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Liam Brady
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2017 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

That'd be one hell of an inconvenience to put himself at just to put 2 fingers up to an U-17 manager I would have thought, but who knows.


He's from a catholic background, apparenty - for want of a better way of phrasing it - and has grandparents in Donegal
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2017 at 5:40pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Bruce came through our underage system, and more than that represented us at senior level, not only in friendlies but also taking his place in competitive match-day squads.

Apple, meet apple.
Bruce was not born in ROI, nor was he ever wanted by the country he was born in.

And when he later switched to NI, he was no longer wanted by you.

Whereas with the likes of McClean, not only was he wanted (then at least) by NI, but he had just been called up to the senior NI squad for a competitive fixture - AND ACCEPTED - when Sunderland came calling, this latter precipitating an approach by the FAI.

Apple meet Bullsh*t.

P.S. How did Bruce "come through your underage system"? Wacko

He was born in Norwich and brought up in Manchester, where he attended the United Academy, before joining Blackburn's Youth team.
Thereafter he gained a handful of ROI U-21 caps and a 'B' cap in 2006, before being tried out in a couple of senior friendlies the following year.
"Came through" indeed... LOL


Edited by Territorial - 07 Nov 2017 at 5:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2017 at 5:47pm
Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

 Alex Bruce jumped from the ROI to NI.
Bruce is English.

Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Pot and kettle etc...
Apples and pears more like.


He's born in the same place that Washington, Ward and a number of others are from.

The fact is he was a ROI player and then got poached by the IFA to play for NI.

There is nothing to dispute here.

He was born and developed in England, but being unwanted by them, he was offered a second international chance by both ROI and NI. He chose ROI. Then when his chance with ROI evaporated, he reverted to NI.

At no stage was any of the three Associations unfairly denied the services of a player they might otherwise have wanted.

Therefore his example is nothing like the ones we are discussing i.e. Bruce is a Straw Man.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DUBLIN DOC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2017 at 5:49pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Bruce came through our underage system, and more than that represented us at senior level, not only in friendlies but also taking his place in competitive match-day squads.

Apple, meet apple.
Bruce was not born in ROI, nor was he ever wanted by the country he was born in.

And when he later switched to NI, he was no longer wanted by you.

Whereas with the likes of McClean, not only was he wanted (then at least) by NI, but he had just been called up to the senior NI squad for a competitive fixture - AND ACCEPTED - when Sunderland came calling, this latter precipitating an approach by the FAI.

Apple meet Bullsh*t.
Good on the FAI rescuing a true Irishman from the bear's pit Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2017 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by keith3307 keith3307 wrote:

Dale Gorman of Stevenage was born in Donegal but plays for Norths under21s. Theres an Irish born example.
Afaik, Gorman qualifies for his "other" country via a grandparent, the same as loads of other footballers from around the world eg Shane Duffy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2017 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by Donegalman Donegalman wrote:

Originally posted by greenmachine68 greenmachine68 wrote:

Originally posted by keith3307 keith3307 wrote:

Dale Gorman of Stevenage was born in Donegal but plays for Norths under21s. Theres an Irish born example.

Yes his da is Anthony, ex Ireland youth played with Sligo etc.from what I hear anthony threw a huff when his lad wasn't a guarenteed starter. But fair play the lads over the water now, good luck to him!
From what I know he wasn't just born in Donegal but he lived in Letterkenny until he moved to play with Stevenage.
Gorman has played for us at U-17, U-19 and U-21 level, inc Milk Cup etc, so he hardly someone we just "snatched on a cross-border raid".

On top of which, he's still entitled to switch to ROI if you wanted. Or he wanted.


Edited by Territorial - 07 Nov 2017 at 6:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2017 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by DUBLIN DOC DUBLIN DOC wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Bruce came through our underage system, and more than that represented us at senior level, not only in friendlies but also taking his place in competitive match-day squads.

Apple, meet apple.
Bruce was not born in ROI, nor was he ever wanted by the country he was born in.

And when he later switched to NI, he was no longer wanted by you.

Whereas with the likes of McClean, not only was he wanted (then at least) by NI, but he had just been called up to the senior NI squad for a competitive fixture - AND ACCEPTED - when Sunderland came calling, this latter precipitating an approach by the FAI.

Apple meet Bullsh*t.
Good on the FAI rescuing a true Irishman from the bear's pit Clap
Bears never were fond of snakes...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2017 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Bruce came through our underage system, and more than that represented us at senior level, not only in friendlies but also taking his place in competitive match-day squads.

Apple, meet apple.
Bruce was not born in ROI, nor was he ever wanted by the country he was born in.

And when he later switched to NI, he was no longer wanted by you.

