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Gabrieléire View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gabrieléire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 8:11am
I probably should know the answer to this but don’t. Me and my mates are out in Sydney, we were talking about if you stayed would you kids play for Ireland of Australia. All of us said Ireland obviously but with us being born in Belfast would they qualify? I know McClean etc all qualify for Ireland being born in the north but is it any different for 2nd generation? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 8:18am
No, you're indistinguishable from any other Irish citizen, you can pass your citizenship onto your kids.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gabrieléire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 8:21am
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

No, you're indistinguishable from any other Irish citizen, you can pass your citizenship onto your kids.

I’m a good few beers deep, I’m abit slow right now. So could they play for Ireland, yes or no LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zinedine Kilbane 110 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 8:32am
Originally posted by Gabrieléire Gabrieléire wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

No, you're indistinguishable from any other Irish citizen, you can pass your citizenship onto your kids.

I’m a good few beers deep, I’m abit slow right now. So could they play for Ireland, yes or no LOL

YES

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 9:54am
Yes, and your grandkids, just like the rest of us.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The White Cafu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 10:08am
Originally posted by Gabrieléire Gabrieléire wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

No, you're indistinguishable from any other Irish citizen, you can pass your citizenship onto your kids.

I’m a good few beers deep, I’m abit slow right now. So could they play for Ireland, yes or no LOL

Posted at 8.20 LOLLOL Some life

.. Nevermind


Edited by The White Cafu - 11 Jan 2019 at 10:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by Gabrieléire Gabrieléire wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

No, you're indistinguishable from any other Irish citizen, you can pass your citizenship onto your kids.

I’m a good few beers deep, I’m abit slow right now. So could they play for Ireland, yes or no LOL
Possibly "yes", possibly "no".

Anyone born outside of Ireland to a parent(s) from either part of Ireland is automatically an Irish national from birth and therefore entitled to be selected by the FAI.

However, afaik someone born outside Ireland who relies on an Irish-born grandparent(s) is certainly automatically entitled to Irish nationality, but may not actually be an Irish national until the point at which he/she is entered onto the Register of Foreign Births.

Should that be so, then FIFA may consider this person to be "acquiring a new nationality" (i.e. other than that the country of birth eg Australia, UK etc). And FIFA's rules are clear that for anyone acquiring a new nationality, the grandparent would have to have been born on the territory of the new Association which the grandchild wishes to represent. Therefore if the grandparent(s) was born in NI, then the relevant association would be the IFA, not the FAI.

I should add that I'm by no means certain about this, and although there may have been one or two individuals capped by the FAI at under-age level who did not satisfy this test (Adam Barton?), they may have been an oversight?

In any case, I'm pretty sure it has never been tested at "A" (senior) international level, for a competitive game at least.


Edited by Territorial - 11 Jan 2019 at 12:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lassassinblanc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Gabrieléire Gabrieléire wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

No, you're indistinguishable from any other Irish citizen, you can pass your citizenship onto your kids.

I’m a good few beers deep, I’m abit slow right now. So could they play for Ireland, yes or no LOL
Possibly "yes", possibly "no".

Anyone born outside of Ireland to a parent(s) from either part of Ireland is automatically an Irish national from birth and therefore entitled to be selected by the FAI.

However, afaik someone born outside Ireland who relies on an Irish-born grandparent(s) is certainly automatically entitled to Irish nationality, but may not actually be an Irish national until the point at which he/she is entered onto the Register of Foreign Births.

Should that be so, then FIFA may consider this person to be "acquiring a new nationality" (i.e. other than that the country of birth eg Australia, UK etc). And FIFA's rules are clear that for anyone acquiring a new nationality, the grandparent would have to have been born on the territory of the new Association which the grandchild wishes to represent. Therefore if the grandparent(s) was born in NI, then the relevant association would be the IFA, not the FAI.

I should add that I'm by no means certain about this, and although there may have been one or two individuals capped by the FAI at under-age level who did not satisfy this test (Adam Barton?), they may have been an oversight?

In any case, I'm pretty sure it has never been tested at "A" (senior) international level, for a competitive game at least.


Even if the said grandparent had an Irish Passport?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Gabrieléire Gabrieléire wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

No, you're indistinguishable from any other Irish citizen, you can pass your citizenship onto your kids.

