You Boys in Green Homepage YBIG Shop
Forum Home Forum Home : International : Republic Of Ireland
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Players eligible for Ireland
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Players eligible for Ireland

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 262263264265266 291>
Author
Message
t_rAndy View Drop Down
Robbie Keane
Robbie Keane


Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 22011
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote t_rAndy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 3:40pm
So can they play for us or what?
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Luis Amor Rodriguez View Drop Down
Liam Brady
Liam Brady


Joined: 19 Sep 2016
Location: Harchester
Status: Offline
Points: 1139
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by t_rAndy t_rAndy wrote:

So can they play for us or what?

It is likely that they will, yes.

Not because they were Irish citizens when they played for Lux/Eng - they weren't.

Rather because FIFA is likely to recognise some sort of Irish "nationality" - as the FIFA statutes understand that term - from birth.  
Back to Top
10 Box View Drop Down
Kevin Kilbane
Kevin Kilbane
Avatar

Joined: 21 Jun 2012
Location: Dublin
Status: Offline
Points: 272
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 10 Box Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Originally posted by t_rAndy t_rAndy wrote:

So can they play for us or what?

It is likely that they will, yes.

Not because they were Irish citizens when they played for Lux/Eng - they weren't.

Rather because FIFA is likely to recognise some sort of Irish "nationality" - as the FIFA statutes understand that term - from birth.  

Is the problem with Crowleys eligibility similiar or a different issue?

Back to Top
Luis Amor Rodriguez View Drop Down
Liam Brady
Liam Brady


Joined: 19 Sep 2016
Location: Harchester
Status: Offline
Points: 1139
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 4:01pm
" you're too dense to interpret it" , "what the f*ck are you on about" 

O'Shea, you wouldn't say something like that to my face, so it's odd you'd say something like that online. 

I don't think this should be a forum for abusive content.   

As regards the substance of the point - there are literally reams and reams of law on the difference between citizenship and nationality.  It's a millenia-old concept that goes back to the time of the Greeks and Romans.  

As I said in 99.9% of the cases they will be the same thing in practice, so there will be no difference in practice, which is why the cases correlate. But the principle is different and that may have relevance to the 0.1% of cases like the peculiar Irish citizenship laws.  

Read the Economist article for a summary - I won't try enlighten you any further, O'Shea.

Regarding a purposive approach to interpretation - I don't think you know about what this is other than snippets you've read on the internet.  

It's not something that generally exists to create a completely contradictory result to the words - which would be the case here: it is a fact that Johansson and Crowley were not citizens when they played underage for Lux/Eng.  There is no way of getting around that fact. 




Back to Top
The O'Shea View Drop Down
Jack Charlton
Jack Charlton
Avatar
I know everything and I’m NEVER wrong

Joined: 16 Aug 2013
Location: Ireland
Status: Online
Points: 7065
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 4:02pm
The same. I've a feeling there isn't actually any query over Crowley's eligibility though, and it's just Mick using the Johansson situation to deflect from the fact he just doesn't want to pick him.
We're decent enough..
Back to Top
Luis Amor Rodriguez View Drop Down
Liam Brady
Liam Brady


Joined: 19 Sep 2016
Location: Harchester
Status: Offline
Points: 1139
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by 10 Box 10 Box wrote:

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Originally posted by t_rAndy t_rAndy wrote:

So can they play for us or what?

It is likely that they will, yes.

Not because they were Irish citizens when they played for Lux/Eng - they weren't.

Rather because FIFA is likely to recognise some sort of Irish "nationality" - as the FIFA statutes understand that term - from birth.  

Is the problem with Crowleys eligibility similiar or a different issue?


We don't know for certain because no information has been given, but it is likely to be the same issue as it has a similar fact pattern 
- unless it relates to him having exhausted his switches - he went back and forth 4 times - not sure if they were all FIFA recognised age-groups.
Back to Top
Paul Andrew White View Drop Down
Ronnie Whelan
Ronnie Whelan


Joined: 29 Jul 2019
Status: Offline
Points: 60
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Andrew White Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by 10 Box 10 Box wrote:

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Originally posted by t_rAndy t_rAndy wrote:

So can they play for us or what?

