You Boys in Green Homepage YBIG Shop
Forum Home Forum Home : International : Republic Of Ireland
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Players eligible for Ireland
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Players eligible for Ireland

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 262263264265266 273>
Author
Message
Luis Amor Rodriguez View Drop Down
Liam Brady
Liam Brady


Joined: 19 Sep 2016
Location: Harchester
Status: Offline
Points: 1121
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 9:41pm
Yes, I agree that a purposive approach is generally applied, as we've discussed elsewhere.  However that is difficult to apply if it is totally contradictory to the words of the law being interpreted. 

Sterling, Zaha, Cirkin etc have lived in England since they were young kids and are naturalised as nationals (i.e.: they all have British nationality), not just citizens as a result.  That is why they are eligible for a UK team (because of the Home Nations agreement, here to be eligible for England).  

As regards the other players, they have clearly been naturalised as "nationals" - acquired the "nationality" of that country.  In all of those cases, that will presumably also include them being citizens of the country, be entitled to vote etc.

But not everyone who is a national of a country, will be a citizen of that country (although that will usually be the case).  A person born in American Samoa has American nationality, but is not a U.S. citizen. 

It may be that Johanson has always had Irish nationality, but (up until recently) obviously was not an Irish citizen. 

Once again, what is the source of your contention that for FIFA, uniquely in the world, citizenship and nationality are the same thing? 
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
The O'Shea View Drop Down
Jack Charlton
Jack Charlton
Avatar
Spouter of Utter Nonsense

Joined: 16 Aug 2013
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 6452
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 9:55pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Yes, I agree that a purposive approach is generally applied, as we've discussed elsewhere.  However that is difficult to apply if it is totally contradictory to the words of the law being interpreted. 

Sterling, Zaha, Cirkin etc have lived in England since they were young kids and are naturalised as nationals (i.e.: they all have British nationality), not just citizens as a result.  That is why they are eligible for a UK team (because of the Home Nations agreement, here to be eligible for England).  

As regards the other players, they have clearly been naturalised as "nationals" - acquired the "nationality" of that country.  In all of those cases, that will presumably also include them being citizens of the country, be entitled to vote etc.

But not everyone who is a national of a country, will be a citizen of that country (although that will usually be the case).  A person born in American Samoa has American nationality, but is not a U.S. citizen. 

It may be that Johanson has always had Irish nationality, but (up until recently) obviously was not an Irish citizen. 

Once again, what is the source of your contention that for FIFA, uniquely in the world, citizenship and nationality are the same thing? 

Jesus man, if you're a "citizen" of a country then you are also a "national" of that country. Are you suggesting there was once a time when Sterling, Zaha etc had been in Britain long enough to be "citizens" but not "nationals"? Because that is an absolutely bizarre assumption; how would it work, what is the timeframe?

Johansson was never an Irish national until he applied to become an Irish citizen, just like every other grandchild of an Irish emigrant. The Irish state does not recognise the grandchildren of emigrants as Irish nationals, citizens, or anything else until these grandchildren go through the lengthy and expensive process of submitting their name to the foreign births register. It is only once this occurs that a formal link between the Irish state and this individual is established. Similarly, FIFA will not permit a player to line out for a country until this formal link (nationality, citizenship, or whatever else you want to call it) has been created.
We're decent enough..
Back to Top
Luis Amor Rodriguez View Drop Down
Liam Brady
Liam Brady


Joined: 19 Sep 2016
Location: Harchester
Status: Offline
Points: 1121
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 10:38pm
If Johansson did not have Irish "nationality" as far as FIFA are concerned until his citizenship came through, and you are correct in that (which could be true in any event as a coincidence regardless of your "citizenship = nationality" assertion), then he could be in serious trouble on the eligibility front as the words of the statute are clear in stating he would not be eligible.  And Crowley (or, crazily, the multi-capped Robinson or Brazilian Russian Fernandes etc) wouldn't be eligible.

However, every legal system and language in general recognises a distinction between those concepts - although one may be indicative of or overlap with the other (a person will generally have to be naturalised as a national before they can be a citizen) - and you haven't been able to point to any evidence why FIFA uniquely would treat them as absolute equivalents.  

However, if that is the case, we could be in big trouble in terms of capping future grandparent rule players, from Johansson to Crowley, given the ubiquity of underage caps in football nowadays.  It would also adversely impact the many African countries with French colonial history.       
Back to Top
IrishKeano View Drop Down
Phil Babb
Phil Babb
Avatar

Joined: 09 Sep 2019
Location: Dublin
Status: Offline
Points: 31
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IrishKeano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Yes, I agree that a purposive approach is generally applied, as we've discussed elsewhere.  However that is difficult to apply if it is totally contradictory to the words of the law being interpreted. 

