have nothing to play for. Which will mean even bigger hammerings from full time teams.

- This argument of 'we will get bigger gates' against the big teams. FFS it wil be a few gates per season, not exactly the gravy train people think or hope imo.

Posted By: Jerryfromkerry
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2012 at 7:11pm

An All Ireland league is the solution

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Posted By: domo32GUST
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2012 at 11:07pm

gazelle. wrote:

Jason Kelly wrote:

Beat me too it

Those 2 Galway clubs are a joke alright, get rid of them and bring back Ramblers.

One tier league should be the way to go.

Would love to see Queenstown back. I think GUST are applying for a licence too.

Defiantly need a one tiered league for the next few years. It would hugely benefit the small clubs to have the likes of Sligo, Rovers and Cork visiting.

Big clubs won't want it though. Shamrock Rovers want a 10 team premier again ffs. Every time it's tried it gets changed back again. Playing the same team four times a year is a joke.

Your correct,GUST will be applying for a licence next season

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www.maroonarmy.boards.net 'One City, One County, One Club'

Posted By: gazelle.
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2012 at 11:24pm

domo32GUST wrote:

gazelle. wrote:

Jason Kelly wrote:

Beat me too it Those 2 Galway clubs are a joke alright, get rid of them and bring back Ramblers. One tier league should be the way to go.

Would love to see Queenstown back. I think GUST are applying for a licence too. Defiantly need a one tiered league for the next few years. It would hugely benefit the small clubs to have the likes of Sligo, Rovers and Cork visiting.Big clubs won't want it though. Shamrock Rovers want a 10 team premier again ffs. Every time it's tried it gets changed back again. Playing the same team four times a year is a joke.

Your correct,GUST will be applying for a licence next season

Good luck to ye. Would love to see Galway Utd back in the league. Hopefully Mervue and salthill will drop out too.

Posted By: Sham157
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 6:50am

Jerryfromkerry wrote:

An All Ireland league is the solution

No it's not

Posted By: planning
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 9:22am

gazelle. wrote:

Would love to see Galway Utd back in the league. Hopefully Mervue and salthill will drop out too.

Mervue and Salthill are where they are by right. Waterford are also where they are by right.

If you want to be in the top division, you have to show that you can meet the standard on the pitch. For the past 5 years, Waterford haven't met that standard, and until they do when the regular season is completed, they're not entitled to play with the big teams.

I totally reject out of hand the idea of league playoffs for anything. It's supposed to be a league. If after 8 months, you've achieved your targets, congratulations. If you haven't, you can try again next year. If you go bust, you go bust. There were many before you, and there will be many more after you. Football is a dog-eat-dog sport. It's not GAA you're playing.

Posted By: Clonbhoy
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 12:15pm

deise316 wrote:

Lifted this lengthy post from BTID, courtesy of the poster ' Bluebeard' there.

A lot of valid points, and a few concrete suggestions to go with them;

A single tier for five years to get clubs to get their house in order is just lunacy. What difference does the size of the league have? How will a dozen teams with nothing to play for in a 18/20 team league help anyone. I cannot see the logic in this.

2. Talk to the people. If we have this period of enforced stability, we need to use it to see what people want. A lot of work needs to be put in to explore what the public wants, what the clubs need, what the players think. This should be ongoing over the period of the five years as attitudes might change in the different circumstances. Most importantly, this needs to continue AFTER any recommended changes are made. Clubs need to take a lead in this too.

This would be great.It is obvious but little has been done in this regard. Mooney was great at it but he has now left.

3. Properly explore the way the following leagues have developed:
Tippiligaen, Norway - no followers 30 years ago as everyone followed English football, has recently had regular bursts of success on European stage, doing pretty well attendance wise
MLS, USA - rising in popularlity in a country where it is fifth favourite team sport, very new league, lost two major teams in 2000 or thereabouts, now stronger than ever before in terms of representation and attendance, v. different approach to running football
Erste Liga, Austria - Country is very similar to Ireland in many ways, in shadow of far more illustrious neighbor, successful past haunts it.
Superliga, Denmark - Country is very similar to Ireland in many ways, completely restructured the league about 20 years ago, with some success, shadow of English football
There are plenty of other leagues that probably bear a lot of exploring too, but these were the ones that came first to mind
Agreed
4. Junior leagues MUST be involved. At the moment, the junior clubs generally despise their senior counterparts, largely as they see them as rivals for the big English monies. Both the league clubs and the junior clubs as fools - the English millionaires are paying pittances for kids compared to what they will throw them off for. Alan Bennett went for maybe a quarter of a million. Before he'd played a game in England, Staunton capped him - he hadn't improved THAT much. What current internationals are available in England for under 4 or 5 million? The local clubs must make proper connections with the local leagues - getting promoted to your League of Ireland club needs to be seen as a vital step for any junior player on the road to the target of a professional contract somewhere foreign. I would also suggest that local and regional coaches be situated in the local league club where possible, with certain evenings of the week where they are available to the various local leagues to train the Oscar Traynor team, or exceptional prospects. Something realy needs to be done about the registration issue too.