Whereas with the likes of McClean, not only was he wanted (then at least) by NI, but he had just been called up to the senior NI squad for a competitive fixture - AND ACCEPTED - when Sunderland came calling, this latter precipitating an approach by the FAI.

Apple meet Bullsh*t.

P.S. How did Bruce "come through your underage system"? Wacko

He was born in Norwich and brought up in Manchester, where he attended the United Academy, before joining Blackburn's Youth team.
Thereafter he gained a handful of ROI U-21 caps and a 'B' cap in 2006, before being tried out in a couple of senior friendlies the following year.
"Came through" indeed... LOL



It is irrelevant where Bruce or any other player was born, it's also irrelevant "who wanted them", it's only relevant who they were eligible for and what choice they themselves made.

Bruce played at U-21 and "B" level for Ireland, so he has more of a claim to having been brought through the FAI system than many Irish-born guys who were never a part of our underage squads. (In truth, national associations play f*ck all part in a players development anyway, 99% of the work is done by their clubs; yet another reason why NI's moaning about "developing" the likes of McClean is horse sh*te).

The claim that Bruce was "not wanted" by Ireland, whereas McClean was by NI, is not only redundant, but demonstrably incorrect. He had already played a number of games for us, and been included in competitive match day squads, which clearly illustrates he was deemed of at least reasonable usefulness. More than that, there is no way you can know that he would not have been chosen by the Ireland management again in the future; indeed when he was starting regularly for Hull in the EPL he probably would have received another call up.

So no, there is absolutely no difference between the two situations, they are directly comparable. The only differences you perceive are as a result of your own persecution complex and latent bigotry against the Irish team.
We're decent enough..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djhegzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2017 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by keith3307 keith3307 wrote:

Dale Gorman of Stevenage was born in Donegal but plays for Norths under21s. Theres an Irish born example.
Afaik, Gorman qualifies for his "other" country via a grandparent, the same as loads of other footballers from around the world eg Shane Duffy.
as far as I know Duffy was born in Letterkenny actually, moved to derry when young, know his fathers from there too, so no, not the same as duffy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deco911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2017 at 3:55pm
2 for Callum Wilson today any more of his citizenship?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeclanDaly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2017 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by deco911 deco911 wrote:

2 for Callum Wilson today any more of his citizenship?


Not eligible. O’Neill was mistaken
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Conan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2017 at 2:34am
Originally posted by djhegzy djhegzy wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by keith3307 keith3307 wrote:

Dale Gorman of Stevenage was born in Donegal but plays for Norths under21s. Theres an Irish born example.
Afaik, Gorman qualifies for his "other" country via a grandparent, the same as loads of other footballers from around the world eg Shane Duffy.
as far as I know Duffy was born in Letterkenny actually, moved to derry when young, know his fathers from there too, so no, not the same as duffy
No I'm from LetterK and Duffy is not one of us, he's a Derry boy, though his Dad was from Donegal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danny Invincible Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2017 at 1:32am
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Bruce was not born in ROI, nor was he ever wanted by the country he was born in.

And when he later switched to NI, he was no longer wanted by you.


Why are you fixated on Bruce's place of birth? What's its relevance or significance, insofar as he was eligible to play for us regardless?

And who in the FAI ever declared him "surplus to requirements" or "no longer wanted"? Trapattoni certainly didn't. Non-selection of a particular player at a certain point in time cannot be assumed to equate to even an implicit declaration of future and permanent disinterest in that player. Bruce may have been called upon by an Ireland manager again in the future, had he remained available for selection. We simply don't know, so you're not in a position to say he was "no longer wanted" by us. He was always an option - at least as back-up - so long as he remained available for selection and may well have proved useful had there been a defensive injury crisis or had his form or ability improved.  

It's impossible to quantify a player's potential future value or utility to an association. Keith Andrews, for example, received his first senior cap for Ireland at the age of 28 after having last played for our under-17s. He was a late bloomer. For the sake of argument, let's say he also happened to be eligible to play for a second association, would you have been able to say that he was "no longer wanted" by the FAI when he was aged, say, 27 simply because he hadn't been selected by the FAI for a decade? Evidently not, seeing as he went on to become an integral part of our midfield under Trap. 

Quote Whereas with the likes of McClean, not only was he wanted (then at least) by NI, but he had just been called up to the senior NI squad for a competitive fixture - AND ACCEPTED - when Sunderland came calling, this latter precipitating an approach by the FAI.


In an appearance on 'The Late Late Show' in March of 2012, Niall Quinn (who was chairman of Sunderland when they bought McClean) stated very clearly that the expressed will to play for Ireland came from McClean's side first and foremost and that Quinn had then contacted the FAI on the player's behalf to alert the FAI to McClean's ambition to play for Ireland.