I’m a good few beers deep, I’m abit slow right now. So could they play for Ireland, yes or no LOL
Possibly "yes", possibly "no".

Anyone born outside of Ireland to a parent(s) from either part of Ireland is automatically an Irish national from birth and therefore entitled to be selected by the FAI.

However, afaik someone born outside Ireland who relies on an Irish-born grandparent(s) is certainly automatically entitled to Irish nationality, but may not actually be an Irish national until the point at which he/she is entered onto the Register of Foreign Births.

Should that be so, then FIFA may consider this person to be "acquiring a new nationality" (i.e. other than that the country of birth eg Australia, UK etc). And FIFA's rules are clear that for anyone acquiring a new nationality, the grandparent would have to have been born on the territory of the new Association which the grandchild wishes to represent. Therefore if the grandparent(s) was born in NI, then the relevant association would be the IFA, not the FAI.

I should add that I'm by no means certain about this, and although there may have been one or two individuals capped by the FAI at under-age level who did not satisfy this test (Adam Barton?), they may have been an oversight?

In any case, I'm pretty sure it has never been tested at "A" (senior) international level, for a competitive game at least.

There's no "possibly" about this. We went through it ad infinitum around a year ago and definitive evidence was provided to you repeatedly by both myself and Danny Invincible which you simply chose not to accept... Your refusal to accept it does not change the finality of the evidence, however, no matter how much you might wish it did.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by lassassinblanc lassassinblanc wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Gabrieléire Gabrieléire wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

No, you're indistinguishable from any other Irish citizen, you can pass your citizenship onto your kids.

I’m a good few beers deep, I’m abit slow right now. So could they play for Ireland, yes or no LOL
Possibly "yes", possibly "no".

Anyone born outside of Ireland to a parent(s) from either part of Ireland is automatically an Irish national from birth and therefore entitled to be selected by the FAI.

However, afaik someone born outside Ireland who relies on an Irish-born grandparent(s) is certainly automatically entitled to Irish nationality, but may not actually be an Irish national until the point at which he/she is entered onto the Register of Foreign Births.

Should that be so, then FIFA may consider this person to be "acquiring a new nationality" (i.e. other than that the country of birth eg Australia, UK etc). And FIFA's rules are clear that for anyone acquiring a new nationality, the grandparent would have to have been born on the territory of the new Association which the grandchild wishes to represent. Therefore if the grandparent(s) was born in NI, then the relevant association would be the IFA, not the FAI.

I should add that I'm by no means certain about this, and although there may have been one or two individuals capped by the FAI at under-age level who did not satisfy this test (Adam Barton?), they may have been an oversight?

In any case, I'm pretty sure it has never been tested at "A" (senior) international level, for a competitive game at least.


Even if the said grandparent had an Irish Passport?
Except we're not talking about capping the grandparent here!

Of course such a grandparent's nationality confers the right for the grandchild to acquire an Irish passport. 

But mere possession of a passport does not in itself confer eligibility to represent an Association. 

For example, the last major revision of the eligibility rules by FIFA followed on from the governments of Qatar and Cape Verde etc giving out passports to Brazilian footballers who weren't quite good enough to play for the country of their birth, but who would certainly have been good enough to represent their "new" country.

The point being that these passports were acquired perfectly legally (if cynically).


Edited by Territorial - 11 Jan 2019 at 1:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Should that be so, then FIFA may consider this person to be "acquiring a new nationality" (i.e. other than that the country of birth eg Australia, UK etc). And FIFA's rules are clear that for anyone acquiring a new nationality, the grandparent would have to have been born on the territory of the new Association which the grandchild wishes to represent. Therefore if the grandparent(s) was born in NI, then the relevant association would be the IFA, not the FAI.

I should add that I'm by no means certain about this, and although there may have been one or two individuals capped by the FAI at under-age level who did not satisfy this test (Adam Barton?), they may have been an oversight?

In any case, I'm pretty sure it has never been tested at "A" (senior) international level, for a competitive game at least.

There's no "possibly" about this. We went through it ad infinitum around a year ago and definitive evidence was provided to you repeatedly by both myself and Danny Invincible which you simply chose not to accept... Your refusal to accept it does not change the finality of the evidence, however, no matter how much you might wish it did.
Unless you can point to a clear flaw in my argument; or you can point to a specific adjudication; or until it is properly tested by an actual example, you cannot claim that it is "definitive".