Agreed. clubs haven't helped in this, constantly treating these clubs with disdain when trying to take their players from them for a pittance and then complaining when foreign teams do the same. I also believe a national pyramid will aid in seeing the progression of moving up. In Scotland the pyramid structure(which still badly needs an on the pitch promotion and relegation system between league and non league) gives players a clear benchmark as to where they want to play. They have a thriving junior system and while their league system needa a lot of adjusting, it is still light years away from ours.

5. Genuinely explore the case for Franchises. I think we all have ideas about what we think franchised football is. MK Dons is one example that comes to mind, Galway being promoted on the back of a DVD is another. Those are two of the least palateable ways that these things could go. I look a lot a the MLS - which is far from perfect - but clubs don't get shifted around. Indeed, the league is helping to develop those clubs in some ways, and keeping a close look at certain of their off-the-field activities - the easy to spot example is a standardisation of their websites, and easy linking between them. I am not saying that we should go down this road, but in unfranchised football we currently have 7 of 11 top tier clubs within 30 minutes of the M50, and Dundalk not much further again - that's not great either.
It has been tried too, Sporting Fingal? Kildare county? Franchising isn't going to solve the problem of a centralised league. Strong teams in cork,Sligo, Galway, Waterford, Derry, Athlone and Limerick would be great for the league. We need to solve it. Making new teams out of thin air won't help. where would you even locate them? All the towns capable of having a LOI team have one, or are we suggesting we get rid of well run teams to suit this idea because of badly run ones?
6. International Knowhow. One of the more interesting things in the book Soccernomics, is the discussion of the networks of European football. The more successful nations were the ones that were more connected to the major networks shooting out from Germany, the Netherlands and Italy. This is why divided and small Belgium used to do so well, caught right in the middle. We are generally very isolated. We connect with Britain, chiefly England, and none other. We need to be harnessing some of the European knowhow. We need to bring in the coaches from the Netherlands or whereever, on a long term basis. We need to explore routes OTHER than the British ones. Some guy in the Indo made an interesting point - Trap's footballing style with the national team is dull and unexciting, but the Irish are filled with divilment - that should be considered. Trap doesn't know the Irish people, he knows English style football, and he plays accordingly to that expectation. We need to stop comparing all our football to the British or English style (which these days still exists in League 1 and lower, or Scotland, tbh), and figure out what we would like to see. Bingo!! We need to remove the merry-go-round that sees the same managers(and players) swapping jobs. We need fresh ideas and players developing through a different approach and with the view to them playing in a different culture
Similarly, off the field, we need to explore the other ways clubs are run abroad. For example, Barca are a multiple sports club, with volleyball, basketball and other programmes - why not us too, and boost our basketball or volleyball or athletics programmes in the country, the league clubs are well placed for doing this, there may even be grants available. We need to explore how clubs are run as a business in the US (where it is nearly a science), how they relate to their communities, and their schools. We are lucky in this at Waterford in that we have plucked ourselves an expert from Britain for the commercial side, and we have developed a lot with WIT. But I would guess there is still more we can do (PADDY'S DAY FLOAT!) and that is probably true for other league clubs.
Is there not some link now between UL and Limerick and ucd? This is a good start. Didn't Shams have a link with a basketball team? I think exploring the links between local ITs and colleges are a great idea, sports that are truly minority in Ireland linking themselves to a league that is minority isn't going to help.
7. Marquee Players. We have seen the effect of a high calibre player like Joe N'Do and how he has lifted whatever club he is at. Similarly so with Charles Livingston Mbabzi, or Joe Gamble, or a few of the bigger money or international players who have come over to the league. In the past, the Blues did this with Bobby Charlton Bobby Tambling, Peter Thomas, Jose Quitongo, etc. It gives a boost to the club, and to the league. They might not be amazing all the time but it lifts all. Irish Cricket has done this too, with one of the Cronjie's being signed up for a few years. Not only does it give a lift, but it also passes on the knowledge the player has and connects to those networks I mention above. It has really built up the MLS. I would suggest that some of the money should be made available for each club to be exclusively used to hire or pay the difference in wage to a Marquee Player who is entitled to a greater wage than he might otherwise get. If all the clubs had one, be it former international, incredibly hot prospect, someone from a different world of football, unique flair player, whatever, it could lift the lot. These players would obviously have to be full time, with other responibilities than playing - call it the tennis style club professional if you like, but someone that the whole local community should recognise. Hopefully, some of these guys might stay in their communities, and become local coaches with a different perspective on football.Bringing in younger, ambitious players who want to make a name for themselves is great-see Ryan Guy. Bringing in over the hill stars who are looking for a last few quid-see carlton Palmer. I hope he meant the former

8. Promotion of the League. The league is very much second place to the International team in the FAI's understanding of things. Which is right and makes sense given the response of the Irish public. But that is a response fed by years of nothing on the TV, in the papers, or on billboards about the league, and loads on the Premiership. We cannot stop the BBC or sky airing in Ireland, but we could do something about MNS being on a Monday late night slot for an hour, and the Premiership being primetime weekend viewing. The FAI must surely have some say in this. Even if they don't there is a hell of a lot more that could be done to promote the league than currently is, especially during the International games, when there could be some reference to it. Again, we should see what they did in Norway - their league was a joke in the 80s, now it is well considered, while people still follow the English game.

