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SuperDave84 View Drop Down
Robbie Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9 hours 40 minutes ago at 1:01pm
Exactly. In terms of the 5 year residence requirement, FIFA could easily change that to being 5 years before the age of 18 and it would deal with the issue of lads who only qualify by residence as a result of being professional footballers. It is a bit ridiculous that a lad with, say, a Luxembourg under 15 appearance can be held to Luxembourg over one his grandparent's countries, but a better player, say a Brazilian, can move to Spain aged 21 and, assuming he has no Brazilian underage appearances (because there are literally thousands of decent Brazilian players and he was never selected), can play for Spain after 5 years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9 hours 38 minutes ago at 1:03pm
From that Thornley article:

"Five is roughly equivalent to 20 years in the working lives of most adults, especially given rugby’s ever-shortening careers"

What, do we measure rugby years like dog years now?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9 hours 31 minutes ago at 1:10pm
Originally posted by Drumcondra 69er Drumcondra 69er wrote:

Gerry Thornley missing the point in true egg chasing fashion here.


I think Thornley makes a lot of very valid points. Especially considering the management of the provinces and the loyalty to the provinces that has been so evident since the dawn of professionalism.

Nationalism, citizenship and eligibility are complex things and most sports have their own absurd rules which are either highly restrictive or too lax.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Conan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9 hours 9 minutes ago at 1:32pm
Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

I understand what you're saying conan but to answer your question; bloodline. 

Players like robinson have blood ties to ireland so playing for ireland has roots. 

Maybe you feel that simply living in a country for a few years in enough but this is one of the reasons I feels international football is losing its appeal.

It's more club football with some mercenaries dotted here and there. The national pride seems to be dwindling 
Irish blood has exactly the same chemical components as the rest of the world though, we don't have shamrock shaped vessels. Ancestral genetic concepts of identity are meaningless in any terms, its the environment you grow up in that defines you, that doesn't mean you can't have an Irish identity if you're like Breen or Kilbane with all Irish family and immersed in the Irish community in England but this really doesn't apply to the likes of Robinson. It doesn't even look like he's legally entitled to play for us anyway according to FIFA rules. Can't understand how you could argue Robinson, or Crowley for that matter,  is more Irish than Fati is Spanish, especially as they had already chosen another country ahead of us as long as they were wanted by the other country. Its just not an objective argument.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8 hours 51 minutes ago at 1:50pm
With that logic then conan, the standard for representing a country is negligible. Why does even living in the country matter? Why cant you just feel irish or feel close to irish culture and want to play for ireland/England etc

Fifa have applied a standard, I don't think that standard benefits international football. These standards have changed over the years and will very likely change again. If fact there seems to be confusion in the current rules that have delayed Johansson playing for ireland.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7 hours 45 minutes ago at 2:56pm
Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

With that logic then conan, the standard for representing a country is negligible. Why does even living in the country matter? Why cant you just feel irish or feel close to irish culture and want to play for ireland/England etc





Living and working in Ireland eventually allows you to qualify to apply for citizenship. I know with spouses it’s 3 years, which actually reflects the  IRB’s rule in regard to residency. It’s a lot less fluky than the jus sanguinus approach, which means you can have no spiritual or emotional connection to the country, but you qualify, notwithstanding you may never have set foot in the country.

Why should somebody, whose grandparents may have only had a blood lineage link to Ireland, be entitled when somebody who may have directly contributed to Irish society by way of community work, tax paying etc be deemed less so? It’s slightly absurd when you think about it.

