But in fairness I don't think you's needed Kenny to say that to know that Liverpool understand the effect it had on other clubs, and Everton in particular!  

 

 

Heysel is Acknowledged on the club crest

 

 

 

One of the 'eternal flames'

 

But being a Liverpool Fan ( and therefore being less knowledgable than the rest of us) I can understand you wouln't be aware of this

 

One is for Hillsbourgh the other is for Heysel was always my understanding

 

Think it's a common misconception among Liverpool fans that the two flames represent both Hillsborough and Heysel but it's only Hillsborough in reality and the second flame is just for symmetry.

good article i stumbled across on heysel

NOW that the lies, the smears and cruel myths about the Hillsborough disaster have been exposed once and for all, those who clung to them out of warped tribalism have but one straw left to clutch. “What about justice for Heysel?”, they plead. “What about the truth of what happened there?”

Actually, they might have a point, even if they raise it out of malice rather than consideration for the bereaved. The publication – and belated national acceptance – of the real truth about Hillsborough has been a source of great vindication for all who were affected by that tragedy. But questions undoubtedly remain about the Heysel Stadium disaster, in which 39 spectators – 32 from Italy, four from Belgium, two from France, one from Northern Ireland – were killed in a stampede before the 1985 European Cup final between Liverpool and Juventus.

Those bereaved and outraged by Hillsborough have fought to keep their campaign for justice alive and been entirely vindicated for doing so. By contrast, Heysel remains the tragedy that dares not speak its name. So let us talk about it. Let us state a few of the facts about whether justice was done.

We all know that English football, collectively, was punished, with clubs excluded from Uefa competition. Liverpool immediately withdrew, in disgrace, from the next season’s Uefa Cup. Within hours the FA, under pressure from the government, announced that no English club would play in the following season’s Uefa competition – and that of course included Everton, denied a tilt at the European Cup, and Norwich City, denied a first ever European campaign. Two days later Uefa announced an indefinite ban on English clubs. It ended up at five years, with Liverpool serving a sixth as punishment for their supporters’ behaviour at Heysel.

This was not a knee-jerk reaction to a one-off night of mayhem. This – both the sanction and, it could be argued, the widespread loss of life – had been coming. Heysel was the disgraceful culmination of more than a decade of ugly incidents involving English supporters on their European travels: Tottenham Hotspur in Rotterdam in 1974 and 1983, Leeds United in Paris in 1975, Manchester United in St Etienne in 1977, the national team in Basle in 1981 and so on until the spiral of moronic violence reached its tragic conclusion – logical in one sense, crazy in all others – in Brussels.

As to whether individuals were brought to account, 27 arrests were made on suspicion of manslaughter and 26 men were charged. (These, incidentally, do not tend to be described as Liverpool supporters – in part because of claims at the time from John Smith, the club’s chairman, and two Merseyside councilors that National Front members from London had been responsible. There are many sensitive issues here, but let us not pussyfoot over this one. As Tony Evans, football editor of The Times and author of Far Foreign Land, a brilliant book about his experiences following Liverpool at Heysel and all over Europe, put it: “It was a red herring. Hooligans from the far right would not have been welcome.”)

The prosecutions stemmed from television camera footage of the charge – the third such charge in a matter of minutes – that led directly to the deaths of those 39 innocent spectators. There are dozens of points that are usually offered to explain the context, not least over ticketing, segregation and a crumbling stadium, but the context does not begin to excuse what happened. No amount of context ever could.

Those stampedes might have been considered standard terrace fare at the time, a token act of territorialism and intimidation, but it led innocent fans to flee in terror. Some tried to climb a wall to escape. The wall crumbled. Thirty-nine people were crushed to death. The world was appalled. Turin went into mourning. Liverpool and their supporters were left to live with what they know, 27 years later, to be an indelible stain.

As for “justice”, an initial inquiry by Marina Coppieters, a leading Belgian judge, found after 18 months that the police and the authorities, in addition to Liverpool supporters, should face charges. Quite apart from the hooliganism, ticketing arrangements and police strategy and responses were criticised. By this stage, English supporters were regarded across Europe as such animals that shock was expressed at how the authorities had played into their hands.

