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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 3:16pm
Okay, I was not aware of that. In that case, Johansson could be in some difficulty. There is still an argument that you should be treated as having citizenship if it is simply a matter of applying for it and you cannot be refused it. That is certainly a principle of asylum and immigration law. For example, Irish law says a person born here is an Irish citizenship if they are other stateless. However, if, for example, they were entitled to Swedish citizenship on completion of a pro-forma application that could not be refused, then they may not be entitled to Irish citizenship. Similarly, if you claim asylum as, say, a Turkmenistan citizen in Ireland (and could not go back to Turkmenistan anywhere) but were entitled to apply for Russian citizenship as a matter of right (and would be safe in Russia), then you would not be granted asylum here, regardless of what happened you in Turkmenistan. That would be the case regardless of whether you had Russian citizenship already or not.

Obviously they are very different cases but the central point is the same: the law treats you as having the citizenship of a country if you are entitled to it on a non-discretionary basis, simply upon the appropriate application being made, even if you have not yet made the application.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 5:05pm
We'll just wait and see so
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 5:55pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

Having a passport is not the same as having the nationality. The word used in the FIFA statutes is nationality. Hadergjonaj was always a Kosovan national, even if he hadn't got the passport, by dint of being born with Kosovan parents.

I don't have kids but if I did, they'd be Irish citizens and nationals from the moment of their birth, not when they got their first passport, regardless of where they are born. The argument, in the Johansson case, is that he only became an Irish citizen (as opposed to someone entitled to apply for Irish citizenship) on the date he was entered on the register of foreign births, whereas Hadergjonaj was always a Kosovan national but was also a Swiss national when he made his first appearance for Switzerland, presumably by dint of being born there as the son of Kosovans.

They are not comparable cases, even leaving aside the recent Kosovan membership of FIFA. While I don't know the full ins and outs of Kosovan nationality law, I'm guessing he had the nationality from birth, like the vast majority of countries. Johannson, arguably, didn't have Irish citizenship at birth, merely the right to apply for it.

Then again, nationality and citizenship arguably aren't the same thing either, so Johansson can claim that he had nationality by dint of being the son of an Irish national entitled to claim citizenship as of right, but that he simply didn't have citizenship.

For the purposes FIFA are fulfilling, nationality and citizenship are synonymous. This has been covered previously, the semantical difference holds no water insofar as the intention of this FIFA statute.

To recap - apparently the objection to Johannson (and presumably Crowley) being eligible for Ireland is that they "acquired" Irish "nationality" after they played underage for a different country.  (The FIFA statute says such players can not switch).  The suggestion is they acquired this nationality because grandchildren of Irish people are not automatically citizens of Ireland, they need to first register with the Dept of Foreign Affairs on the Foreign Births Register. 

I've looked into this in a bit more detail but don't have time for a longer post now - Dave has basically summarised the position accurately.

With respect, O'Shea's comments are incorrect - nationality and citizenship are subtly but distinctly different concepts in FIFA and in general law.  Essentially citizenship is a social contract between a state and a person recognised as a citizen (e.g.: right to vote, right to travel using a passport of that nation, get social welfare etc), whereas nationality is a broader concept, often, but not exclusively, derived from descent and/or place of birth.

Without going in to detail, here is a broad layman's view of the difference by the The Economist: https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2017/07/09/what-is-the-difference-between-nationality-and-citizenship

The reason FIFA don't concern themselves with citizenship - and article 5 of the statute on eligibility is evidence of that - is that citizenship can in theory be granted and taken away e.g.: lots of nations essentially "sell" citizenship (you'll see ads in certain finance magazines advertising citizenship of the Caribbean island of Nevis).  So in theory, Qatar could hand out citizenship to the Brazilian U23 team if they want - FIFA ignores that and focuses on "nationality" and some other extra hurdles to establish eligibility. 

The passport thing is a bit of a red herring too - a passport is merely a travel document, although it may be indicative of citizenship (real proof, in Ireland at least, requires a document from the DOFA confusingly called a "certificate of nationality" - see the Citizenship and Nationality Act).