9. The FAI must be not be above criticism. Look at every guise of Russia - repression of criticism has not helpe it economically, be it Tsars, Stalin or Putin. Lack of criticism means less need for problem solving / appeasing the public means a stagnancy of development. I actually believe that the guys at the top really do want the best for the league, but insulation from the fans and from criticism will not help them. I don't mean that they have to take every criticism on board, but they could do better than repressing all comment.

I'm sure that not all the above alone are the road map to development, but I do think that most of them, particularly the first, will greatly assist in the positioning of the league - and the FAI - on the road to exploring a better future for the league. I have to say that I am very proud to be a Blue in light of the club putting its balls on the line to improve the future of the league - time for the rest to step up to match this.

The FAI needs reform, not the ability to take criticism. The league obviously needs reform and I don't really see how Waterford pulling out of next years first division will help anyone. There has to be a second tier, there has to be promotion and relegation. Regionalising the second tier is probably the best solution but if Waterford want to suggest something else then do so and get agreeable clubs to join forces with you. A seven team league is farcical but teams pulling out because of it is even worse and you can't help thinking it is because you haven't been good enough to get out

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A man can have no greater love than give 90 minutes to his friends. @withgodlygrace

Posted By: Dukla
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 12:47pm

Jerryfromkerry wrote:

An All Ireland league is the solution

IFA would never be in favor of it.

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Posted By: domo32GUST
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 12:54pm

gazelle. wrote:

domo32GUST wrote:

gazelle. wrote:

Jason Kelly wrote:

Beat me too it Those 2 Galway clubs are a joke alright, get rid of them and bring back Ramblers. One tier league should be the way to go.

Your correct,GUST will be applying for a licence next season

Good luck to ye. Would love to see Galway Utd back in the league. Hopefully Mervue and salthill will drop out too.

thanks for that gazelle, the process starts this Saturday 1st September when our U19's play their first league game v Mervue Utd at 7:30PM in Eamon Deacy Park

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www.maroonarmy.boards.net 'One City, One County, One Club'

Posted By: Wheelo
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 1:28pm

Dukla wrote:

Jerryfromkerry wrote:

An All Ireland league is the solution

IFA would never be in favor of it.

Never mind the IFA, but the majority of supporters up there don’t want it (and wouldn’t support it either)

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"Not surprised you are anti foreigner in your so called Kip of a town when you don’t want a manager because he is Swedish and you want big Sam in charge" - a fine post from a fine ybig poster

Posted By: corkery
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 1:36pm

Wheelo wrote:

Dukla wrote:

Jerryfromkerry wrote:

An All Ireland league is the solution

IFA would never be in favor of it.

Never mind the IFA, but the majority of supporters up there don’t want it (and wouldn’t support it either)

Why could a Cliftonville fan give up European spots to go to Waterford on a Tuesday night.

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'The younger generation as in 17 -25 are certainly gayer than their predecessors. I think they may cause the extinction of the human race with their activities.'- Baldrick

Posted By: deiseblue
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 5:36pm

planning wrote:

gazelle. wrote:

Would love to see Galway Utd back in the league. Hopefully Mervue and salthill will drop out too.

Mervue and Salthill are where they are by right. Waterford are also where they are by right.

If
you want to be in the top division, you have to show that you can meet
the standard on the pitch. For the past 5 years, Waterford haven't met
that standard, and until they do when the regular season is completed,
they're not entitled to play with the big teams.

I totally
reject out of hand the idea of league playoffs for anything. It's
supposed to be a league. If after 8 months, you've achieved your
targets, congratulations. If you haven't, you can try again next year.
If you go bust, you go bust. There were many before you, and there will
be many more after you. Football is a dog-eat-dog sport. It's not GAA
you're playing.

It should also be pointed out that Rovers effectively went bust when they frauduently submitted 2003 accounts for the 2005 season in an effort to gain the required license , it actually got to the stage where they were pursued by a laundrette as they refused to pay their laundry bill.

It should also be pointed out that Rovers were effectively homeless for 22 years & it was only through the good will of other LOI clubs ( including Bohs ) that Rovers survived.

I do appreciate that Rovers as currently the 4th placed team in the country & the second highest placed in Dublin after Pats do have a major say in how the League should be run but they should also remember their own chequered financial & ground sharing history before taking the moral high ground.

Posted By: planning
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 5:58pm

In 2005, Rovers kept Waterford up, courtesy of receiving an 8-point penalty for the above. The following year, Shels kept Waterford up, by having their licence overturned. In 2007, Waterford could have stayed up via the playoff system, lost it, and haven't been back since.

We live in 2012 now, and there are no free passes to the top division anymore. Rovers and Shels are back up. Waterford are welcome to play Rovers, Shels and everyone else on a weekly basis when they meet the required standard on the pitch.

