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Players eligible for Ireland

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The O'Shea View Drop Down
Jack Charlton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

" you're too dense to interpret it" , "what the f*ck are you on about" 

O'Shea, you wouldn't say something like that to my face, so it's odd you'd say something like that online. 

I don't think this should be a forum for abusive content.   

As regards the substance of the point - there are literally reams and reams of law on the difference between citizenship and nationality.  It's a millenia-old concept that goes back to the time of the Greeks and Romans.  

As I said in 99.9% of the cases they will be the same thing in practice, so there will be no difference in practice, which is why the cases correlate. But the principle is different and that may have relevance to the 0.1% of cases like the peculiar Irish citizenship laws.  

Read the Economist article for a summary - I won't try enlighten you any further, O'Shea.

Regarding a purposive approach to interpretation - I don't think you know about what this is other than snippets you've read on the internet.  

It's not something that generally exists to create a completely contradictory result to the words - which would be the case here: it is a fact that Johansson and Crowley were not citizens when they played underage for Lux/Eng.  There is no way of getting around that fact. 





No, you really are just dense. I don't need to read the Economist article because as I've repeatedly said, I am aware that there is an arguable semantic difference between the two. In practice, however, this semantic difference is rarely acknowledged and the terms are used entirely interchangeably (ie it is commonly understood that an Irish national and Irish citizen are exactly the same thing). As far as FIFA are concerned, an Irish national is synonymous with being an Irish citizen and vice versa, this is what literally every shred of evidence points towards and it is (when you think about it) the only sensible way to determine if someone is a "national". Overwhelming evidence against your argument has never stopped you before though, so I don't expect it will stop you this time either.
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Liam Brady
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 4:48pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Is there any concern that for Crowley, the problem is he has exhausted his one FIFA switch and so isn't eligible?

e.g.: the same as Jack Grealish's situation - still not capped competitively for England, but can never become eligible for Ireland again (even if he or we wanted) as you're only allowed the one switch at FIFA age-grade?

It has nothing to do with FIFA recognised age grades, its about FIFA recognised fixtures. He has never played in a FIFA recognised fixture for Ireland, only England. If he'd played competitively for us both it wouldn't even be a question over his eligibility, he would cut and dry simply be ineligible. 

Yes, I see he has played at two age-grades for Ireland U16 and U17, each time switching to England.  However the U16 and U17 Ireland caps were purely friendlies, whereas he got U17 and U19 competitive (FiFA recognised) caps for England.  

So he still has a switch in him. 

Which would possibly put him in the same situation as Johansson - though presumably Crowley would have had registered with the DOFA and got the passport situation sorted out before that i.e.: when he played U16 for Ireland and had yet to play competitively for England (though he had already played a friendly for England at U16)...

So he may have had an Irish passport when he made his competitive England debut - which would make him different to Johansson...

Not entirely clear!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Conan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 4:51pm
Neither Johansson or presumably Crowley are eligible to transfer according to the statutes, regardless of anybody's personal interpretation of what is 'absurd' according to their personal (some may say extremely touchy) emotions on the subject. Its pretty clear cut.
However give that FIFA have already probably disregarded these rules to clear Robinson to play for us and possibly done the same for the benefit of other granny rule practitioners such as Algeria then they can't easily disallow Johansson and Crowley from switching on this basis or else you'd have a situation where all our qualifying results could be declared invalid on the basis of the use of a technically ineligible player  in Robinson and can't see FIFA/UEFA opening that potential can of worms.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 4:56pm
Originally posted by Conan Conan wrote:

Neither Johansson or presumably Crowley are eligible to transfer according to the statutes, regardless of anybody's personal interpretation of what is 'absurd' according to their personal (some may say extremely touchy) emotions on the subject. Its pretty clear cut.
However give that FIFA have already probably disregarded these rules to clear Robinson to play for us and possibly done the same for the benefit of other granny rule practitioners such as Algeria then they can't easily disallow Johansson and Crowley from switching on this basis or else you'd have a situation where all our qualifying results could be declared invalid on the basis of the use of a technically ineligible player  in Robinson and can't see FIFA/UEFA opening that potential can of worms.