Sterling, Zaha, Cirkin etc have lived in England since they were young kids and are naturalised as nationals (i.e.: they all have British nationality), not just citizens as a result.  That is why they are eligible for a UK team (because of the Home Nations agreement, here to be eligible for England).  

As regards the other players, they have clearly been naturalised as "nationals" - acquired the "nationality" of that country.  In all of those cases, that will presumably also include them being citizens of the country, be entitled to vote etc.

But not everyone who is a national of a country, will be a citizen of that country (although that will usually be the case).  A person born in American Samoa has American nationality, but is not a U.S. citizen. 

It may be that Johanson has always had Irish nationality, but (up until recently) obviously was not an Irish citizen. 

Once again, what is the source of your contention that for FIFA, uniquely in the world, citizenship and nationality are the same thing? 

Jesus man, if you're a "citizen" of a country then you are also a "national" of that country. Are you suggesting there was once a time when Sterling, Zaha etc had been in Britain long enough to be "citizens" but not "nationals"? Because that is an absolutely bizarre assumption; how would it work, what is the timeframe?

Johansson was never an Irish national until he applied to become an Irish citizen, just like every other grandchild of an Irish emigrant. The Irish state does not recognise the grandchildren of emigrants as Irish nationals, citizens, or anything else until these grandchildren go through the lengthy and expensive process of submitting their name to the foreign births register. It is only once this occurs that a formal link between the Irish state and this individual is established. Similarly, FIFA will not permit a player to line out for a country until this formal link (nationality, citizenship, or whatever else you want to call it) has been created.


For what it's worth both Carlo Cudicini and Mikel Arteta tried to switch to England years ago and were prevented from doing so because of this rule......Both had played underage football (which I don't even think was competitive) for Italy and Spain and didn't hold a British passport at the time obviously, I know it's not the same set of circumstances but just thought I'd say that FIFA have actually set a precedent there.......So hopefully we can argue the always a national angle here.
Back to Top
AbuAbu View Drop Down
Kevin Kilbane
Kevin Kilbane
Avatar

Joined: 25 Mar 2015
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 358
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AbuAbu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 11:45am
lots of big words up thereHug
It's not me it's you:-)
Back to Top
Luis Amor Rodriguez View Drop Down
Liam Brady
Liam Brady


Joined: 19 Sep 2016
Location: Harchester
Status: Offline
Points: 1121
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 2:38pm
IrishKeano - good spot re Cudicini and Arteta.

That's why it's important for us that FIFA recognises the differences between the concepts of nationality and citizenship; which in general terms, I am sure it will.

It is unsurprising O'Shea could be confused as in 99.9% of situations, nationality and citizenship will mean the same thing; and the distinction is rarely raised.  However the difference is there, and you can be sure the drafters of the FIFA statutes were aware of it when they used the word "nationality" instead of "citizenship".  

Despite lots of angry posturing, O'Shea wasn't able to show one shred of evidence that the FIFA player status committee, uniquely in the legal systems in the world, says they are the same thing. 

I find it difficult to see how FIFA could get around the words of the Statute if O'Shea is correct and citizenship always means nationality - so this point (that Johansson always had Irish nationality, even if he was not a citizen) could be important for us.

I'm not sure if under Irish law Johansson could always have been considered an Irish national (I just haven't carefully looked in to it); but the hope would be under FIFA's definition of nationality (informed by things like the grandparent rule, and bearing in mind the intention of the statute in preventing unconnected/genuine foreigners playing for other countries etc), Johansson (and Crowley) would be regarded as an Irish national .

That is, the argument would be his citizenship (the right to vote etc) is contingent on a mere administrative expediency of filling in a form, but that substantive entitlement or character of "nationality" comes as a birthright.  That makes sense to me.

I think that might be the best argument and fits well with the Statutes and long established differences between legal concepts of citizenship and nationality.

If it isn't, well Johansson wasn't an Irish citizen and we would have an Arteta/Cudicini situation; and that wouldn't be fair for many reasons. 
Back to Top
The O'Shea View Drop Down
Jack Charlton
Jack Charlton
Avatar
Spouter of Utter Nonsense

Joined: 16 Aug 2013
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 6452
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

IrishKeano - good spot re Cudicini and Arteta.