Posted By: deiseblue
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 6:12pm

planning wrote:

In 2005, Rovers kept Waterford up, courtesy of receiving an 8-point penalty for the above. The following year, Shels kept Waterford up, by having their licence overturned. In 2007, Waterford could have stayed up via the playoff system, lost it, and haven't been back since.

We live in 2012 now, and there are no free passes to the top division anymore. Rovers and Shels are back up. Waterford are welcome to play Rovers, Shels and everyone else on a weekly basis when they meet the required standard on the pitch.

Of course you are right - we are where are .

However , if the argument is that if you go bust then you go bust then Rovers & Shels should have summarily been thrown out of the league years ago - not an argument that I agree with as I hate to see clubs go under .

Waterford are arguing that if they are condemned to spending next season in the 1st division then financially they may not be able to continue & as such are arguing that a 1 tier league maybe the way forward - a point worth considering perhaps - it should be pointed out that unlike Rovers & Shels the Blues have not flagrantly abused FAI rules & as such their argument should carry some weight & hopefully John Delaney will rember his roots !

Posted By: planning
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 6:31pm

A club goes "bust" when it goes under. Neither Rovers nor Shels went bust, but faced the consequences of failure on the pitch and mismanagement off it. They sorted themselves out and are back in the top division, as are Cork and Derry. Waterford have to do the same. If it takes 5 years or 50 years for them to do it, so be it.

I would rather expand the first division to 12/14 clubs and let them play home and away once, with an extended mid-season break. The clubs who make up the expansion are introduced to the league at low-cost, while the others who were there before, only have to travel to far-flung places once a year. The top flight clubs have to play during the summer because of Europe. The lower division clubs don't have to.

Posted By: deiseblue
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 6:53pm

planning wrote:

A club goes "bust" when it goes under. Neither Rovers nor Shels went bust, but faced the consequences of failure on the pitch and mismanagement off it. They sorted themselves out and are back in the top division, as are Cork and Derry. Waterford have to do the same. If it takes 5 years or 50 years for them to do it, so be it.

I would rather expand the first division to 12/14 clubs and let them play home and away once, with an extended mid-season break. The clubs who make up the expansion are introduced to the league at low-cost, while the others who were there before, only have to travel to far-flung places once a year. The top flight clubs have to play during the summer because of Europe. The lower division clubs don't have to.

I really wish I could agree with you as I think that at the time it would have been a huge mistake if Rovers had been ejected from the League.

The facts are however different - Rovers frauduently submitted 2003 accounts for season 2005 & as such should have been summarily thrown out - however common sense prevailed & they were given time to sort themselves out - which to their immense credit they did.

Waterford's argument at the very least deserves the same consideration in their attempt to survive , particularly as they never ( as I have already pointed out ) so flagrantly breached FAi regulations as did the Hoops & Shels

Posted By: planning
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 8:00pm

Rovers couldn't have been thrown out of the 2005 season, as it had already started by the time the result of it was applied. Instead the club lost it's licence, were deducted 8 points, and Waterford stayed up.

Posted By: Shoco
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 8:14pm

planning wrote:

In 2005, Rovers kept Waterford up, courtesy of receiving an 8-point penalty for the above. The following year, Shels kept Waterford up, by having their licence overturned. In 2007, Waterford could have stayed up via the playoff system, lost it, and haven't been back since.

We live in 2012 now, and there are no free passes to the top division anymore. Rovers and Shels are back up. Waterford are welcome to play Rovers, Shels and everyone else on a weekly basis when they meet the required standard on the pitch.

eh no, the fai kept waterford up in 2006 by not relegating them despite them losing the relegation/promotion play off, galway would have benifited from shelbournes demotion but that whole story is for a different thread

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YOUR 3 IN A ROW LEAGUE CHAMPIONS

Posted By: deiseblue
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 10:40pm

planning wrote:

Rovers couldn't have been thrown out of the 2005 season, as it had already started by the time the result of it was applied. Instead the club lost it's licence, were deducted 8 points, and Waterford stayed up.

Of course they could have been thrown out - it would have caused huge disruption but the league would have continued as it did when Mons packed up mid season.

Rovers of all clubs must surely realise that their continued existence is due to the forbearance of the FAI & the good will of other Dublin clubs including their avowed foes - the Boheeez who made their grounds available to the Hoops during their 22 homeless years to ensure their future as a club.

The moral high ground is not a fit place for Rovers to occupy in this argument , given their recent history their attitude should surely be - there but for the grace of God go I.

Posted By: roverstillidie
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 10:42pm

deiseblue wrote:

It should also be pointed out that Rovers effectively went bust when they frauduently submitted 2003 accounts for the 2005 season in an effort to gain the required license , it actually got to the stage where they were pursued by a laundrette as they refused to pay their laundry bill.

Rovers didn't go bust, effectively or really. We took our medicine, sorted it out and are now the best supported club side on the island. Should we apoligise for this?

deiseblue wrote:

It should also be pointed out that Rovers were effectively homeless for 22 years & it was only through the good will of other LOI clubs ( including Bohs ) that Rovers survived.