Feeling Irish or a being close to its culture makes you an Eireaphile (is that what’s it’s called), and nothing more. It would be a much, much lower bar than those connected by bloodline or those who live and work in the country. You wouldn’t hand out citizenships on that basis. But the bar that people who come and live in ireland might qualify for participation in a private organisation, is totally reasonable to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7 hours 31 minutes ago at 3:10pm
Has it occurred to anyone that blood linkage and naturalisation might both be perfectly legitimate reasons to entitle someone to play for a country? Clearly all of this moaning over how many years are needed to make you Irish and when these years need to occur in your lifespan is rooted in a deeper moral panic about international football "losing its identity". Where exactly is the evidence for this? In my experience, the only "evidence" most people can present is that they watched a game and saw too many guys playing for a country that "weren't the right colour, didn'thave the right names" etc etc. That is not evidence of international football losing its identity, its evidence of your own psychological biases and narrow mindedness....
We're decent enough..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeclanDaly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7 hours 25 minutes ago at 3:16pm
An Irish-born grandparent qualifies you for Irish citizenship. An Irish born parent makes you an Irish citizen from birth. Those are rights protected by our constitution for the benefit of you, your kids, your grandkids and so on. Leaving football out of this, if you have a quarrel with Callum Robinsons right to an Irish passport, you should bring that up with the government.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6 hours 53 minutes ago at 3:48pm
Originally posted by DeclanDaly DeclanDaly wrote:

An Irish-born grandparent qualifies you for Irish citizenship. An Irish born parent makes you an Irish citizen from birth. Those are rights protected by our constitution for the benefit of you, your kids, your grandkids and so on. Leaving football out of this, if you have a quarrel with Callum Robinsons right to an Irish passport, you should bring that up with the government.


There's actually a little more to it than that.

An Irish-born person with an Irish citizen parent is an Irish citizen from birth.
Regardless of location of birth, any person born with an Irish-born Irish citizen parent is an Irish citizen from birth.
Regardless of location of birth, any person born with any class of Irish citizen parent (provided that parent was an Irish citizen at the time of the child's birth) is entitled to entry on the register of foreign births, and thus entitled to citizenship.

So if you only get your citizenship because you have an Irish grandparent, your children are still entitled to citizenship, provided at the time of their birth, you were already an Irish citizen. There is no requirement that that person have any particular class of citizenship. The same applies to their children, and their children, etc. It means, for example, you could have ten generations of people with Irish passports who have never even been to Ireland never mind having been born there but, provided each parent gets Irish citizenship before their children are born, their children will remain entitled to Irish citizenship.

However, for FIFA eligibility purposes, they wouldn't be eligible unless their parents or grandparents were born in Ireland.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cildaratown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6 hours 51 minutes ago at 3:50pm
Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

Originally posted by DeclanDaly DeclanDaly wrote:

An Irish-born grandparent qualifies you for Irish citizenship. An Irish born parent makes you an Irish citizen from birth. Those are rights protected by our constitution for the benefit of you, your kids, your grandkids and so on. Leaving football out of this, if you have a quarrel with Callum Robinsons right to an Irish passport, you should bring that up with the government.


There's actually a little more to it than that.

An Irish-born person with an Irish citizen parent is an Irish citizen from birth.
Regardless of location of birth, any person born with an Irish-born Irish citizen parent is an Irish citizen from birth.
Regardless of location of birth, any person born with any class of Irish citizen parent (provided that parent was an Irish citizen at the time of the child's birth) is entitled to entry on the register of foreign births, and thus entitled to citizenship.

So if you only get your citizenship because you have an Irish grandparent, your children are still entitled to citizenship, provided at the time of their birth, you were already an Irish citizen. There is no requirement that that person have any particular class of citizenship. The same applies to their children, and their children, etc. It means, for example, you could have ten generations of people with Irish passports who have never even been to Ireland never mind having been born there but, provided each parent gets Irish citizenship before their children are born, their children will remain entitled to Irish citizenship.

However, for FIFA eligibility purposes, they wouldn't be eligible unless their parents or grandparents were born in Ireland.