That's why it's important for us that FIFA recognises the differences between the concepts of nationality and citizenship; which in general terms, I am sure it will.

It is unsurprising O'Shea could be confused as in 99.9% of situations, nationality and citizenship will mean the same thing; and the distinction is rarely raised.  However the difference is there, and you can be sure the drafters of the FIFA statutes were aware of it when they used the word "nationality" instead of "citizenship".  

Despite lots of angry posturing, O'Shea wasn't able to show one shred of evidence that the FIFA player status committee, uniquely in the legal systems in the world, says they are the same thing. 

I find it difficult to see how FIFA could get around the words of the Statute if O'Shea is correct and citizenship always means nationality - so this point (that Johansson always had Irish nationality, even if he was not a citizen) could be important for us.

I'm not sure if under Irish law Johansson could always have been considered an Irish national (I just haven't carefully looked in to it); but the hope would be under FIFA's definition of nationality (informed by things like the grandparent rule, and bearing in mind the intention of the statute in preventing unconnected/genuine foreigners playing for other countries etc), Johansson (and Crowley) would be regarded as an Irish national .

That is, the argument would be his citizenship (the right to vote etc) is contingent on a mere administrative expediency of filling in a form, but that substantive entitlement or character of "nationality" comes as a birthright.  That makes sense to me.

I think that might be the best argument and fits well with the Statutes and long established differences between legal concepts of citizenship and nationality.

If it isn't, well Johansson wasn't an Irish citizen and we would have an Arteta/Cudicini situation; and that wouldn't be fair for many reasons. 

Seriously, what the f*ck are you on about, you're literally coming up with arguments completely separate to mine and representing them as what I've said? Arteta and Cudicini fit perfectly into what I've argued; that FIFA only apply a purposive interpretation of the statute if the literal interpretation would be absurd. In the cases of Cudicini and Arteta, a literal interpretation did not lead to an absurd conclusion, so they were ineligible. In any case, even if FIFA had ruled them eligible they couldn't have played for England due to the self-imposed British rule that naturalised players must have 5 years of British schooling to play for the national team...

Essentially what you are continually displaying is that not only do you not know what you're talking about, you also don't know what I'm talking about... You blindly insist that I am claiming citizenship is the ONLY criteria for eligibility, I have never said that. Citizenship is a NECESSARY criteria for eligibility, but it is not the ONLY criteria. I have repeatedly stated this, but you continually ignore it because you either aren't reading what I'm saying, or you're too dense to interpret it.
We're decent enough..
Back to Top
Paul Andrew White View Drop Down
Ronnie Whelan
Ronnie Whelan


Joined: 29 Jul 2019
Status: Offline
Points: 60
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Andrew White Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 3:35pm
Dont envisage any bureaucracy on Crowley nor Johansson. We've got the upper hand, mates. 🍻
Back to Top
10 Box View Drop Down
Kevin Kilbane
Kevin Kilbane
Avatar

Joined: 21 Jun 2012
Location: Dublin
Status: Offline
Points: 260
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 10 Box Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by Paul Andrew White Paul Andrew White wrote:

Dont envisage any bureaucracy on Crowley nor Johansson. We've got the upper hand, mates. 🍻

I feel better already Wink
Back to Top
t_rAndy View Drop Down
Robbie Keane
Robbie Keane


Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 21555
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote t_rAndy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 3:40pm
So can they play for us or what?
Back to Top
Luis Amor Rodriguez View Drop Down
Liam Brady
Liam Brady


Joined: 19 Sep 2016
Location: Harchester
Status: Offline
Points: 1121
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by t_rAndy t_rAndy wrote:

So can they play for us or what?

It is likely that they will, yes.

Not because they were Irish citizens when they played for Lux/Eng - they weren't.

Rather because FIFA is likely to recognise some sort of Irish "nationality" - as the FIFA statutes understand that term - from birth.  
Back to Top
10 Box View Drop Down
Kevin Kilbane
Kevin Kilbane
Avatar

Joined: 21 Jun 2012
Location: Dublin
Status: Offline
Points: 260
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 10 Box Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Originally posted by t_rAndy t_rAndy wrote:

So can they play for us or what?

It is likely that they will, yes.

Not because they were Irish citizens when they played for Lux/Eng - they weren't.

Rather because FIFA is likely to recognise some sort of Irish "nationality" - as the FIFA statutes understand that term - from birth.  

Is the problem with Crowleys eligibility similiar or a different issue?