But we never, ever, tried to blackmail the FAI into changing the league structure due to our failure to get a permanent home in those 22 years. Bohs let us play in Dalyer because they needed the money, not out of sporting ecumenism.

You are inferring the stance you think Rovers are taking is done to spite you. Oh dear.

deiseblue wrote:

I do appreciate that Rovers as currently the 4th placed team in the country & the second highest placed in Dublin after Pats do have a major say in how the League should be run but they should also remember their own chequered financial & ground sharing history before taking the moral high ground.

There is no moral high ground. One newspaper article SPECULATED Rovers would be opposed to importing the first division problems into the Premier.

It is exceptionally unfair, and if I might suggest a tactical blunder, to turn this into a Rovers (or whoever) versus the rest dispute. You have a version for Irish football that suits your club. Rovers, it is reported as gossip, have another. Spare me the drama in claiming that Rovers following their interests is somehow malicious when you are doing the same. Quite frankly, your failure to get promoted 6 years on the spin is not the rest of ours problem

There are legitimate arguments for and against what you are proposing. But there is a stench of using the boardroom to do what you failed time and time again to achieve on the pitch, despite having essentially the same help as Rovers in terms of a good, municipal facility.

If you turn this into the pissy fight your club seem to be gearing up to turn it into, then the rest will close ranks.

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He is Karl Pilkington in the LOI section and Karl Marx outwith it

Posted By: roverstillidie
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 10:45pm

deiseblue wrote:

Of course they could have been thrown out - it would have caused huge disruption but the league would have continued as it did when Mons packed up mid season.

Rovers of all clubs must surely realise that their continued existence is due to the forbearance of the FAI & the good will of other Dublin clubs including their avowed foes - the Boheeez who made their grounds available to the Hoops during their 22 homeless years to ensure their future as a club.

The moral high ground is not a fit place for Rovers to occupy in this argument , given their recent history their attitude should surely be - there but for the grace of God go I.

What forbearance from the FAI? Other than backing us up versus the bigots, we got hee haw from them, starting with refusing to buy Milltown a couple of years after buying Dalyer. Spare us.

Grace of God my hole. We are where we are through hard work, learning the hard way, good luck and talented people in the right place at the right time.

This is so petty and pathetic its unreal.

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He is Karl Pilkington in the LOI section and Karl Marx outwith it

Posted By: roverstillidie
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 10:46pm

Shoco wrote:

eh no, the fai kept waterford up in 2006 by not relegating them despite them losing the relegation/promotion play off, galway would have benifited from shelbournes demotion but that whole story is for a different thread

Don't waste your time with facts. The reason Waterford are where they are is because Rovers are out to get them. Or something

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He is Karl Pilkington in the LOI section and Karl Marx outwith it

Posted By: deiseblue
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 7:46am

roverstillidie wrote:

What forbearance from the FAI? Other than backing us up versus the bigots, we got hee haw from them, starting with refusing to buy Milltown a couple of years after buying Dalyer. Spare us.

Grace of God my hole. We are where we are through hard work, learning the hard way, good luck and talented people in the right place at the right time.

This is so petty and pathetic its unreal.

Waterford are , to my mind , correctly pointing out that a 1 tier League May be the way to go - sure it may be in the Blues best interests to do so but that does not necessarily diminish the argument.

The reason that I particularly referenced Rovers was due to your comment that Waterford could ask your " rope " & I got the distinct impression that Waterford may get a more reasonable response from the FAI than from your " rope " - the forbearance that I referred to shown by the FAI towards Rovers was when Rovers fraudulently lodged 2003 accounts for the 2005 season ( I do apologise for seemingly repeating this point ad nauseam ) - but it's an important point & let's hope the FAI & league clubs show the same sense of forbearance & understanding when it comes to discussing the League set up for next season & thereafter.

I think Waterford have outlined the financial implications for the club vis a vis the putative 1st Division set up next season & as such I think their stance smacks more of realism than blackmail .

Posted By: Wheelo
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 8:22am

I must say, fair play to waterford.

Really wish more clubs would stand up and speak out!

The league is an absolute joke – it has never been so bad in the last 25 years – and it’s just getting worse.

Something drastic has to be done – if things are left as they are its just going to keep getting worse –so anything is worth a try at this stage

A 1 division league for a couple of years is worth a go, nothing to lose by trying! (though I obviously also do see the disadvantages of it too)–with strict conditions for club to get their house in order – or at least to be trying to get their house in order as some will take longer than others– eg no matter what a clubs income is, only 10% of income should be allowed be spent on wages, 30% on ground improvement fund, 30% on youth set ups, etc – not saying those exact figures, but you get the idea (and may be different percentages for clubs on off the pitch stuff, but I’d stick with the same % of income on wages for all clubs – and keep it at a low %).

Do that for 3 years or so, then go back to the 2 division league with hopefully some other junior clubs like tralee or cobh been able to join up! (and have the same strict expenditure restrictions)

Posted By: roverstillidie
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 9:21am

deiseblue wrote:

Waterford are , to my mind , correctly pointing out that a 1 tier League May be the way to go - sure it may be in the Blues best interests to do so but that does not necessarily diminish the argument.