There was bewilderment, too, at the choice of stadium. And where have you heard that before? Uefa chose a ground that had been built in the 1920s and condemned in the early 1980s for failing to meet modern safety standards, which were far from stringent. Evans recalls that the outer wall, made of cinder block, was decaying, that he was not required to show his ticket and that, long before the stampede, he saw a crash barrier in front of him crumble.

Jacques Georges, the Uefa president at the time, and Hans Bangerter, his general secretary, were threatened with imprisonment but eventually given conditional discharges. Albert Roosens, the former secretary-general of the Belgian Football Union (BFU), was given a six-month suspended prison sentence for “regrettable negligence” with regard to ticketing arrangements. So was gendarme captain Johan Mahieu, who was in charge of the policing the stands at Heysel. “He made fundamental errors,” Pierre Verlynde, the judge, said. “He was far too passive. I find his negligence extraordinary.”

In 1989, after a five-month trial in Brussels, 14 of the 26 Liverpool supporters who stood trial were found guilty of involuntary manslaughter and given a three-year prison sentence, suspended for 18 months, and each ended up serving about a year in total in behind bars. The remaining ten defendants were acquitted of manslaughter, but some had their £2,000 bail money confiscated, having been absent for part of the trial. And civil damages estimated at more than £5million were provisionally awarded to families of the Heysel victims against the convicted fans and the BFU.

But you never hear of this because the tragedy is taboo. It was only brought into the open when Liverpool and Juventus were drawn together in the Champions League quarter-final in 2005, at which point the Merseyside club, after consultation with their Italian counterparts, announced it would be a game of “friendship”. Before the first leg at Anfield, Liverpool supporters held up a mosaic to form the word “amicizia”. Some of the visiting Juventus fans applauded. Most, it seemed, turned their backs in disgust. And while the rejection of the olive branch met with a little consternation on Merseyside, Liverpool’s supporters know all too well about the type of apology that comes too late, brought by events, to sound truly sincere.

Heysel is an unspeakably awkward subject for Liverpool – perhaps more, perhaps less, for the anguish the club and the city endured four years later at Hillsborough. It is a black mark and it will be there forever. Supporters of rival teams chant “Murderers” and the Liverpool fans have little response. On one infamous occasion at Goodison Park in 2008, the away fans responded by singing “2-0 to the Murderers”. I know that this was somewhere between a knee-jerk response and an attempt to “reclaim” that offensive description, but it sounded awful. Were they listening in Turin? You would hope not.

For many years, Liverpool ’s response to Heysel was woefully inadequate. I was shown a copy of the club’s official yearbook for 1985/86. There were two articles about the tragedy on page three, but they were both of the “Let’s put this behind us, improve the matchday Anfield atmosphere and look to restore the club’s good name” variety. There was no direct reference to what had happened. There was no hint of an apology. Later there was a round-up of the previous European Cup campaign, in which 1985/86 was identified as a “watershed” because it would be Liverpool ’s last for some time.

Over time, there was a recognition that more – much more – needed to be done. In 2000 the city of Liverpool officially commemorated the anniversary of Heysel for the first time – on the suggestion, incidentally, of Peter Millea, the chairman of Liverpool City Council’s Hillsborough disaster working party.

They do at least now have a memorial plaque at Anfield, they do have extensive coverage of the tragedy on their official website and they do pay tribute on May 30 every year, even if it took far too long for the club to recognise the tragedy and the stain it had left — not unlike Sheffield Wednesday with Hillsborough, although the circumstances there involved appalling failures at executive level.

Heysel is a huge stain on Liverpool ’s history. It is undeniable. And yet none of this diminishes the club’s or the supporters’ right to grieve or to campaign or to express anger over what happened in Sheffield four years later.

One real mystery surrounding Heysel is that the tragedy is even more of a taboo in Turin.

Go on to the Italian club’s official website in search of a tribute and you will struggle to find anything beyond 106 words within a 645-word article called “Juventus wins everything”, a tribute to their successes in the 1970s and 1980s.