Back to Top
Luis Amor Rodriguez View Drop Down
Liam Brady
Liam Brady


Joined: 19 Sep 2016
Location: Harchester
Status: Offline
Points: 1121
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 4:01pm
" you're too dense to interpret it" , "what the f*ck are you on about" 

O'Shea, you wouldn't say something like that to my face, so it's odd you'd say something like that online. 

I don't think this should be a forum for abusive content.   

As regards the substance of the point - there are literally reams and reams of law on the difference between citizenship and nationality.  It's a millenia-old concept that goes back to the time of the Greeks and Romans.  

As I said in 99.9% of the cases they will be the same thing in practice, so there will be no difference in practice, which is why the cases correlate. But the principle is different and that may have relevance to the 0.1% of cases like the peculiar Irish citizenship laws.  

Read the Economist article for a summary - I won't try enlighten you any further, O'Shea.

Regarding a purposive approach to interpretation - I don't think you know about what this is other than snippets you've read on the internet.  

It's not something that generally exists to create a completely contradictory result to the words - which would be the case here: it is a fact that Johansson and Crowley were not citizens when they played underage for Lux/Eng.  There is no way of getting around that fact. 




Back to Top
The O'Shea View Drop Down
Jack Charlton
Jack Charlton
Avatar
Spouter of Utter Nonsense

Joined: 16 Aug 2013
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 6452
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 4:02pm
The same. I've a feeling there isn't actually any query over Crowley's eligibility though, and it's just Mick using the Johansson situation to deflect from the fact he just doesn't want to pick him.
We're decent enough..
Back to Top
Luis Amor Rodriguez View Drop Down
Liam Brady
Liam Brady


Joined: 19 Sep 2016
Location: Harchester
Status: Offline
Points: 1121
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by 10 Box 10 Box wrote:

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Originally posted by t_rAndy t_rAndy wrote:

So can they play for us or what?

It is likely that they will, yes.

Not because they were Irish citizens when they played for Lux/Eng - they weren't.

Rather because FIFA is likely to recognise some sort of Irish "nationality" - as the FIFA statutes understand that term - from birth.  

Is the problem with Crowleys eligibility similiar or a different issue?


We don't know for certain because no information has been given, but it is likely to be the same issue as it has a similar fact pattern 
- unless it relates to him having exhausted his switches - he went back and forth 4 times - not sure if they were all FIFA recognised age-groups.
Back to Top
Paul Andrew White View Drop Down
Ronnie Whelan
Ronnie Whelan


Joined: 29 Jul 2019
Status: Offline
Points: 60
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Andrew White Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by 10 Box 10 Box wrote:

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Originally posted by t_rAndy t_rAndy wrote:

So can they play for us or what?

It is likely that they will, yes.

Not because they were Irish citizens when they played for Lux/Eng - they weren't.

Rather because FIFA is likely to recognise some sort of Irish "nationality" - as the FIFA statutes understand that term - from birth.  

Is the problem with Crowleys eligibility similiar or a different issue?

Just the same. As long as these lads dont play senior international won't be any unexpected situations. We are Ireland. We have given the world of football a lot. Even when Thierry Henry won Us and cheated 4 years later.

Edited by Paul Andrew White - 12 Sep 2019 at 4:05pm
Back to Top
Luis Amor Rodriguez View Drop Down
Liam Brady
Liam Brady


Joined: 19 Sep 2016
Location: Harchester
Status: Offline
Points: 1121
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 4:29pm
Is there any concern that for Crowley, the problem is he has exhausted his one FIFA switch and so isn't eligible?

e.g.: the same as Jack Grealish's situation - still not capped competitively for England, but can never become eligible for Ireland again (even if he or we wanted) as you're only allowed the one switch at FIFA age-grade?


Edited by Luis Amor Rodriguez - 12 Sep 2019 at 4:29pm
Back to Top
The O'Shea View Drop Down
Jack Charlton
Jack Charlton
Avatar
Spouter of Utter Nonsense

Joined: 16 Aug 2013
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 6452
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Is there any concern that for Crowley, the problem is he has exhausted his one FIFA switch and so isn't eligible?

e.g.: the same as Jack Grealish's situation - still not capped competitively for England, but can never become eligible for Ireland again (even if he or we wanted) as you're only allowed the one switch at FIFA age-grade?

It has nothing to do with FIFA recognised age grades, its about FIFA recognised fixtures. He has never played in a FIFA recognised fixture for Ireland, only England. If he'd played competitively for us both it wouldn't even be a question over his eligibility, he would cut and dry simply be ineligible. 
We're decent enough..
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 262263264265266 273>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.00
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.