They are doing more than pointing out. They have threatened to leave senior football if it doesn't happen.

There are merits to the proposal, but massive flaws too. And you are dismissing those who think there are flaws as being self interested, whereas your self interest is grand!?!

deiseblue wrote:

The reason that I particularly referenced Rovers was due to your comment that Waterford could ask your " rope " & I got the distinct impression that Waterford may get a more reasonable response from the FAI than from your " rope " - the forbearance that I referred to shown by the FAI towards Rovers was when Rovers fraudulently lodged 2003 accounts for the 2005 season ( I do apologise for seemingly repeating this point ad nauseam )

How was an effective relegation and removal of the board 'forebearance'?

deiseblue wrote:

- but it's an important point & let's hope the FAI & league clubs show the same sense of forbearance & understanding when it comes to discussing the League set up for next season & thereafter.

Lets hope they do what is in the interests of the league and as many clubs as possible, not the vested interests of some smaller clubs who have failed to achieve on the pitch.

deiseblue wrote:

I think Waterford have outlined the financial implications for the club vis a vis the putative 1st Division set up next season & as such I think their stance smacks more of realism than blackmail .

Tough. You think its all champagne and cigars in the PD? A badly run club is a badly run club.

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He is Karl Pilkington in the LOI section and Karl Marx outwith it

Posted By: roverstillidie
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 9:22am

Wheelo, has this not all been done?

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He is Karl Pilkington in the LOI section and Karl Marx outwith it

Posted By: Wheelo
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 9:36am

roverstillidie wrote:

Wheelo, has this not all been done?

You talking about the aul uefa licensing? It’s not the same as to what I’m proposing. And uefa licensing isn’t properly enforced

I don’t care if its ucd turning over 50k a year or rovers turning over 2 million a year – every club should only be allowed spend a very small percentage of their income on wages say.

Even clubs that have a good stadium, or who don’t have any stadium of their own but rent and don’t need any urgent ground improvements – should still have to contribute 30% (or similar) of income into the clubs ‘stadium fund’ which can only be used on ground improvements,etc (or even to help get their own ground) even if none of it is spent til 5 years down the line

And a smililar % into a proper youth set up – and % set aside for promoting the club locally, pr inititatives,etc

Bascially f*** all allowed be spent on players wages – but off the pitch things for the medium/long term future of clubs!

A 1 division league would take the pressure off clubs for a couple of years and to take the above conditions in their stride – then hopefully it will be the new ‘club culture’ and when the league goes back to a 2 division league, clubs will be more stable and used to not been able to spend f*** all of their income on wages to chase the dream! (and hopefully a few more junior clubs like tralee and cobh would be in the league then aswel!)

I genuinely think f*** all of clubs incomes should be allowed be spent on players wages!

It should also be a max of 10euro entrance fee, with under 12s allowed in for nothing. 15e is too much in these tough financial times for people

Posted By: roverstillidie
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 9:58am

Why should a club like Rovers who spend the budgets of most 1st Division clubs on community football already be limited to 10% of turnover on wages?

If Waterford can't compete on 65% of wages in a municipal stadium, they won't be able to on 10%.

That will drive on the field standards back 50 years. But kudos for thinking outside the box. You are right that clubs should spend more on stadia, but you can't make them either.

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He is Karl Pilkington in the LOI section and Karl Marx outwith it

Posted By: deiseblue
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 10:20am

It should be pointed out that the Blues never threatened to leave the League - the board simply pointed out that it may prove financially impossible to sustain the club in the first division given next season's likely line up.

Let's not kid ourselves regarding the forebearance shown to Rovers - they knowingly & fraudulently lodged the wrong accounts in order to gain the appropriate license - for which they could have been ejected from the Leaue.

I happen to think that the FAI took the right course of action in showing clemency as nobody wanted to see a club with Rovers long tradition cast into oblivion.

Equally I think Waterford's proposal that a 1 tier league may be the way forward deserves every consideration & I am heartened to see that most contributors to this thread seem to think that this proposal has merit.

Posted By: roverstillidie
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 10:52am

deiseblue wrote:

It should be pointed out that the Blues never threatened to leave the League - the board simply pointed out that it may prove financially impossible to sustain the club in the first division given next season's likely line up.

And some other clubs equally as validly can point out that losing games against Rovers, Pats and Cork and replacing them with Mervue, Salthill and Wexford will have massive financial impact on them.

deiseblue wrote:

Let's not kid ourselves regarding the forebearance shown to Rovers - they knowingly & fraudulently lodged the wrong accounts in order to gain the appropriate license - for which they could have been ejected from the Leaue.

There were no prescribed punishment. They could have been expelled from the league. So could Derry, Cork and Shels. The FAI don't expell clubs. We didn't get a favour - we got a fair punishment in line with precendent.

deiseblue wrote:

I happen to think that the FAI took the right course of action in showing clemency as nobody wanted to see a club with Rovers long tradition cast into oblivion.