Of the club’s first European Cup triumph in 1985, it says: “The long-awaited success in Europe ’s highest accolade was tainted with sadness” … “Something unexplainable happened …. and 39 innocent victims lost their lives. Football, from that moment, would never be the same again.” … “It’s a joyless success, but the victory enabled the Bianconeri to fly to Tokyo in winter to play the Intercontinental Cup final. Argentinos Junior were beaten on penalties and Juve were the world champions.”

You will have to do an archive search to find anything more than that – specifically a couple of news articles on the anniversary. One includes details of a permanent Heysel exhibit at the museum which opened last year at the new Juventus Stadium. The club has decided that relatives of the victims will always be allowed permanent free access to the museum.

This is progress. For many years the bereaved met with what they perceived to be a sense of denial from Juventus about a disaster that overshadowed the club’s long-awaited first European Cup win. In The Truths of Heysel – a book written by Andrea Lorentini, whose father Roberto died in Brussels and whose grandfather Otello has led the campaign for the victims to be officially recognised by the club – writes of the “bewilderment, reticence, guilty silences and suspicion” the bereaved have faced in their dealings with Juventus.

Justice for Heysel? There can never be justice for 39 lives lost at a football match, but it is in Turin , not on Merseyside, that the cries of the bereaved have met with silence down the years.

The families do not want their lost ones to become a cause celebre in England , particularly not when the purpose has purely been to score points on the terraces. A little more recognition closer to home is what they want.

 

Only in the last 15 years have i come back to the fold, now supporting both Spurs and Ireland !

I am not joking or sl*gging when I say Heysel wrecked everything for me back then . I was trully shoked by The Liverpool Fans .

As far as i'm concerned they never apologised and when they did it was way too late . To be honest i take all this Justtice for the 96 with a very large pinch of salt. Liverpool FC of all clubs should have understood about justice .....so saying sorry to Everton ....big deal Kenny et al....say sorry to the families of the 39 crushed becasue of the charge of your clubs fans !!! that would be more like it 

Shocking negligence from the Belgian authorities, ridiculously lenient sentences handed out for both the hooligans and authorities. UEFA's clear anglophobia was a disgraceful reaction too which still resonates to this day imo. There's a lot of jealousy towards the EPL's wealth and global popularity from UEFA who had no problem when sides like Real Madrid and  AC Milan were spending big in the late 80s/early 90s. I remember Platini coming out with how he was glad England didn't qualify for Euro 2008. It was very unprofessional given the position he holds. 

when I say supported , I use the term very loosely , I didnt really support any team and had no real affinity to any team in Engalnd . I used support Galway United ....truth be told ( in the true sense of being a supporter)...it was probably more like having a  familiarity of Liverpool listening to mates about them 

Before the 84 Final, Liverpool fans were repeatedly assaulted in Rome and even today, fans of English clubs are often attacked when their team plays games in Italy. The most recent been Spurs fans when they played Lazio in Rome. In 1985, hooliganism was rampant among English fans in Europe. There were many riots in stadiums and widespread destruction away from the stadiums. The difference with Heysel was the stadium was fundamentally unsafe, and so the wall gave way. No walls give way during the most violent riots today. UEFA were warned not to have a neutral section separating the fans on the same terrace. They failed to heed the warning, and mayhem erupted on the night. 

But that's the point the article is trying to make.20 years later is a long time. I completely agree with your post about UEFA. Their negligence was and overreaction was disgraceful. They used Heysel as an excuse to make an example of English teams instead of getting their own house in order. It was a long time coming when Liverpool took responsibility for their 'fans' part in it but certainly the responsibility for the disaster shouldn't fall solely at Liverpool's door either

 

Simple Fact - If Liverpool fans had not charged at the Juve fans, this would not have happened and those people would not have perished. Despite the state of the ground, it was still down to animalistic behaviour that caused those Deaths. Don't go looking for someone else to blame. It's never your fault, my arse.