It is likely that they will, yes.

Not because they were Irish citizens when they played for Lux/Eng - they weren't.

Rather because FIFA is likely to recognise some sort of Irish "nationality" - as the FIFA statutes understand that term - from birth.  

Is the problem with Crowleys eligibility similiar or a different issue?

Just the same. As long as these lads dont play senior international won't be any unexpected situations. We are Ireland. We have given the world of football a lot. Even when Thierry Henry won Us and cheated 4 years later.

Edited by Paul Andrew White - 12 Sep 2019 at 4:05pm
Back to Top
Luis Amor Rodriguez View Drop Down
Liam Brady
Liam Brady


Joined: 19 Sep 2016
Location: Harchester
Status: Offline
Points: 1139
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 4:29pm
Is there any concern that for Crowley, the problem is he has exhausted his one FIFA switch and so isn't eligible?

e.g.: the same as Jack Grealish's situation - still not capped competitively for England, but can never become eligible for Ireland again (even if he or we wanted) as you're only allowed the one switch at FIFA age-grade?


Edited by Luis Amor Rodriguez - 12 Sep 2019 at 4:29pm
Back to Top
The O'Shea View Drop Down
Jack Charlton
Jack Charlton
Avatar
I know everything and I’m NEVER wrong

Joined: 16 Aug 2013
Location: Ireland
Status: Online
Points: 7065
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Is there any concern that for Crowley, the problem is he has exhausted his one FIFA switch and so isn't eligible?

e.g.: the same as Jack Grealish's situation - still not capped competitively for England, but can never become eligible for Ireland again (even if he or we wanted) as you're only allowed the one switch at FIFA age-grade?

It has nothing to do with FIFA recognised age grades, its about FIFA recognised fixtures. He has never played in a FIFA recognised fixture for Ireland, only England. If he'd played competitively for us both it wouldn't even be a question over his eligibility, he would cut and dry simply be ineligible. 
We're decent enough..
Back to Top
The O'Shea View Drop Down
Jack Charlton
Jack Charlton
Avatar
I know everything and I’m NEVER wrong

Joined: 16 Aug 2013
Location: Ireland
Status: Online
Points: 7065
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

" you're too dense to interpret it" , "what the f*ck are you on about" 

O'Shea, you wouldn't say something like that to my face, so it's odd you'd say something like that online. 

I don't think this should be a forum for abusive content.   

As regards the substance of the point - there are literally reams and reams of law on the difference between citizenship and nationality.  It's a millenia-old concept that goes back to the time of the Greeks and Romans.  

As I said in 99.9% of the cases they will be the same thing in practice, so there will be no difference in practice, which is why the cases correlate. But the principle is different and that may have relevance to the 0.1% of cases like the peculiar Irish citizenship laws.  

Read the Economist article for a summary - I won't try enlighten you any further, O'Shea.

Regarding a purposive approach to interpretation - I don't think you know about what this is other than snippets you've read on the internet.  

It's not something that generally exists to create a completely contradictory result to the words - which would be the case here: it is a fact that Johansson and Crowley were not citizens when they played underage for Lux/Eng.  There is no way of getting around that fact. 





No, you really are just dense. I don't need to read the Economist article because as I've repeatedly said, I am aware that there is an arguable semantic difference between the two. In practice, however, this semantic difference is rarely acknowledged and the terms are used entirely interchangeably (ie it is commonly understood that an Irish national and Irish citizen are exactly the same thing). As far as FIFA are concerned, an Irish national is synonymous with being an Irish citizen and vice versa, this is what literally every shred of evidence points towards and it is (when you think about it) the only sensible way to determine if someone is a "national". Overwhelming evidence against your argument has never stopped you before though, so I don't expect it will stop you this time either.
We're decent enough..
Back to Top
Luis Amor Rodriguez View Drop Down
Liam Brady
Liam Brady


Joined: 19 Sep 2016
Location: Harchester
Status: Offline
Points: 1139
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 4:48pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Is there any concern that for Crowley, the problem is he has exhausted his one FIFA switch and so isn't eligible?

e.g.: the same as Jack Grealish's situation - still not capped competitively for England, but can never become eligible for Ireland again (even if he or we wanted) as you're only allowed the one switch at FIFA age-grade?