That was never on the table.

deiseblue wrote:

Equally I think Waterford's proposal that a 1 tier league may be the way forward deserves every consideration & I am heartened to see that most contributors to this thread seem to think that this proposal has merit.

And the counter that its a bad proposal has merit. But you are personalising this as big bad Rovers deliberatley bankrupting you for evil reasons. If you don't think you can survive next season of course everyone will try and come to a solution. But if it isn't the one you want, spare us the conspiracy theory.

Have you any justification for your plan beyond 'we are fecked, we want PD gates, tv money and prizemoney and we want it without getting promoted'?

Posted By: Wheelo
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 11:58am

roverstillidie wrote:

You are right that clubs should spend more on stadia, but you can't make them either.

Of course you can. What I’m suggesting is that these are strict financial rules that every club must sign up to to join the 1 division league.

If you over estimated in year 1, your punishment could be that you spend an even lower % on last years figures on wages than other clubs the following year

Why should a club like Rovers who spend the budgets of most 1st Division clubs on community football already be limited to 10% of turnover on wages?

Because no matter how much they’re spending, it is still not enough. Not having nearly enough effect (despite leading the way by a mile compared to the other clubs in the league). Maybe there could be a case that they could spend a bit extra on youth set up instead if approved by the leagues board – but the one thing that should never be allowed any compromise on is clubs % of income spent on wages

It is the same with clubs that don’t need ground improvements – some are lucky to rent top class grounds, others aren’t so lucky and own and have to pay for their own ground improvements- for those that don’t need ground improvements straight away, at least they’ll have built up a fund to do ground improvements when needed down the line (which they will need eventually) or maybe even to contribute to build their own stadium. Clubs been proactive rather than reactive, mad idea ain’t it!

That will drive on the field standards back 50 years

Increase in on the field standards definitely does not mean an increase in league attendances. This has been proved over the years. The standard on the pitch is the worst it has been since 2008 – and is currently only getting worse. The league would only lose a handful of players by having this strict wage constraints (as majority wouldn’t be good enough for lower leagues in England – or would even want to go to non league in England).

Maybe then with the increase in funding towards clubs youth set ups, we would finally see some improvement n the pitch a few years down the line – that would be the idea.

Until clubs, wake up and do something drastic like this – the league will never have a chance of progressing and the same problems are going to keep coming up, but in different decades

Posted By: roverstillidie
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 12:23pm

Hold up. Rovers spend a fortune on youth development. Rovers spend a fortune on community football. Rovers pay a fortune in rent. We still have enough left over to put money away after paying around 54% of our turnover on wages.

Why should we go basically amateur and completely opt out of Europe because smaller clubs need protecting from competition?

65% of turnover for wagesis a good number. 10% is bananas.

Posted By: deiseblue
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 12:33pm

RTID expressed the view that " Waterford can ask my rope " when it comes to a proposed restructuring to a 1 tier League which is a valid point of view from a Rovers fan.

It is not a question of singling out Rovers for approbation but it is a response to the " ask my rope comment " by pointing out that Rovers were a shambles not so long ago & it was only due to the FAI that they were allowed to continue - it is , as I said previously , a credit to Rovers that they have turned matters around & are an example of how a club should be run .

I am simply pointing out that Rovers have been treated more than fairly by the league as indeed have Shels & Derry as all 3 clubs could have been ejected from the league to the detriment of the league & Waterford's proposal to ensure their future deserves every consideration - lets hope John Delaney , the FAI & the league clubs do give restructuring careful consideration.

After all most LOI clubs in the past have encountered financial difficulties & we have seen the demise of every Cork club to date , Dublin City , Galway Utd. , Kildare , Mons etc. - perhaps it is time to change the status quo & fair play to the Blues for raising the matter.

It should be pointed out that Waterford run a tight ship & have never knowingly or frauduently breached guidelines but foresee financial difficulties ensuing from the likely 1st Division line up next season ( if they are in it ) - I would expect that the other clubs in the division foresee similar problems.

Posted By: TBWRA
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 12:50pm

roverstillidie wrote:

Why should we go basically amateur and completely opt out of Europe because smaller clubs need protecting from competition?

65% of turnover for wagesis a good number. 10% is bananas.

Will you get off the stage

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"The Football Grounds of Europe" about Dalymount that :- "You walk down lanes you'd expect to find a backstreet mechanic only to stumble onto a national stadium steeped in tradition and history"

Posted By: Wheelo
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 1:06pm

TBWRA wrote:

Will you get off the stage

I was going to say the exact same.

65% is far far to big,when one considers the state of the league and the clubs in the league (I don’t want to signal out clubs but I am including rovers in that too – its pathetic the support they get, the results of their youth set up, the fact they cant dictate what happens to their ground,etc). All great on loi comparison obviously – but still not good enough. If you are spending fortunes on youth development and community projects at the moment, you are certainly not showing any real benefits to date.

In fact, rtid’s attitude is one of the reasons why the league will never progress – people thinking short term on the pitch.