I think the point he's making is that this behaviour happened week in week out across England every Saturday afternoon and across Europe whenever England or English teams played.

 

That night a wall collapsed and tragedy happened.

It could have happened before but didnt same as Hillsborough could have happened numerouis times before it actually did.

 

I dont think he is excusing Liverpool fans behaviour at all.

 

 

 

Juventus fans's view on it all.

That's a legitimate point but the fact was Liverpool as a club took a long time to address it (out of shame or whatever reason), and fully acknowledge their fans own role in it. To just say "a wall collapsed and tragedy happened" belies the fact of what caused the wall to collapse in the first place 

They're really paying tribute to the families of the 39 there. Dirtbags 

How UEFA felt it was ok, to allocate a "Neutral Zone" to "separate" teams from two of the worst countries for hooliganism at the time, knowing that local fans of both sides would buy tickets for that section, beggars belief. 

I think it's common knowledge also, that there were fans of other English clubs in the Liverpool section. And at the time, they were only at games for one reason. 

 

The wall collapsed due to the extreme pressure applied from the weight of people pushed against it trying to escape being attacked.

I hold both sets of fans responsible for the rioting, I blame UEFA for the ticket allocation, and the Belgian FA for the stadium condition/wall collapse. Most people though took the simpler option. 

If it was the Juventus fans that done the charging and there were 39 dead Liverpool fans, you would in your bollix be blaming both sets of fans and you know it. I find that a despicable attitude.

You couldn't even take a bit of sl*gging on here about Liverpool being founded by an orangeman in good spirit to which the other Liverpool fans did despite your claims to the contrary. 

It was waiting to happen for years and that is down to UEFA but the way you worded it you seemed to ignore the fact of why the wall actually collapsed in that moment.  

Honestly thing is DP I'm not even trying to stick the knife in here or point score in any way. I was on a train with United fans coming back from OT and they were singing about crushed scousers at hillsborough so I'm certainly not trying to take any moral high ground in that 'our scum are not as bad as your scum' but Planning's unwillingness to acknowledge Liverpool's  part culpability over Juventus in this actually trivializes the tragedy and I find that a woeful attitude to have. 

Whatever about defending trappattoni to the hilt, you cannot defend the indefensible especially when it resulted in the loss of human life

it wuz chelsea lard

It's chalk and cheese:

Liverpool fans were totally to blame for Heysel - hooliganism

Liverpool fans were completely blameless for Hillsborough - police ineptitude/fences blocking escape

The 2 tragedies should never be compared.

is someone planning a wind up ? 

 

Never your fault........

 

Jesus that's mental. Where in the stadium was your dad? Apparently the players didn't realize the scale of what was happening until either later on that night or the next morning 

Dalglish claimed this but Neal and Lawrenson said they knew which meant they all knew.

I get the rest but what about this highlighted bit ...what do you mean and any other fan . they acted alone etc .

The thing is they did not act alone and yes they were Liverpool fans with Liverpool colours on representing Liverpool Football club...the club you adore. 

it was not one crazed luantic running across the terraces...there were hundreds of them causing terror and a stampede towrads the perimeter wall that colapsed with the pressure put on it. I dont care if it was old . I dont care if it was made of cardboard, people in that section of the gound were so frightened by what was coming there way ....this was the outcome.

So Andkend , you need to accept this that though you were not there ....your co supporters of LFC were and they did this .

It just means that the double stadards of the Justicefor the 96 falls on ears that might not be so open to listen .

By the way you mention hooligans...Hooligans dont wear football colours and generally dont get into or even bother trying to get into the games ....these were fans of the club who got tickets from the club I presume 

 

Liverpool are and never where shreiking violets when it comes to trouble around football. The whole history of the "football casual" phenomenon is directly traced back to Liverpool in the late 70's - early 80's when their fans "acquired" designed sportswear on their jibbing trips abroad to support their team. 

Dont thinks its the current success that is driving this  ...more to do with the fact that the new tribunal for the victims of Hilsborough has started and is getting alot of media attention. ....which begs the question for the rest of us ....seeing as we are talking about Hilsborough maybe Heysel deserves the same attention.