It doesn't matter if the IFA wanted McClean. McClean didn't want to continue playing with the IFA, as was his choice. He was as entitled as any other player to retire from playing for the IFA - after, all, the IFA didn't own him - and he was free to switch to the FAI if he wished. Once again, this was his legitimate entitlement as an Irish national and in accordance with FIFA's regulations. Nationality is the foundation of national teams; not location of birth.

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

[Bruce] was born and developed in England, but being unwanted by them, he was offered a second international chance by both ROI and NI. He chose ROI. Then when his chance with ROI evaporated, he reverted to NI.

At no stage was any of the three Associations unfairly denied the services of a player they might otherwise have wanted.

Therefore his example is nothing like the ones we are discussing i.e. Bruce is a Straw Man.
 

What exactly do you mean by "unfairly denied"? If a player doesn't want to play for an association, that's not unfair; it's simply that player's choice. Deal with it and accept that player's agency and right to opt not to play.

The logical conclusion of your position appears to be that you think players should be forced to line out for associations for whom they don't actually wish to play. And, oddly, it's only Irish nationals that you ever appear to harp on about. Do you pester England fans about how "unfair" it was that Dominic Ball switched from the IFA to the FA? If not, why not?

Y'see, when the logical conclusion of your position is established, it exposes the bigoted and dictatorial imperiousness (with which nationalists in the north, of course, have long been familiar) that underpins it. You're an intolerant, unreconstructed dinosaur who clearly still hasn't come to terms with the validity of the Irish nationality (and the rights that that carries with it) of Irish nationals born in the north.

For what it's worth, are you aware that Michael O'Neill attempted to persuade Sean Scannell (a player has played for us from under-17 level up to 'B' level) to switch to the IFA a mere four months after he'd last represented our under-21s?

Also, the IFA selected Oliver Norwood (who played for England at under-age level) despite the FA still wanting him. And what about Worthington chasing after Connor Wickham whilst the player was an England under-17 international? Wickham has gone on to represent England at under-19 level and under-21 (on 4 and 17 occasions, respectively). The IFA also tried to encourage Paddy McEleney to switch from the FAI to the IFA despite Noel King still having plans for the player.

McEleney didn't eventually go through with the switch, but please let's not pretend that the IFA have been"above" chasing after players who've still been in the immediate demand of their original association or that the IFA are "above" selecting players for whom other associations may otherwise have plans were those players to decide to remain where they were originally. The IFA behave just like any other association - in furtherance of their own interests - as they're entitled to do. This pretence of moral superiority is just so utterly tiresome. We've been pointing out your hypocrisy for years now.

Edited by Danny Invincible - 20 Nov 2017 at 1:44am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeclanDaly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2017 at 2:59pm
Former youth international Reise Allassani set to sign Dulwich Hamlet deal but could get snapped up by Championship clubs. Only 21.

https://www.londonnewsonline.co.uk/reise-allassani-set-to-sign-dulwich-hamlet-deal-but-heavy-championship-interest-in-attacker/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeclanDaly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2017 at 5:23pm
Shayne Lavery is on the bench for Everton in Europe today. NI U21 international. Harry Charsley starts at left back.

Quite a day for young prospects in green and blue:

Also on the bench is a young CB named Michael Collins! A new one on me, but he’s eligible according to his Everton profile:

http://www.evertonfc.com/players/m/mc/michael-collins

Also eligible is winger Stephen Duke-McKenna: http://www.evertonfc.com/players/s/sm/stephen-duke-mckenna

GK Mateus Hewelt is also on the bench. He’s eligible, Dublin raised, and possibly declared for us last year.

Edited by DeclanDaly - 07 Dec 2017 at 5:31pm
You asked if I'd be anyone from history, fact or fiction, dead or alive:
I said "I'd be Tony Cascarino, circa 1995"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grannyrule Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2017 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by DeclanDaly DeclanDaly wrote:

Shayne Lavery is on the bench for Everton in Europe today. NI U21 international. Harry Charsley starts at left back.

Also on the bench is a young CB named Michael Collins! A new one on me, but he’s eligible according to his Everton profile:

http://www.evertonfc.com/players/m/mc/michael-collins

Stephen Duke-McKenna on the Everton bench is also eligible.
 
According to the Everton website he is a skillful left winger who was born in Liverpool but is eligible to play for Guyana, Holland and Republic of Ireland, as well as England.

edit : I see you edited your post DeclanWink


Edited by grannyrule - 07 Dec 2017 at 5:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2017 at 6:31pm
There's a huge amount of players in Everton's youth ranks who are either Irish or eligible for us, Charsley, Kinsella, Hewelt, Dowell, Duke-McKenna, Collins off the top of my head.
We're decent enough..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 10:08am
Niall Maher, 18 year old Morecambe goalkeeper.
Eoin McKeown, 19 year old Colchester striker.
We're decent enough..
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