It has nothing to do with FIFA recognised age grades, its about FIFA recognised fixtures. He has never played in a FIFA recognised fixture for Ireland, only England. If he'd played competitively for us both it wouldn't even be a question over his eligibility, he would cut and dry simply be ineligible. 

Yes, I see he has played at two age-grades for Ireland U16 and U17, each time switching to England.  However the U16 and U17 Ireland caps were purely friendlies, whereas he got U17 and U19 competitive (FiFA recognised) caps for England.  

So he still has a switch in him. 

Which would possibly put him in the same situation as Johansson - though presumably Crowley would have had registered with the DOFA and got the passport situation sorted out before that i.e.: when he played U16 for Ireland and had yet to play competitively for England (though he had already played a friendly for England at U16)...

So he may have had an Irish passport when he made his competitive England debut - which would make him different to Johansson...

Not entirely clear!
Back to Top
Conan View Drop Down
500 Club la la la
500 Club la la la
Avatar
I’m not very bright.

Joined: 11 Mar 2015
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 611
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Conan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 4:51pm
Neither Johansson or presumably Crowley are eligible to transfer according to the statutes, regardless of anybody's personal interpretation of what is 'absurd' according to their personal (some may say extremely touchy) emotions on the subject. Its pretty clear cut.
However give that FIFA have already probably disregarded these rules to clear Robinson to play for us and possibly done the same for the benefit of other granny rule practitioners such as Algeria then they can't easily disallow Johansson and Crowley from switching on this basis or else you'd have a situation where all our qualifying results could be declared invalid on the basis of the use of a technically ineligible player  in Robinson and can't see FIFA/UEFA opening that potential can of worms.
Back to Top
The O'Shea View Drop Down
Jack Charlton
Jack Charlton
Avatar
I know everything and I’m NEVER wrong

Joined: 16 Aug 2013
Location: Ireland
Status: Online
Points: 7065
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 4:56pm
Originally posted by Conan Conan wrote:

Neither Johansson or presumably Crowley are eligible to transfer according to the statutes, regardless of anybody's personal interpretation of what is 'absurd' according to their personal (some may say extremely touchy) emotions on the subject. Its pretty clear cut.
However give that FIFA have already probably disregarded these rules to clear Robinson to play for us and possibly done the same for the benefit of other granny rule practitioners such as Algeria then they can't easily disallow Johansson and Crowley from switching on this basis or else you'd have a situation where all our qualifying results could be declared invalid on the basis of the use of a technically ineligible player  in Robinson and can't see FIFA/UEFA opening that potential can of worms.

"Absurd" in this case is a legal term used to explain the use of the purposive opposed to the literal approach, there is nothing emotional or personal about it. The belief that anything in the legal world is "clear cut" is absurd in the regular sense of the word however, and tends to only be asserted by those who have no knowledge of legal interpretation and processes.
We're decent enough..
Back to Top
Luis Amor Rodriguez View Drop Down
Liam Brady
Liam Brady


Joined: 19 Sep 2016
Location: Harchester
Status: Offline
Points: 1139
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

" you're too dense to interpret it" , "what the f*ck are you on about" 

O'Shea, you wouldn't say something like that to my face, so it's odd you'd say something like that online. 

I don't think this should be a forum for abusive content.   

As regards the substance of the point - there are literally reams and reams of law on the difference between citizenship and nationality.  It's a millenia-old concept that goes back to the time of the Greeks and Romans.  

As I said in 99.9% of the cases they will be the same thing in practice, so there will be no difference in practice, which is why the cases correlate. But the principle is different and that may have relevance to the 0.1% of cases like the peculiar Irish citizenship laws.  

Read the Economist article for a summary - I won't try enlighten you any further, O'Shea.

