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"Football Apartheid in Ireland"

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Topic: "Football Apartheid in Ireland"
Posted By: Danny Invincible
Subject: "Football Apartheid in Ireland"
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 1:03pm
"Football Apartheid in Ireland", Misrepresentation and Bogus Moralising:  http://backpagefootball.com/international/%E2%80%9Cfootball-apartheid-in-ireland%E2%80%9D-misrepresentation-and-bogus-moralising/" rel="nofollow - http://backpagefootball.com/international/%E2%80%9Cfootball-apartheid-in-ireland%E2%80%9D-misrepresentation-and-bogus-moralising/

This was a piece I decided to write in response to being accused of supporting the rather ridiculous concept of "football apartheid in Ireland" recently by Gary McAllister of the Amalgamation of Northern Ireland Supporters Clubs. I also try to clarify a few outstanding misunderstandings on the part of NI fans and expose the alleged reasons and logic behind their hysterical protests to be false and hypocritical.

Enjoy. :)



Replies:
Posted By: irishmufc
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 1:19pm
Absolutely fantastic article danny.the very people shouting about football apartheid seem to forget there was a different type of apartheid going on for years

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Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.


Posted By: the_walls
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 1:30pm
Good article alright


Posted By: Del-Piero
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 1:54pm
Very good! Clap excellent points made throughout!

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I don't quite see how you cherish the memory of the dead by killing another million. And, this is not combat, it's an act of lunacy, General Sir.

Personally, I think you're a f**king idiot.


Posted By: FrankosHereNow
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 1:57pm
Read that last night dude. Great article. Big thumbs up from Franko.
 
Thumbs Up


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YBIG Quiz Champion 2016, 2017 & 2018.

As You Were
Three in a row


Posted By: gspain
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 2:15pm
Danny one point Eamon Zayed plays for Libya. 

We've also lost Alex Bruce and Johnny Gorman btw.  Can't remember who poached them though.


Posted By: greengiant
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 2:20pm
Great article!...very interesting and great points made throughout Thumbs Up

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The first two-syllable word I ever learned growing up was discretion." Dunphy on a his childhood


Posted By: Declanus
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 2:21pm
Very well written and referenced. Excelent points made.


Posted By: Danny Invincible
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by gspain gspain wrote:

Danny one point Eamon Zayed plays for Libya.


This is true, but the supposedly-sectarian/all-Catholic FAI were more than happy to facilitate him at under-21 level for us in spite of his Maghrebi heritage.

Quote We've also lost Alex Bruce and Johnny Gorman btw.  Can't remember who poached them though.


LOL Don't worry; gave them a mention: "Who is to say that the FAI ever deemed  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Bruce_%28footballer_born_1984%29" rel="nofollow - Alex Bruce  or  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Gorman" rel="nofollow - Johnny Gorman  surplus to requirements before the IFA entertained them, for example?"


Posted By: TheTard
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 3:39pm
Good Article, especially with reference to the last paragragh... 


Posted By: BriMurt
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 5:07pm
I think the IFA have found themselves between a rock and a hard place. If they or their supporters fire off too much grief about the perceived poaching, they look bitter, which is already happening. They look bitter not because they are protesting but because along with the protests there will be some mustard laden statements along with an overblown sense of entitlement coming in from some quarters. You can get such things in rows like this.

To blame the FAI is ridiculous. They're just availing of the human resources that are there and declaring is a two way street because there must be a desire on the part of the player to declare. An association does not kidnap a player and apply the ludvico technique and I don't think in the case of the FAI that they're stepping in and playing a nationalist card either. A talented northern born player from a nationalist/catholic background would look at their options for success first before any feelings of affiliation and right now the greatest chance of personal success for them lies with the Republic even though they might have a damned time cracking the nut that is the ROI starting XI. They take that and they open a dialogue with the FAI. There is a sectarian/nationalistic element at play but it's very much secondary in this case. It's actually more manifest in the fact that you'll see precious few northern unionists lining out for the ROI rather than lack of catholics lining out for NI.

I can only say to the IFA and it's supporters, "Sorry lads, you'll just have to take the less talented catholic players for now. When MON takes you back to the promised land (4th place?) Maybe you'll see an upturn in declarations. You may be waiting a while."


Posted By: colemanY2K
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 5:23pm
Good article Clap

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"One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class." Orwell, 1942.


Posted By: seanyshuffler
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 5:35pm
Not that I care about what religion someone is but just wondering have we had any protestants playing for us?