For my part,  as a Spurs fan, I am admire what Liverpool are doing on the field of play....would be happy enough for them to win the league this year.

As Barna Bee says Liverpool had to take responsibility as the perpetrators were associated with the the club. I suppose what irked the rest of the football world was the double standards when the club's own unwillingness to fully acknowledge their own fans part in what occured at Heysel. Liverpool were slow to (out of shame) to come to terms with their own actions. 

The FA finally took responsibility after years of English fans causing trouble at major football tournaments and together with the UK Police started coming down hard on the known hooligan elements, preventing them from travelling. There has been no major trouble involving English supporters since Euro 2000. These fans were dragging their country's name through the mud and they had to tackle it and it's been a huge success. 

Do you mean England fans or English fans ?

 

Because Ive been on two trips to Madrid and Barcelona where the Toon Army and Liverpool's finest wrecked the place. Not to mention Chelsea's antics in Amsterdam and Paris.

 

It is Liverpool fans fault, of course it is.

 

But it's also the fault of Chelsea Headhunters, Millwall Bushwackers, West Ham's ICF etc who were all present that faithfull night in Brussels. It was a big night, the World Cup in Mexico the following year was too far away for your average thug to travel.

 

Why did UEFA (and the FA and the Conservative Government) ban ALL English clubs and not just Liverpool.

 

Anyway Im sick of all this Heysel/Hillsborough sh*te at this stage, its nearly 30 years ago.

 

 

It really goes by the collective mindset and level of alcohol consumption. Most English fans I ever met were spot on but as England generally bring large numbers to major tournaments you'll always get a few hundred scumbags when the majority are behaving themselves. They still have a sizable minority that sing racist offensive chants and start trouble as they drink to excess. You look at the conduct of Ireland and Celtic fans in direct contrast to Rangers/ England ones when they travel abroad. 

This colonial mindset which is based on subjugation of other peoples and countries is something that'll always remain with that sizable minority who live in that Thatcherite time warp that Britain still rules the seven seas. 

 

That happened at Italia 90..........in Caligiari and Genoa

 

Remember the queue for tickets for the Genoa match and we were coralled in behind crash barriers by the caribineiri for a couple of hours in the mid afternoon sun, sweating like dogs. We were literally melting in the sun waiting for the ticket desk to open. Anyway eventually it opens and the crowd starts moving causing a slight surge. The lads at the top of the queue spill forward and are encouraged to move back by baton wielding cops. The cops are all dead cool in their shades and swanky uniforms and poor paddy is in a jocker from the sun and dehydration. This one big fella trips forward a little and is pushed back by one of the cops. Your man was getting seriously pissed off and says to the cop "touch me again and i'll shove that stick for far up your arse".......the copper had this look of total fear on his face and walked away to a hail of laughter and abuse from the lads in the queue.

Seen that on a video of Italia 90 before, the confusion on the policemen's face was brilliant.

not a man city fan, thought i would share an article that was well balanced on the whole, no great conspiracy. 

 

They were robbing tickets off their fellow supporters as recently as 2007.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-459708/Ticket-stealing-Liverpool-fans-branded-worst-Europe-UEFA.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-459708/Ticket-stealing-Liverpool-fans-branded-worst-Europe-UEFA.html

 

Sadly, Hillsborough wasnt just about the 96 who perished.

 

What about those who got PDSD and have been permanently damaged since that day ?

What about those permanently disabled since that day, both mentally and phsically ?

What about those who drank themselves to death to escape what the saw that day ?

What about those who committed suicide to escape what they saw that day ?

What about the relationships and families destroyed as a consequence of events that day ?

What about those who survived and living with survivors guilt since that day ?

 

 

 

 

I didn't excuse Liverpool fans role in it. I explicitly said who was responsible for each turn of events. Sorry that it doesn't suit the conventional "Blame Liverpool" mantra. 

Oh you are reading and posting again, as you will in the future. 

You won't post about this on May 29th though, as everyone quietly forgets about it every year after the Hillsborough Anniversary passes. 