Does it work like that? If you get irish citizenship through an Irish Granny, your kids would then be eligible for citizenship? Thought both the mom and dad would have to be citizens for that to happen. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Conan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6 hours 45 minutes ago at 3:56pm
Originally posted by DeclanDaly DeclanDaly wrote:

An Irish-born grandparent qualifies you for Irish citizenship. An Irish born parent makes you an Irish citizen from birth. Those are rights protected by our constitution for the benefit of you, your kids, your grandkids and so on. Leaving football out of this, if you have a quarrel with Callum Robinsons right to an Irish passport, you should bring that up with the government.


There's a difference though between having a legal right to apply for citizenship and actually being Irish in any meaningful way. I doubt Robinson would ever have given a second thought to the Irish origins of one branch of his family as they were not relevant to him, had in not been an expedient route in to international football  when he realised he wasn't likely to make it with England. That in itself has to be wrong as you should represent in an actual way the country you are playing for or else international football is just club football. It just cheapens our national team
In the legal sense anyway Robinson shouldn't have been able to transfer as the Johansson case is proving.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeclanDaly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6 hours 28 minutes ago at 4:13pm
Originally posted by Conan Conan wrote:

Originally posted by DeclanDaly DeclanDaly wrote:

An Irish-born grandparent qualifies you for Irish citizenship. An Irish born parent makes you an Irish citizen from birth. Those are rights protected by our constitution for the benefit of you, your kids, your grandkids and so on. Leaving football out of this, if you have a quarrel with Callum Robinsons right to an Irish passport, you should bring that up with the government.


There's a difference though between having a legal right to apply for citizenship and actually being Irish in any meaningful way. I doubt Robinson would ever have given a second thought to the Irish origins of one branch of his family as they were not relevant to him, had in not been an expedient route in to international football  when he realised he wasn't likely to make it with England. That in itself has to be wrong as you should represent in an actual way the country you are playing for or else international football is just club football. It just cheapens our national team
In the legal sense anyway Robinson shouldn't have been able to transfer as the Johansson case is proving.

With all respect, the constitutional right to citizenship that is afforded to me and my kids is more meaningful than whatever your definition of “meaningful” is here. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6 hours 25 minutes ago at 4:16pm
Originally posted by cildaratown cildaratown wrote:

Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

Originally posted by DeclanDaly DeclanDaly wrote:

An Irish-born grandparent qualifies you for Irish citizenship. An Irish born parent makes you an Irish citizen from birth. Those are rights protected by our constitution for the benefit of you, your kids, your grandkids and so on. Leaving football out of this, if you have a quarrel with Callum Robinsons right to an Irish passport, you should bring that up with the government.


There's actually a little more to it than that.

An Irish-born person with an Irish citizen parent is an Irish citizen from birth.
Regardless of location of birth, any person born with an Irish-born Irish citizen parent is an Irish citizen from birth.
Regardless of location of birth, any person born with any class of Irish citizen parent (provided that parent was an Irish citizen at the time of the child's birth) is entitled to entry on the register of foreign births, and thus entitled to citizenship.

So if you only get your citizenship because you have an Irish grandparent, your children are still entitled to citizenship, provided at the time of their birth, you were already an Irish citizen. There is no requirement that that person have any particular class of citizenship. The same applies to their children, and their children, etc. It means, for example, you could have ten generations of people with Irish passports who have never even been to Ireland never mind having been born there but, provided each parent gets Irish citizenship before their children are born, their children will remain entitled to Irish citizenship.

However, for FIFA eligibility purposes, they wouldn't be eligible unless their parents or grandparents were born in Ireland.

Does it work like that? If you get irish citizenship through an Irish Granny, your kids would then be eligible for citizenship? Thought both the mom and dad would have to be citizens for that to happen. 


It does work like that:
"(1) A person is an Irish citizen from birth if at the time of his or her birth either parent was an Irish citizen or would if alive have been an Irish citizen.
...
(3) Subsection (1) shall not confer Irish citizenship on a person born outside the island of Ireland if the parent through whom he or she derives citizenship was also born outside the island of Ireland unless ... that person’s birth is registered under section 27"

Section 27:

"(1) A foreign births entry book shall be kept at such Irish diplomatic missions and consular offices as the Minister for Foreign Affairs may, from time to time, specify in regulations.
(1A) A foreign births register shall be kept in the Department of Foreign Affairs in Dublin.
(2) The birth outside the island of Ireland of a person deriving citizenship through a father or mother so born may be registered, in accordance with the foreign births regulations, either in any foreign births entry book or in the foreign births register, at the option of the person registering the birth."