Posted By: Danny Invincible
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 6:06pm
Alan Kernaghan was from an Ulster Protestant background, just like Alex Bruce and Adam Barton, as far as I know. I'm sure we've had plenty of others from Protestant backgrounds line out for us over the years, and possibly even in recent squads. The reason we don't really know is because one's religion isn't a matter of public note south of the border in the same way it is north of the border.


Posted By: Declanus
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 6:14pm
Thats true Danny it doesn't make a difference down here or in England and most places.


Posted By: BoboDub
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 6:21pm
Just to be fair it has to be said there was probably an element of apartheid in place when you look at the gap between Alex stevenson's first and second caps for the republic, particularly given how good a player he actually was. Not a major issue in the context of your whole article, it's just I think it should be said given you say in it there was definitely never a policy at the fai.


Posted By: El_nino
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 6:27pm
Great article. Very well written.


Posted By: Danny Invincible
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by BoboDub BoboDub wrote:

Just to be fair it has to be said there was probably an element of apartheid in place when you look at the gap between Alex stevenson's first and second caps for the republic, particularly given how good a player he actually was. Not a major issue in the context of your whole article, it's just I think it should be said given you say in it there was definitely never a policy at the fai.


Just to be sure I'm reading you correctly, are you suggesting the FAI refused to select Stevenson for a period after first capping him because he was a Protestant and that this was indicative of a policy?


Posted By: benchwarmer
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 6:46pm
Have you posted that article up on owc. Would love to see...... oh wait; I couldn't care less. Even when they percieve themselves to be  the victim they somehow manage to sound triumphalistClown

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''I'm a utd fan cause me da was a utd fan''- Irish utd fan


Posted By: Danny Invincible
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 6:55pm
Originally posted by benchwarmer benchwarmer wrote:

Have you posted that article up on owc. Would love to see...... oh wait; I couldn't care less. Even when they percieve themselves to be  the victim they somehow manage to sound triumphalistClown


Haha, unfortunately no. The mods suspended my account there long ago. I received an eight-year sentence, to be exact... Posters who upset the apple-cart are either ridiculed as "trolls" or suppressed.


Posted By: irishmufc
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by Danny Invincible Danny Invincible wrote:

Originally posted by benchwarmer benchwarmer wrote:

Have you posted that article up on owc. Would love to see...... oh wait; I couldn't care less. Even when they percieve themselves to be  the victim they somehow manage to sound triumphalistClown


Haha, unfortunately no. The mods suspended my account there long ago. I received an eight-year sentence, to be exact... Posters who upset the apple-cart are either ridiculed as "trolls" or suppressed.
 
LOL what a crowd of gobsh*tes they are.your articles danny are very good.
 
they gave you an 8 year sentence.jesus if trapnoclue had an account there they d give him the death penalty


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Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.


Posted By: El_nino
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by Danny Invincible Danny Invincible wrote:

Originally posted by benchwarmer benchwarmer wrote:

Have you posted that article up on owc. Would love to see...... oh wait; I couldn't care less. Even when they percieve themselves to be  the victim they somehow manage to sound triumphalistClown


Haha, unfortunately no. The mods suspended my account there long ago. I received an eight-year sentence, to be exact... Posters who upset the apple-cart are either ridiculed as "trolls" or suppressed.

 

LOL what a crowd of gobsh*tes they are.your articles danny are very good.

 

.
they gave you an 8 year sentence.jesus if trapnoclue had an account there they d give him the death penalty


I had my account suspended too for simply defending the FAI's right to select any player born on the island of Ireland. They don't do debating it would seem just all one way traffic.


Posted By: BoboDub
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2012 at 10:37pm
Nobody has ever come out and confirmed why. Stevenson certainly felt it was deliberate but was too much of a gent to bad mouth anyone even if they deserved it. Whether it was because he was Protestant, played for rangers, signed up to the RAF in ww2, some other issue or a combination of all or some of those things, he was victimised by the fai for reasons other than sport. He was genuinely one of the greatest Irish midfielders ever to don the jersey and to not be selected by the fai for 14 years between his first and second caps was a travesty.

Any story about the history of selection of players by the associations should always mention the mistreatment of a genuine dub with a serious football pedigree. it is a stain on the association. Along with their failure to hold a minute's silence / applause the day we played brazil after tommy eglington died, or at any game subsequently.