"Absurd" in this case is a legal term used to explain the use of the purposive opposed to the literal approach, there is nothing emotional or personal about it. The belief that anything in the legal world is "clear cut" is absurd in the regular sense of the word however, and tends to only be asserted by those who have no knowledge of legal interpretation and processes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

" you're too dense to interpret it" , "what the f*ck are you on about" 

O'Shea, you wouldn't say something like that to my face, so it's odd you'd say something like that online. 

I don't think this should be a forum for abusive content.   

As regards the substance of the point - there are literally reams and reams of law on the difference between citizenship and nationality.  It's a millenia-old concept that goes back to the time of the Greeks and Romans.  

As I said in 99.9% of the cases they will be the same thing in practice, so there will be no difference in practice, which is why the cases correlate. But the principle is different and that may have relevance to the 0.1% of cases like the peculiar Irish citizenship laws.  

Read the Economist article for a summary - I won't try enlighten you any further, O'Shea.

Regarding a purposive approach to interpretation - I don't think you know about what this is other than snippets you've read on the internet.  

It's not something that generally exists to create a completely contradictory result to the words - which would be the case here: it is a fact that Johansson and Crowley were not citizens when they played underage for Lux/Eng.  There is no way of getting around that fact. 





No, you really are just dense. I don't need to read the Economist article because as I've repeatedly said, I am aware that there is an arguable semantic difference between the two. In practice, however, this semantic difference is rarely acknowledged and the terms are used entirely interchangeably (ie it is commonly understood that an Irish national and Irish citizen are exactly the same thing). As far as FIFA are concerned, an Irish national is synonymous with being an Irish citizen and vice versa, this is what literally every shred of evidence points towards and it is (when you think about it) the only sensible way to determine if someone is a "national". Overwhelming evidence against your argument has never stopped you before though, so I don't expect it will stop you this time either.

It's a subtle distinction, not just a semantic distinction, well-recognised for millenia in law, but rarely raises its head, because of the huge overlap.

You haven't read the Economist article (which is really just a brief summary of loads of different law on this issue throughout the world), so you've literally closed your eyes to the reality and made things up. 

How else can you explain that a person born in American Samoa is has American nationality but is not an American citizen?  It used to be, until Congress changed it, that a person born in Puerto Rico had American nationality, but was not an American citizen.  

How do you explain that a person born in British Virgin Islands or Montserrat has British nationality, but is not a British citizen?

Anyway, I'm not going to educate you any further on a millenia-established and accepted point of law. 

You've made something up (i.e.: that citizenship =  nationality) in FIFA and have literally not produced one shred of evidence where FIFA say this is the case.  All you can point to is the 99.9% of cases where they will predictably, in practice, be the same thing.  Johansson's case may be the 0.1%.  


  



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2019 at 5:03pm
Conor Gallagher wins the EFL's Young Player of the Month award:  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2019 at 5:08pm
Fifa rules are a shambles.

Ansu Fati lives in Spain 9 years, gets given Spanish citizenship and should now be available to line out for spain. No real ties to the country, just lived there...

Johansson or Crowley actually have ties to Ireland, needs to be reviewed as they played in some underage games for another team... which is something lots of players have done.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2019 at 5:15pm
Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Fifa rules are a shambles.

Ansu Fati lives in Spain 9 years, gets given Spanish citizenship and should now be available to line out for spain. No real ties to the country, just lived there...

Johansson or Crowley actually have ties to Ireland, needs to be reviewed as they played in some underage games for another team... which is something lots of players have done.

Yes, and the English FA would be loving an adverse decision against us on Johansson/Crowley - it would mean that they'd just have to cap lads at youth level - and if the lad hadn't sorted out their passport - they would be ineligible for us.  

Meanwhile if they cap a lad with Welsh eligibility it makes no difference, because the kid is "British" and so he can still line out for Wales. 

So absurdly, even though Wales isn't even a country - and their inclusion in FIFA really just a historical anomaly -  they get easier eligibility rules than the rest of us. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErsatzThistle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2019 at 5:48pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:


So absurdly, even though Wales isn't even a country - and their inclusion in FIFA really just a historical anomaly -  they get easier eligibility rules than the rest of us. 