I am saying it could still go either way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 2:50pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Should that be so, then FIFA may consider this person to be "acquiring a new nationality" (i.e. other than that the country of birth eg Australia, UK etc). And FIFA's rules are clear that for anyone acquiring a new nationality, the grandparent would have to have been born on the territory of the new Association which the grandchild wishes to represent. Therefore if the grandparent(s) was born in NI, then the relevant association would be the IFA, not the FAI.

I should add that I'm by no means certain about this, and although there may have been one or two individuals capped by the FAI at under-age level who did not satisfy this test (Adam Barton?), they may have been an oversight?

In any case, I'm pretty sure it has never been tested at "A" (senior) international level, for a competitive game at least.

There's no "possibly" about this. We went through it ad infinitum around a year ago and definitive evidence was provided to you repeatedly by both myself and Danny Invincible which you simply chose not to accept... Your refusal to accept it does not change the finality of the evidence, however, no matter how much you might wish it did.
Unless you can point to a clear flaw in my argument; or you can point to a specific adjudication; or until it is properly tested by an actual example, you cannot claim that it is "definitive".

I am saying it could still go either way.

UPDATE:

Is there another "Danny Invincible" out there? Or has your DI changed his tune since October 2017?

For here is what he posted on another site, wrt Conor Tee of Leicester City, son of an English-born mother, whose own mother (CT's grandmother) was Mayo-born (my emphasis):

From Danny Invincibile Mk.I - 
[Conor's] uncle's statement is technically correct. He's quoted as saying:

"[Conor] wants to play for Ireland and the Leicester Under 18 manager has been in contact with the FAI. If he was to play, he would actually qualify through his granny as Maureen [his mother] was born in England before we moved home not long after."

Tee's mother is an automatic Irish national from birth on account of the fact that she was born to Irish citizens who were born in Ireland - I don't think the uncle is denying that - but as she herself was not born in Ireland, Tee's birth would have to be registered in the Foreign Births Register for him to acquire Irish citizenship. The article 7 criteria would apply to him then as he isn't a national from birth and the only criterion he satisfies is 7(c), relating to grandparentage from the territory of the relevant association.

(See also Article 7, page 71, of the relevant FIFA Regulations: https://resources.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/generic/02/78/29/07/fifastatutsweben_neutral.pdf )


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 3:47pm
Well, on Gabriel's point, his kids would be eligible to play for Ireland, undoubtedly. Gabriel is (presumably) an Irish citizen born in Ireland (on the island). As such, his kids are automatically eligible. It doesn't matter where on the island Gabriel is born.

I appreciate there is a gray area if Gabriel's *grandkids* rather than his *kids* (the original question) wanted to play for Ireland *and* if Gabriel was born in Northern Ireland. That specific matter has not been tested (that is, a person whose only link to Ireland is a grandparent Irish citizen who was born in Northern Ireland). That is the O'Shea's question, and is as yet unanswered, afaik. However, a person born to *parents* who are Irish citizens who were born in Northern Ireland is eligible, and automatically a citizen, given that those people are citizens from birth who do not have to register on the foreign births register.


Edited by SuperDave84 - 11 Jan 2019 at 3:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Denis Irwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

Well, on Gabriel's point, his kids would be eligible to play for Ireland, undoubtedly. Gabriel is (presumably) an Irish citizen born in Ireland (on the island). As such, his kids are automatically eligible. It doesn't matter where on the island Gabriel is born.

I appreciate there is a gray area if Gabriel's *grandkids* rather than his *kids* (the original question) wanted to play for Ireland *and* if Gabriel was born in Northern Ireland. That specific matter has not been tested (that is, a person whose only link to Ireland is a grandparent Irish citizen who was born in Northern Ireland). That much is correct. However, a person born to *parents* who are Irish citizens who were born in Northern Ireland is eligible, and automatically a citizen, given that those people are citizens from birth who do not have to register on the foreign births register.


Alex Bruce (Even if he did switch to the North) Granny was from Down IIRC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 3:51pm
Originally posted by Denis Irwin Denis Irwin wrote:

Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

Well, on Gabriel's point, his kids would be eligible to play for Ireland, undoubtedly. Gabriel is (presumably) an Irish citizen born in Ireland (on the island). As such, his kids are automatically eligible. It doesn't matter where on the island Gabriel is born.