Posted By: Boston Hoop
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2012 at 2:18am
Originally posted by BoboDub BoboDub wrote:

Nobody has ever come out and confirmed why. Stevenson certainly felt it was deliberate but was too much of a gent to bad mouth anyone even if they deserved it. Whether it was because he was Protestant, played for rangers, signed up to the RAF in ww2, some other issue or a combination of all or some of those things, he was victimised by the fai for reasons other than sport. He was genuinely one of the greatest Irish midfielders ever to don the jersey and to not be selected by the fai for 14 years between his first and second caps was a travesty.

Any story about the history of selection of players by the associations should always mention the mistreatment of a genuine dub with a serious football pedigree. it is a stain on the association. Along with their failure to hold a minute's silence / applause the day we played brazil after tommy eglington died, or at any game subsequently.

There certainly sounds like there are questions to be answered or at least wrongs to be acknowledged by both sides. It's all too easy for those on one side to see it completely differently. It's football, all black or white sadly enough. 


Posted By: gspain
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2012 at 8:31am
Originally posted by BoboDub BoboDub wrote:

Nobody has ever come out and confirmed why. Stevenson certainly felt it was deliberate but was too much of a gent to bad mouth anyone even if they deserved it. Whether it was because he was Protestant, played for rangers, signed up to the RAF in ww2, some other issue or a combination of all or some of those things, he was victimised by the fai for reasons other than sport. He was genuinely one of the greatest Irish midfielders ever to don the jersey and to not be selected by the fai for 14 years between his first and second caps was a travesty.

Any story about the history of selection of players by the associations should always mention the mistreatment of a genuine dub with a serious football pedigree. it is a stain on the association. Along with their failure to hold a minute's silence / applause the day we played brazil after tommy eglington died, or at any game subsequently.


I did some research quite some time ago and a number of our players in the 30's were not picked while playing for the IFA team.  Jimmy Dunne went 6 years between caps iirc and played for the IFA side and won the league with Arsenal in that time.  There were quite a few more but a couple who disprove that theory too.  However it seems strange to me that somebody deemed good enough for an All Ireland side was not for an RoI side.

For much of the 1930's relations were really bad, no Inter League games, no games between our clubs etc.  Things improved considerably in the late 30's and through the 40's although were hardly cordial.

I doubt if it was down to religion as we had quite a few protestant players.  Possibly him playing for Rangers but Rangers played a friendly match at Dalymount in front of a large crowd as part of his transfer.  However given how close we came to qualifying for the 34 World Cup without the likes of Stevenson and Dunne it would seem like we screwed up big time.


Posted By: BoboDub
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2012 at 1:02pm
I guess its one of those things the people concerned have taken with them to the grave. Should also say Alex acted as an assistant manager for the national team for a few years after he retired, which shows in what esteem he was held and conversely how bizarre the freeze out was.


Posted By: gspain
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2012 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by BoboDub BoboDub wrote:

I guess its one of those things the people concerned have taken with them to the grave. Should also say Alex acted as an assistant manager for the national team for a few years after he retired, which shows in what esteem he was held and conversely how bizarre the freeze out was.


He was manager of the national team in the 50's albeit the selectors picked the team in those days.  He played for Pats as late as 1954 (aged 41) as well.


Posted By: Paulie
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2012 at 1:46pm
Could someone copy and paste the article please? I can't access the link.


Posted By: BoboDub
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2012 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by gspain gspain wrote:


Originally posted by BoboDub BoboDub wrote:

I guess its one of those things the people concerned have taken with them to the grave. Should also say Alex acted as an assistant manager for the national team for a few years after he retired, which shows in what esteem he was held and conversely how bizarre the freeze out was.


He was manager of the national team in the 50's albeit the selectors picked the team in those days.  He played for Pats as late as 1954 (aged 41) as well.


41 years old and still playing outfield is some achievement!


Posted By: Danny Invincible
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2012 at 5:51pm
Originally posted by Paulie Paulie wrote:

Could someone copy and paste the article please? I can't access the link.

Quote Before he resorted to petty, infantile insults and blocked me on  https://twitter.com/#!/DanielCollins85" rel="nofollow - Twitter  recently, I stood accused of being a supporter of “ http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/13518826" rel="nofollow - football apartheid in Ireland ” by the spokesman and chairman of the  http://www.aonisc.com/" rel="nofollow - Amalgamation of Northern Ireland Supporters Clubs ,  https://twitter.com/#!/WGMac" rel="nofollow - Gary McAllister , after I had made fruitless attempts to debate the matter of  http://playereligibilityinireland.blogspot.co.uk/" rel="nofollow - Irish player eligibility  with him via the medium in entirely good faith.