As regards Johannson, he acquired Irish citizenship after playing for Lux by registering on the Foreign Births Register (he got a passport at the same time, but that is incidental).  However that is irrelevant to whether he had Irish nationality (from birth).  

Given his Irish nationality comes from his descent, I would hope that he would be considered an Irish national, under the FIFA definition.  

If it did not, it would raise questions that would go merely beyond football concerns.




Edited by Luis Amor Rodriguez - 11 Sep 2019 at 6:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

Having a passport is not the same as having the nationality. The word used in the FIFA statutes is nationality. Hadergjonaj was always a Kosovan national, even if he hadn't got the passport, by dint of being born with Kosovan parents.

I don't have kids but if I did, they'd be Irish citizens and nationals from the moment of their birth, not when they got their first passport, regardless of where they are born. The argument, in the Johansson case, is that he only became an Irish citizen (as opposed to someone entitled to apply for Irish citizenship) on the date he was entered on the register of foreign births, whereas Hadergjonaj was always a Kosovan national but was also a Swiss national when he made his first appearance for Switzerland, presumably by dint of being born there as the son of Kosovans.

They are not comparable cases, even leaving aside the recent Kosovan membership of FIFA. While I don't know the full ins and outs of Kosovan nationality law, I'm guessing he had the nationality from birth, like the vast majority of countries. Johannson, arguably, didn't have Irish citizenship at birth, merely the right to apply for it.

Then again, nationality and citizenship arguably aren't the same thing either, so Johansson can claim that he had nationality by dint of being the son of an Irish national entitled to claim citizenship as of right, but that he simply didn't have citizenship.

For the purposes FIFA are fulfilling, nationality and citizenship are synonymous. This has been covered previously, the semantical difference holds no water insofar as the intention of this FIFA statute.

I've looked into this in a bit more detail but don't have time for a longer post now - Dave has basically correctly summarised the position accurately.

With respect, O'Shea's comments are incorrect - nationality and citizenship are subtly but distinctly different concepts in FIFA and in general law.  Essentially citizenship is a social contract between a state and a person recognised as a citizen (e.g.: right to vote, right to travel using a passport of that nation, get social welfare etc), whereas nationality is a broader concept, often, but not exclusively, derived from descent and place of birth.

Without going in to detail, here is a broad layman's view of the difference by the The Economist: https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2017/07/09/what-is-the-difference-between-nationality-and-citizenship

The reason FIFA don't concern themselves with citizenship - and article 5 of the statute on eligibility is evidence of that - is that citizenship can in theory be granted and taken away e.g.: lots of nations essentially "sell" citizenship (you'll see ads in certain finance magazines advertising citizenship of the Caribbean island of Nevis).  So in theory, Qatar could hand out citizenship to the Brazilian U23 team if they want - FIFA ignores that and focuses on "nationality" and some other extra hurdles to establish eligibility. 

The passport thing is a bit of a red herring too - a passport is merely a travel document, although it may be indicative of citizenship (real proof, in Ireland at least, requires a document from the DOFA confusingly called a "certificate of nationality" - see the Citizenship and Nationality Act).

As regards Johannson, he acquired Irish citizenship after playing for Lux by registering on the Foreign Births Register (he got a passport at the same time, but that is incidental).  However that is irrelevant to whether he had Irish nationality (from birth).  

Given his Irish nationality comes from his descent, I would hope that he would be considered an Irish national, under the FIFA definition.  

If it did not, it would raise questions that would go merely beyond football concerns.



You have continually displayed complete ignorance of FIFA's eligibility statutes, so why do you keep persisting?

There was no need to "research it", I've fully acknowledged that there can be a semantical difference between nationality and citizenship in a linguistic sense, but FIFA are not authoring the Oxford dictionary! As regards their statutes, nationality and citizenship are absolutely synonymous, there is no suggestion whatsoever that they draw any sort of distinction between the two. Johansson will be eligible for us due to precedent and due to the fact the intention of the rule was not to make people in his situation ineligible. Relying on a possible semantical distinction will bear no fruit, because as far as their statutes are concerned there is none.