The whole league and all clubs have to think long term – if money is going to be continuously wasted on players wages, instead of significantly increasing investment in youth, regular pr initiatives, off the pitch infrastructure,etc we may aswel just forget about it and admit the league is never going to progress –but just get worse.

We don’t pay much more than expenses for players – and I’m quite happy with the standard and the entertainment value from our team this season! In fact, our team today is more entertaining than what we played under doolin when our wages budget was into 7 figures!

Posted By: roverstillidie
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 1:15pm

I'm not in the least thinking short term. The opposite.

There are two fundamental problems with the 1 league proposal. One, it allows clubs who have not earned it to have a crack at the big boys, and the weight of resources will crush them - remember Kilkenny in the 1990's, and secondly that teams with no threat of relegation will lose ambition, happy to rake in the money and use it to spend on other aspects of their club. Think Home Farm.

I get the stability argument, but what you are asking Wheelo is that well run clubs who are progressing, and they exist, should be held back to make it easier for badly run clubs to compete. Never going to happen.

Posted By: roverstillidie
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 1:19pm

TBWRA wrote:

Will you get off the stage

What's wrong with you now?

Didn't one of the lads on MNS say last season that Rovers spend on matchday security and stewarding is more than some 1st division clubs entire budget. You know what will happen if you let Mervue into the PD on a pass. The league will split into 4 camps. The full time clubs - Rovers, Sligo and Derry, the alternating between full and part time, Bohs, Pats, Cork, Dundalk, the always part time, UCD, Drogs, Shels and then the amateurs in Wexford, SD, Mervue. The latter will get eaten week in week out by the former two. We could literally have 10 goal wins twice a month.

Wheelo's proposals have merit, but his figures are waaaay off. 10% of turnover on salary?

Posted By: Wheelo
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 1:38pm

roverstillidie wrote:

Wheelo's proposals have merit, but his figures are waaaay off. 10% of turnover on salary?

In fairness, I did say in an earlier post that I wasn’t saying those exact figures. I was throwing them out there to give examples.

But I do think the percentage of income on wages should be very low – much less than half anyway, 30% maybe – but nowhere near half! I do belive something drastic like that has to happen, or it will be the same old same old for the league – same problems cropping up,etc

I don’t agree with the point that it would hold back ‘well run’ clubs who may be seen to be ‘progressing’. It would certainly have an effect on the pitch for the 2 or 3 full time teams on the pitch at first – but I think what I am proposing would seriously progress these clubs further off the pitch –and ultimately (hopefully) after a few years would see the benefits of much improved youth set ups, bigger attendances, bigger sponsorship, more income,etc – and a much better standard on the pitch for all clubs in the league!

(for the record, I do see the disadvantages of a 1 division league – and believe it will be a wasted opportunity when it happens and wont work as those running the league won’t enforce something like I’ve suggested above. We’ll still see the same problems,etc – it’s like been stuck in a time wharp being a loi supporter!!)

Posted By: TBWRA
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2012 at 2:39pm

roverstillidie wrote:

TBWRA wrote:

Will you get off the stage

What's wrong with you now?

Wheelo's proposals have merit, but his figures are waaaay off. 10% of turnover on salary?

The LSL side also went belly up last year as they had no money ,thats keeping it in the community alright

Posted By: UCDFAN
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2012 at 12:39pm

TBWRA wrote:

The LSL side also went belly up last year as they had no money ,thats keeping it in the community alright

Worser than that. shamrock rovers had taken over the name a successful Junior club Tallaght Town in the 1990's.

But there was a serious dislike from a large number board members of the new shamrock rovers in 2005. The LSL club was allowed disintegrate with no playing staff and was relegated from the LSL after the the club didn't fulfill about half a dozen of it's last matches in the season.

A goup of coaches, re-energised the club and they got entry in Leinster junior football and got promotion back up to the LSL (fourth tier) about three years ago coaches wondered outloud whether it it would better to return to Tallaght Town FC as there was no connection Financially, Culturally, Ultra-Amorically from the LoI club. The LSL club competed for another couple of years in LSL, using the dilapidated ground off Kiltipper Road. At the start of last years Winter Season 2011/12 the LSL club tried to get funding, support from the LoI club but none was forthcoming. They decided not to compete in the upcoming season.

Subsequently, including unrelated meetings in Abbotstown board members of the LoI club have made derogatory comments about staff involved with the former LSL club. True Story.

As UCD AFC (LoI) and UCD (LSL) are linked at the head, hip and foot, UCD Fans get double the amount of gossip fans of either League get.

Posted By: roverstillidie
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2012 at 2:24pm

Lads, your concern for Tony McGuire is truly touching.

Posted By: corkery
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2012 at 2:36pm

deiseblue wrote:

& we have seen the demise of every Cork club to date

Albert Rovers and Evergreen United (Cork Celtic) still play in Cork. I know what ya mean though

If Waterford pull out, there'll be a domino effect, there'd have to be, Harps have feck all money and financial planning would show them it's not their while. Should Dundalk go down, they'd fell the same.

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'The younger generation as in 17 -25 are certainly gayer than their predecessors. I think they may cause the extinction of the human race with their activities.'- Baldrick