“Football Apartheid in Ireland” is a somewhat melodramatic, and downright fallacious, backronym of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Association_of_Ireland" rel="nofollow - FAI  – of course, the FAI acronym actually stands for the Football Association of Ireland – manufactured by malcontent Northern Ireland football fans who disagree with the eligibility of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_nationality_law#At_birth" rel="nofollow - Irish nationals (as of birthright) born in Northern Ireland  to play for the FAI. They seek to highlight their cause through the use of emotive language and the concealment behind a convenient mask of apparent social concern of what is actually their self-interest. For what right-thinking person could actually advocate such ludicrous concepts as football apartheid or bad community relations, after all?…

Their scaremongering, disingenuousness and misrepresentation attempts to convince not just the footballing fraternity that the FAI’s selection of these eligible Irish nationals is a concerted sectarian policy that will ultimately lead to an all-Protestant  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Football_Association" rel="nofollow - IFA  team and an all-Catholic FAI team. They seek to establish their cause as an issue of significant general socio-political concern in spite of the naïve retort-cum-mantra they direct at those who support the right of northern-born Irish nationals to declare for the FAI: “Keep politics out of football!”

What they really mean is: “Keep your politics out of what we think is our football!”

There are a number of problems with the general theory that the FAI are promoting “football apartheid in Ireland”. Despite northern-born Irish nationals having been eligible to play for the FAI since 1956, IFA teams have never been bereft of Catholic players willing to line out for them, for whatever reason.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_ONeill" rel="nofollow - Martin O’Neill  played for Northern Ireland in his playing days and the likes of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddy_McCourt" rel="nofollow - Paddy McCourt  and  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn8bkvgVTCE" rel="nofollow - self-confessed Republic of Ireland supporter   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_McGinn" rel="nofollow - Niall McGinn  similarly do so in contemporary times. They are neither rare nor exceptional cases, nor is there any indication or evidence to suggest that players from similar backgrounds will, for some reason, make a sudden, or even gradual, en masse decision to simply stop lining out for the IFA in the future.

Likewise, the Republic of Ireland team is not an all-Catholic outfit, nor has it ever been. The innuendo behind the backronym insinuates a sectarian selection policy on the part of the FAI; that they will facilitate and select only players from Catholic backgrounds. Of course, this could not be further from the truth. Irish nationals with shared heritages as diverse as Turko-German, Maghrebi Arab, Nigerian, Muslim and indeed Ulster Protestant have all been happily facilitated by the FAI; the likes of http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/selcuk-tidim/besondere-spiele/spieler_94267.html" rel="nofollow - Selcuk Tidim ,  http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/lanre-oyebanjo/profil/spieler_67318.html" rel="nofollow - Lanre Oyebanjo ,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89amon_Zayed" rel="nofollow - Éamon Zayed  and  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Kernaghan" rel="nofollow - Alan Kernaghan  all catered for without problem.

If Protestants from north of the border were willing and good enough to play for the FAI, the FAI would undoubtedly facilitate any desires they might harbour. A mix-up in cause and effect on the part of Northern Ireland fans is evident here. The reason northern Protestants do not tend to feature in FAI teams is not because of any sectarian policy or refusal to select them, but, rather, due to the very obvious socio-political reality;  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unionism_in_Ireland#Religion" rel="nofollow - most northern Protestants tend to be of a general unionist persuasion . Consequently, they will possess no cultural affinity with the FAI who represent the independent Irish national identity rather than the regional British or Northern Irish one with which they identify. The latter identity is channelled through the IFA, of course.

There is nothing the FAI can do if a player is not interested in playing for them. Indeed, the FAI can only select players who are willing to volunteer their services to the association. It is not as if they kidnap or intimidate players from Catholic backgrounds in order to force them into doing something they do not want to do, so comparisons with the rather aggressive notion of poaching are similarly misguided.