So once the parent is a citizen and registered at the time of the kid's birth, it's all good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 1 hour 54 minutes ago at 8:47pm
Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Its unlikely that at any point in history [Ansu Fati] has ties to Spain.

From his Wiki page:

His father is ex-footballer Bori Fati, who was from Guinea-Bissau. After immigrating to Portugal, he set up some teams in the lower leagues. There, he read a story of the Andalusian town Marinaleda, situated near Seville, that was offering work to immigrants. After begging for food on the streets of Marinaleda, he met the mayor and found a job as a driver. Then he settled in Herrera, a nearby town, where Ansu would spend most of his childhood and where he would get his football enlightenment training. Though born in Guinea-Bissau, Bori has said he is "a Sevillian"

Not sure what you're looking to prove here territorial, his father begged on the streets of spain and therefore.... what? 


Not looking to "prove" anything, merely pointing out that the family weren't simply "parachuted" into Spain one day recently - his father moved there and settled years previously and it's where the boy himself learned how to play.


Edited by Territorial - 1 hour 54 minutes ago at 8:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 1 hour 42 minutes ago at 8:59pm
Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

I just get the feeling that the rules that fifa have implemented benefit the stronger nations with first refusal of players.

Absolutely not.

By far the biggest change recently was scrapping the rule that changes couldn't be made after 21, also that a full international friendly didn't tie you to your first country.

This was at the instigation of African countries. They saw how many 1st generation emigrants to France, Belgium and Germany etc were getting capped at under-age level by their coutry of birth, but then failing to make it right the way up to senior "A" level (or maybe getting one or two friendly caps even before turning 21) before being discarded.

They might still be good enough to play for their ancestral home, but were tied. Iirc, the African nations staged a surprise vote at a FIFA AGM to push this through before UEFA could get organised to resist.

In fact I've just this  moment remembered, it was Freddie Kanoute's case which prompted the change:
"While playing for Lyon, Kanouté joined the French under-21 team.[13] After turning 21 in 1998, Kanouté was not called up for the French national squad in 2000, 2002, or 2004. In 2004, FIFA changed its rules to allow a footballer to play for the national team of the country in which his mother or father was born. Although eligible for either, Kanouté elected to play for Mali rather than for France."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Kanout%C3%A9


Edited by Territorial - 1 hour 40 minutes ago at 9:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 39 minutes ago at 10:02pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

I just get the feeling that the rules that fifa have implemented benefit the stronger nations with first refusal of players.

Absolutely not.

By far the biggest change recently was scrapping the rule that changes couldn't be made after 21, also that a full international friendly didn't tie you to your first country.

This was at the instigation of African countries. They saw how many 1st generation emigrants to France, Belgium and Germany etc were getting capped at under-age level by their coutry of birth, but then failing to make it right the way up to senior "A" level (or maybe getting one or two friendly caps even before turning 21) before being discarded.

They might still be good enough to play for their ancestral home, but were tied. Iirc, the African nations staged a surprise vote at a FIFA AGM to push this through before UEFA could get organised to resist.

In fact I've just this  moment remembered, it was Freddie Kanoute's case which prompted the change:
"While playing for Lyon, Kanouté joined the French under-21 team.[13] After turning 21 in 1998, Kanouté was not called up for the French national squad in 2000, 2002, or 2004. In 2004, FIFA changed its rules to allow a footballer to play for the national team of the country in which his mother or father was born. Although eligible for either, Kanouté elected to play for Mali rather than for France."

Good shout territorial - imo It still seems that improvements could be made in this area however 
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