I appreciate there is a gray area if Gabriel's *grandkids* rather than his *kids* (the original question) wanted to play for Ireland *and* if Gabriel was born in Northern Ireland. That specific matter has not been tested (that is, a person whose only link to Ireland is a grandparent Irish citizen who was born in Northern Ireland). That much is correct. However, a person born to *parents* who are Irish citizens who were born in Northern Ireland is eligible, and automatically a citizen, given that those people are citizens from birth who do not have to register on the foreign births register.


Alex Bruce (Even if he did switch to the North) Granny was from Down IIRC


Correct. However, I believe the FIFA eligibility criteria were changed after his friendly appearances, and players from before then were presumably grandfathered in (excuse the use of grandfather here, everyone knows what a grandfather clause is).

Edit: actually the FIFA rules were changed in 2004 and Alex Bruce played for Ireland first in February 2006. Dunno how that happened.


Edited by SuperDave84 - 11 Jan 2019 at 3:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

Well, on Gabriel's point, his kids would be eligible to play for Ireland, undoubtedly. Gabriel is (presumably) an Irish citizen born in Ireland (on the island). As such, his kids are automatically eligible. It doesn't matter where on the island Gabriel is born.
Yes, you're right about Gabriel's kids being eligible for ROI and regardless of which part of the island he's from. (I misdirected myself following his reference to "2nd generation", which I took to mean the 2nd generation to be born outside Ireland. Also, The O'Shea's follow-up claim that Gabriel's children and grandchildren would be eligible.)

Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

I appreciate there is a gray area if Gabriel's *grandkids* rather than his *kids* (the original question) wanted to play for Ireland *and* if Gabriel was born in Northern Ireland. That specific matter has not been tested (that is, a person whose only link to Ireland is a grandparent Irish citizen who was born in Northern Ireland). That is the O'Shea's question, and is as yet unanswered, afaik.
I agree it is unanswered, and I wouldn't bet any money on it either way.

The O'Shea, however, seems certain that such grandkids are OK to represent ROI, not least because his mate Danny Invincibile thinks so.  (YBIG).

Or doesn't (foot.ie). Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

Originally posted by Denis Irwin Denis Irwin wrote:

Alex Bruce (Even if he did switch to the North) Granny was from Down IIRC


Correct. However, I believe the FIFA eligibility criteria were changed after his friendly appearances, and players from before then were presumably grandfathered in (excuse the use of grandfather here, everyone knows what a grandfather clause is).

Edit: actually the FIFA rules were changed in 2004 and Alex Bruce played for Ireland first in February 2006. Dunno how that happened.
Not sure how it happened myself.

But the possibility remains that the FAI initially got it wrong, thus explaining why he never got a competitive* cap, only in friendlies. 


* - Any Association may pick whoever they like for friendlies, but aren't ever going to select someone who they know is not eligible for competitive games, for obvious reasons.


Edited by Territorial - 11 Jan 2019 at 4:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Should that be so, then FIFA may consider this person to be "acquiring a new nationality" (i.e. other than that the country of birth eg Australia, UK etc). And FIFA's rules are clear that for anyone acquiring a new nationality, the grandparent would have to have been born on the territory of the new Association which the grandchild wishes to represent. Therefore if the grandparent(s) was born in NI, then the relevant association would be the IFA, not the FAI.

I should add that I'm by no means certain about this, and although there may have been one or two individuals capped by the FAI at under-age level who did not satisfy this test (Adam Barton?), they may have been an oversight?

In any case, I'm pretty sure it has never been tested at "A" (senior) international level, for a competitive game at least.

There's no "possibly" about this. We went through it ad infinitum around a year ago and definitive evidence was provided to you repeatedly by both myself and Danny Invincible which you simply chose not to accept... Your refusal to accept it does not change the finality of the evidence, however, no matter how much you might wish it did.
Unless you can point to a clear flaw in my argument; or you can point to a specific adjudication; or until it is properly tested by an actual example, you cannot claim that it is "definitive".

I am saying it could still go either way.

The clear flaw(s) in your argument were tirelessly laid out for you already, you still chose to ignore them. The easiest way to sum it up is with two simple examples; Alex Bruce and Adam Barton.
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