Some Northern Ireland fans who bark about “football apartheid in Ireland” will try and convince those willing to listen that they are not actually intolerant individuals. They will try and claim that their problem is not with northern nationalists identifying as Irish at all, but, rather, with players participating in the IFA’s youth set-ups prior to switching to the FAI. This seems to contradict their former protestations and so I find such claims of tolerance to be unconvincing. For the sake of argument, if the situation as it is did indeed cause “football apartheid in Ireland”, depriving players of a switch of association would not nullify or limit the possibility of “apartheid” any more so than allowing players a switch of association would; Irish nationals born north of the border would still be entitled to exercise the option of declaring for the FAI. In the interests of logical consistency, those protesting “football apartheid in Ireland” would have to oppose any facilitation for northern-born Irish nationals by the FAI, whether they had already participated in an IFA youth set-up or not. So, this appeal is exposed as sham logic or a veneer ultimately rooted in an intolerance and unwillingness to acknowledge the valid and legitimate national identity of the nationalist community. Either that or it is, at best, pig ignorance.

If some Northern Ireland supporters are genuinely so intent on ridding the island of Ireland of “football apartheid”, they might be better devoting their energies to promoting the amalgamation of the island’s two associations to form a single, all-island team. Not that I am necessarily an advocate of such myself under current circumstances, but, y’know, I’m just saying… Of course, they will complain that such a development would dilute their identity, which is a fair point, but why the double standard and lack of self-awareness then when it comes to their moralising over nationalists wishing to express their national identity by declaring for the FAI?

Northern Ireland fans also attempt to distinguish morally the selection activities of the IFA and the FAI. It is argued that the problem with the FAI is that they are happy to select players who are still of value to other associations whilst the IFA would never do such thing. Of course, any estimation of the value or future worth of a particular player to an association, save in the case of an actual statement of disinterest on the part of the association concerned, would be completely subjective speculation. Who is to say that the FAI ever deemed  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Bruce_%28footballer_born_1984%29" rel="nofollow - Alex Bruce  or  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Gorman" rel="nofollow - Johnny Gorman  surplus to requirements before the IFA entertained them, for example? Did  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Soccer_Association" rel="nofollow - Canada Soccer  ever state  http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/caolan-lavery/profil/spieler_127983.html" rel="nofollow - Caolan Lavery  was surplus to their requirements before he switched to the IFA? Who is to say that a future England goalkeeping crisis would not have seen  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Camp_%28footballer%29" rel="nofollow - Lee Camp  recalled to the England set-up at some point were it not for his switch to the IFA? Worse; the IFA actively seek out players currently registered with other associations with little protest from the hypocrites within their fan-base who go as far to laud such endeavours as progressive. As the IFA’s Elite Player Mentor,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Armstrong_%28footballer%29" rel="nofollow - Gerry Armstrong  has been making it his business to get in contact with the likes of  http://thechels.info/wiki/Anton_Rodgers" rel="nofollow - Anton Rodgers  (currently registered with the FAI) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connor_Wickham" rel="nofollow - Connor Wickham  (currently registered with the FA) with the ultimate aim of convincing them that their international futures lie with the IFA, for whom they also happen to be eligible.

Anyhow, whilst both associations behave in the exact same manner in facilitating or even encouraging the movement of dual nationals towards their respective teams (although  http://www.sportsnewsireland.com/soccer_irish/delaney-dismisses-poaching/" rel="nofollow - the FAI officially deny making any initial approaches in relation to northern-born Irish nationals ), it is not as if there is necessarily something morally wrong with that anyway. The rules are there to provide players and associations with rights. If players and associations seek to exercise these rights and one has a problem with this, they ought to take it up with those who accord these rights, or  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA" rel="nofollow - FIFA , in other words.

And just one final point; northern-born Irish nationals who declare for the FAI do not do so because they are bitter or sectarian either, contrary to frequent accusations to which the likes of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shane_Duffy" rel="nofollow - Shane Duffy or  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_McClean" rel="nofollow - James McClean  were subjected. Likewise, neither I nor the northern side of my family have any interest in supporting Northern Ireland. It’s not because we are bitter or militantly set on the immediate destruction of the IFA or Northern Ireland as a political entity. Rather, it’s because our Irish identity – the independent national one – is channelled not through that entity, but, rather, through the Irish state and, by extension, the FAI. Thus, it is not that the IFA are our enemies; it is simply that the IFA are a cultural irrelevance to us, just as the Scottish, English or Welsh associations are an irrelevance to us. That does not mean we bear them any harm or ill will. Similarly, what anthem and symbols the IFA choose to play under is of no concern to me whatsoever. It will neither offend me nor will it ever encourage me to view them as representative of my identity. My identity is represented elsewhere.



Posted By: Paulie
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2012 at 6:33pm
Thanks for that. I'll have a read later on.



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