Regarding a purposive approach to interpretation - I don't think you know about what this is other than snippets you've read on the internet.  

It's not something that generally exists to create a completely contradictory result to the words - which would be the case here: it is a fact that Johansson and Crowley were not citizens when they played underage for Lux/Eng.  There is no way of getting around that fact. 





No, you really are just dense. I don't need to read the Economist article because as I've repeatedly said, I am aware that there is an arguable semantic difference between the two. In practice, however, this semantic difference is rarely acknowledged and the terms are used entirely interchangeably (ie it is commonly understood that an Irish national and Irish citizen are exactly the same thing). As far as FIFA are concerned, an Irish national is synonymous with being an Irish citizen and vice versa, this is what literally every shred of evidence points towards and it is (when you think about it) the only sensible way to determine if someone is a "national". Overwhelming evidence against your argument has never stopped you before though, so I don't expect it will stop you this time either.

It's a subtle distinction, not just a semantic distinction, well-recognised for millenia in law, but rarely raises its head, because of the huge overlap.

You haven't read the Economist article (which is really just a brief summary of loads of different law on this issue throughout the world), so you've literally closed your eyes to the reality and made things up. 

How else can you explain that a person born in American Samoa is has American nationality but is not an American citizen?  It used to be, until Congress changed it, that a person born in Puerto Rico had American nationality, but was not an American citizen.  

How do you explain that a person born in British Virgin Islands or Montserrat has British nationality, but is not a British citizen?

Anyway, I'm not going to educate you any further on a millenia-established and accepted point of law. 

You've made something up (i.e.: that citizenship =  nationality) in FIFA and have literally not produced one shred of evidence where FIFA say this is the case.  All you can point to is the 99.9% of cases where they will predictably, in practice, be the same thing.  Johansson's case may be the 0.1%.  


  



Back to Top
Luis Amor Rodriguez View Drop Down
Liam Brady
Liam Brady


Joined: 19 Sep 2016
Location: Harchester
Status: Offline
Points: 1139
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2019 at 5:03pm
Conor Gallagher wins the EFL's Young Player of the Month award:  
Back to Top
Left foot View Drop Down
Liam Brady
Liam Brady


Joined: 16 Aug 2019
Location: London
Status: Online
Points: 1149
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2019 at 5:08pm
Fifa rules are a shambles.

Ansu Fati lives in Spain 9 years, gets given Spanish citizenship and should now be available to line out for spain. No real ties to the country, just lived there...

Johansson or Crowley actually have ties to Ireland, needs to be reviewed as they played in some underage games for another team... which is something lots of players have done.
Back to Top
Luis Amor Rodriguez View Drop Down
Liam Brady
Liam Brady


Joined: 19 Sep 2016
Location: Harchester
Status: Offline
Points: 1139
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2019 at 5:15pm
Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Fifa rules are a shambles.

Ansu Fati lives in Spain 9 years, gets given Spanish citizenship and should now be available to line out for spain. No real ties to the country, just lived there...

Johansson or Crowley actually have ties to Ireland, needs to be reviewed as they played in some underage games for another team... which is something lots of players have done.

Yes, and the English FA would be loving an adverse decision against us on Johansson/Crowley - it would mean that they'd just have to cap lads at youth level - and if the lad hadn't sorted out their passport - they would be ineligible for us.  

Meanwhile if they cap a lad with Welsh eligibility it makes no difference, because the kid is "British" and so he can still line out for Wales. 

So absurdly, even though Wales isn't even a country - and their inclusion in FIFA really just a historical anomaly -  they get easier eligibility rules than the rest of us. 
Back to Top
ErsatzThistle View Drop Down
Davey Langan
Davey Langan
Avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Location: Glasgow
Status: Offline
Points: 810
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ErsatzThistle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2019 at 5:48pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:


So absurdly, even though Wales isn't even a country - and their inclusion in FIFA really just a historical anomaly -  they get easier eligibility rules than the rest of us. 

Wales is a country and it has been since the mid-11th Century.

What exactly makes you an expert judge of whether or not they are a country ?
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 262263264265266 291>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.00
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.