Edited by The O'Shea - 11 Sep 2019 at 6:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

Having a passport is not the same as having the nationality. The word used in the FIFA statutes is nationality. Hadergjonaj was always a Kosovan national, even if he hadn't got the passport, by dint of being born with Kosovan parents.

I don't have kids but if I did, they'd be Irish citizens and nationals from the moment of their birth, not when they got their first passport, regardless of where they are born. The argument, in the Johansson case, is that he only became an Irish citizen (as opposed to someone entitled to apply for Irish citizenship) on the date he was entered on the register of foreign births, whereas Hadergjonaj was always a Kosovan national but was also a Swiss national when he made his first appearance for Switzerland, presumably by dint of being born there as the son of Kosovans.

They are not comparable cases, even leaving aside the recent Kosovan membership of FIFA. While I don't know the full ins and outs of Kosovan nationality law, I'm guessing he had the nationality from birth, like the vast majority of countries. Johannson, arguably, didn't have Irish citizenship at birth, merely the right to apply for it.

Then again, nationality and citizenship arguably aren't the same thing either, so Johansson can claim that he had nationality by dint of being the son of an Irish national entitled to claim citizenship as of right, but that he simply didn't have citizenship.

For the purposes FIFA are fulfilling, nationality and citizenship are synonymous. This has been covered previously, the semantical difference holds no water insofar as the intention of this FIFA statute.

I've looked into this in a bit more detail but don't have time for a longer post now - Dave has basically correctly summarised the position accurately.

With respect, O'Shea's comments are incorrect - nationality and citizenship are subtly but distinctly different concepts in FIFA and in general law.  Essentially citizenship is a social contract between a state and a person recognised as a citizen (e.g.: right to vote, right to travel using a passport of that nation, get social welfare etc), whereas nationality is a broader concept, often, but not exclusively, derived from descent and place of birth.

Without going in to detail, here is a broad layman's view of the difference by the The Economist: https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2017/07/09/what-is-the-difference-between-nationality-and-citizenship

The reason FIFA don't concern themselves with citizenship - and article 5 of the statute on eligibility is evidence of that - is that citizenship can in theory be granted and taken away e.g.: lots of nations essentially "sell" citizenship (you'll see ads in certain finance magazines advertising citizenship of the Caribbean island of Nevis).  So in theory, Qatar could hand out citizenship to the Brazilian U23 team if they want - FIFA ignores that and focuses on "nationality" and some other extra hurdles to establish eligibility. 

The passport thing is a bit of a red herring too - a passport is merely a travel document, although it may be indicative of citizenship (real proof, in Ireland at least, requires a document from the DOFA confusingly called a "certificate of nationality" - see the Citizenship and Nationality Act).

As regards Johannson, he acquired Irish citizenship after playing for Lux by registering on the Foreign Births Register (he got a passport at the same time, but that is incidental).  However that is irrelevant to whether he had Irish nationality (from birth).  

Given his Irish nationality comes from his descent, I would hope that he would be considered an Irish national, under the FIFA definition.  

If it did not, it would raise questions that would go merely beyond football concerns.



You have continually displayed complete ignorance of FIFA's eligibility statutes, so why do you keep persisting?

There was no need to "research it", I've fully acknowledged that there can be a semantical difference between nationality and citizenship in a linguistic sense, but FIFA are not authoring the Oxford dictionary! As regards their statutes, nationality and citizenship are absolutely synonymous, there is no suggestion whatsoever that they draw any sort of distinction between the two. Johansson will be eligible for us due to precedent and due to the fact the intention of the rule was not to make people in his situation ineligible. Relying on a possible semantical distinction will bear no fruit, because as far as their statutes are concerned there is none.

O'Shea, there's no need to lose the head.  

It's you who unfortunately displays ignorance of the FIFA Statutes which you clearly haven't read:
in them, "citizenship" and "nationality" are not synonomous.  

A quick review will demonstrate that "citizenship" is not even a concept that is considered - it does not appear anywhere in the statute.  FIFA doesn't care about "citizenship" - it doesn't enter the debate.