The timing of this thread is interesting, it was't brought up last year, why because Liverpool were midtable.

It's brought up in April every year, usually by fans of Liverpool's rivals. On the day of the 20th Hillsborough Anniversary, someone wrote out the names of all victims of Heysel, trying to make 2 wrongs to be a right. They whinge that Liverpool don't accept responsibility, when in reality it's just a way to remind Liverpool of what happened. 

I support a number of clubs throughout Europe, with less than squeaky clean fan records down the years. If you took all the mudslinging and propaganda thrown to heart, you'd never watch a game again. But once the next game is underway, you're ready to watch and go again. 

I'm suggesting that Liverpool football club's attempt to distance themselves from the event certainly showed a lack of respect to the people that died, the families of those who died & to Juventus. All it would have taken is an apology yet the chairman of the club suggested it was people not associated with Liverpool who caused the trouble over there that night. I was only 6 but I can remember the red jerseys & scarves on the people who were running after elderly men with sticks & stones. What happened that night was nothing short of a disgrace & yet those involved still will never own up to it. Its not a personal thing, I would be saying the same about any club if they were involved in something like that. I will say the same thing about Galatasary after the animals that associate themselves with the club murdered the 2 Leeds fans. No official apology was given to Leeds after that night. 14 years after those 2 lads were murdered I still hope that Galatasary rots from the inside out because they refused to acknowledge the incident. Like Liverpool, they deflected blame away from themselves.  

What happened at Heysel was caused by Liverpool supporters end of story, it can be dressed up anyway you want but those are the facts. And yes, Hillsborough & Heysel can be compared. They were 2 events that should never have happened. Both could have been prevented & more could have been done on the day itself to lessen the devastation that occurred. Liverpool got their apology from the people to blame for Hillsborough after a 20 odd year song & dance about it but Juve & the families of the victims at Heysel didn't get such an apology. 

They are not the facts.

 

The facts are that there were a considerable number of fans there from firms attached to Chelsea, Millwall, West Ham and others. It was a National Crew and yes of course it included Liverpool hooligans too. They were not there to watch the match, they were there to cause trouble and I bet you a thousand euro that not one of them had a match ticket. If it was Aston Villa or Nottingham Forest playing Juventus that night the same thing would have happened.

 

You obviously know nothing about hooliganism.

You talk about seeing red jerseys and scarves - casuals dont wear colours.

 

 

 

Oh so the Liverpool fans convicted weren't actually Liverpool fans? They were Millwall fans with a Merseyside address? What is your point about fans not having tickets? Hundreds of fans had knocked a hole in a wall so they could get in to see the match, they were all Millwall fans as well though were they? The hundreds of fellas seen in plain view of the many TV cameras there that night were wearing red scarves, I don't know what footage you were watching.

By the way, you've just proved my point. Liverpool blaming everyone but themselves. I'll be honest I'm just laughing at your pathetic excuse to defend what happened. What have Chelsea, Millwall & West Ham got to do with anything? Are you seriously trying to say they were the instigators of the stampede & the violence? Perhaps you should watch the footage of the guys in the Liverpool tops & scarves fighting with the Juve fans in the square before the game, on the pitch after the collapse of the wall & the footage of after the game when the Liverpool fans with Munich flags were lighting fires on the terrace.

Its all on camera & in hundreds of eye witness reports all of which are available online. I suggest you educate youreself on the events before commenting.

So where do you get your facts from mand why would anyone listen to you ...what do you know about hooliganism that we don't? Not trying to start a fight but would appreciate to hear how well you are versed on thsi topic.

Who told you who was there and who was not ? 

My own knowledge of hooligans is that they dont go to games at all and dont wear colours . The wall collapsed when flag weidling Liverpool football fans ....and there were many ( hundreds involved) charged across their end to the neutral section where some Juve fans were situated  There is footage to prove this . its what the world  saw and bore witness to. 

Yes there was trouble outside the ground with the thugs and different firms  but the perptrators of the charge and wall collapse were football fans in the Liverpool end of the ground . Undeniable !