Wales is a country and it has been since the mid-11th Century.

What exactly makes you an expert judge of whether or not they are a country ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2019 at 5:58pm
Originally posted by ErsatzThistle ErsatzThistle wrote:

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:


So absurdly, even though Wales isn't even a country - and their inclusion in FIFA really just a historical anomaly -  they get easier eligibility rules than the rest of us. 

Wales is a country and it has been since the mid-11th Century.

What exactly makes you an expert judge of whether or not they are a country ?

LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2019 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by ErsatzThistle ErsatzThistle wrote:

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:


So absurdly, even though Wales isn't even a country - and their inclusion in FIFA really just a historical anomaly -  they get easier eligibility rules than the rest of us. 

Wales is a country and it has been since the mid-11th Century.

What exactly makes you an expert judge of whether or not they are a country ?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2019 at 6:14pm
I'm looking forward to the Doc's response to the post. 

He loves a shoite talk and this is the best whopper in a while.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeclanDaly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2019 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Fifa rules are a shambles.

Ansu Fati lives in Spain 9 years, gets given Spanish citizenship and should now be available to line out for spain. No real ties to the country, just lived there...

Johansson or Crowley actually have ties to Ireland, needs to be reviewed as they played in some underage games for another team... which is something lots of players have done.

I have a lot less issue with Fati than I do with the cap-a-Brazilian approach if they’ve played in a country for 5 years. Fati was raised in Spain throughout his childhood, so has a tangible connection.

One thing that hasn’t been picked up much: Niall Quinn suggested in his LOI plan would benefit us because we could naturalize foreign players coming in. That’s maddening 
You asked if I'd be anyone from history, fact or fiction, dead or alive:
I said "I'd be Tony Cascarino, circa 1995"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 50%lesssugar&salt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2019 at 6:49pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Conor Gallagher wins the EFL's Young Player of the Month award:  

And Frank Lampard took a dump this morning..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2019 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by DeclanDaly DeclanDaly wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Fifa rules are a shambles.

Ansu Fati lives in Spain 9 years, gets given Spanish citizenship and should now be available to line out for spain. No real ties to the country, just lived there...

Johansson or Crowley actually have ties to Ireland, needs to be reviewed as they played in some underage games for another team... which is something lots of players have done.

I have a lot less issue with Fati than I do with the cap-a-Brazilian approach if they’ve played in a country for 5 years. Fati was raised in Spain throughout his childhood, so has a tangible connection.

One thing that hasn’t been picked up much: Niall Quinn suggested in his LOI plan would benefit us because we could naturalize foreign players coming in. That’s maddening 

C'mon Declandaly, I lived in Japan for 10 years, it doesn't make me Japanese this is no different. 

Its unlikely that at any point in history he has ties to Spain. 

Yet the Spanish government are expiditing his citizenship because of football.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2019 at 6:53pm
Originally posted by ErsatzThistle ErsatzThistle wrote:

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:


So absurdly, even though Wales isn't even a country - and their inclusion in FIFA really just a historical anomaly -  they get easier eligibility rules than the rest of us. 

Wales is a country and it has been since the mid-11th Century.

What exactly makes you an expert judge of whether or not they are a country ?

Ersatz, do you think the day is coming that Scotland will get its independence and become a proper country too?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErsatzThistle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2019 at 7:08pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:


Ersatz, do you think the day is coming that Scotland will get its independence and become a proper country too?

Oh, how highly original ! That wounds me deeply. Wilde and Shaw would no doubt salute your cutting wit. How will I ever recover ? 

So what makes you such an expert that you can make such an ignorant statement that Wales is not a country ? 

Have you authored many books or monographs on the subject ? What with you being a renowned expert and all that, then you surely must have done so.

Presumably Catalonia and Euskadi are not countries either in your excellencies learned opinion ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2019 at 7:11pm
Ersatz, remind us, how did Euskadi and Catalonia get on in the last Euro qualifiers?
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