FIFA is concerned solely with "nationality" - this is the only concept discussed in the statutes. If you read them, you will see that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 6:25pm
Of course, if as O'Shea says, FIFA regarded "citizenship" and "nationality" as synonymous, then Qater could just make the best 11 uncapped Brazilians citizens tomorrow and have a team capable of getting to the knock-out stages of the world cup. 

Which is obviously ridiculous (aside from the fact "citizenship" isn't even a concept recognised in the Statutes). 

The only concern is the broader concept of "nationality" - the concept expressly considered in the Statutes - and how that is interpreted. 


Edited by Luis Amor Rodriguez - 11 Sep 2019 at 6:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

Having a passport is not the same as having the nationality. The word used in the FIFA statutes is nationality. Hadergjonaj was always a Kosovan national, even if he hadn't got the passport, by dint of being born with Kosovan parents.

I don't have kids but if I did, they'd be Irish citizens and nationals from the moment of their birth, not when they got their first passport, regardless of where they are born. The argument, in the Johansson case, is that he only became an Irish citizen (as opposed to someone entitled to apply for Irish citizenship) on the date he was entered on the register of foreign births, whereas Hadergjonaj was always a Kosovan national but was also a Swiss national when he made his first appearance for Switzerland, presumably by dint of being born there as the son of Kosovans.

They are not comparable cases, even leaving aside the recent Kosovan membership of FIFA. While I don't know the full ins and outs of Kosovan nationality law, I'm guessing he had the nationality from birth, like the vast majority of countries. Johannson, arguably, didn't have Irish citizenship at birth, merely the right to apply for it.

Then again, nationality and citizenship arguably aren't the same thing either, so Johansson can claim that he had nationality by dint of being the son of an Irish national entitled to claim citizenship as of right, but that he simply didn't have citizenship.

For the purposes FIFA are fulfilling, nationality and citizenship are synonymous. This has been covered previously, the semantical difference holds no water insofar as the intention of this FIFA statute.

I've looked into this in a bit more detail but don't have time for a longer post now - Dave has basically correctly summarised the position accurately.

With respect, O'Shea's comments are incorrect - nationality and citizenship are subtly but distinctly different concepts in FIFA and in general law.  Essentially citizenship is a social contract between a state and a person recognised as a citizen (e.g.: right to vote, right to travel using a passport of that nation, get social welfare etc), whereas nationality is a broader concept, often, but not exclusively, derived from descent and place of birth.

Without going in to detail, here is a broad layman's view of the difference by the The Economist: https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2017/07/09/what-is-the-difference-between-nationality-and-citizenship

The reason FIFA don't concern themselves with citizenship - and article 5 of the statute on eligibility is evidence of that - is that citizenship can in theory be granted and taken away e.g.: lots of nations essentially "sell" citizenship (you'll see ads in certain finance magazines advertising citizenship of the Caribbean island of Nevis).  So in theory, Qatar could hand out citizenship to the Brazilian U23 team if they want - FIFA ignores that and focuses on "nationality" and some other extra hurdles to establish eligibility. 

The passport thing is a bit of a red herring too - a passport is merely a travel document, although it may be indicative of citizenship (real proof, in Ireland at least, requires a document from the DOFA confusingly called a "certificate of nationality" - see the Citizenship and Nationality Act).

As regards Johannson, he acquired Irish citizenship after playing for Lux by registering on the Foreign Births Register (he got a passport at the same time, but that is incidental).  However that is irrelevant to whether he had Irish nationality (from birth).  

Given his Irish nationality comes from his descent, I would hope that he would be considered an Irish national, under the FIFA definition.  

If it did not, it would raise questions that would go merely beyond football concerns.



You have continually displayed complete ignorance of FIFA's eligibility statutes, so why do you keep persisting?

There was no need to "research it", I've fully acknowledged that there can be a semantical difference between nationality and citizenship in a linguistic sense, but FIFA are not authoring the Oxford dictionary! As regards their statutes, nationality and citizenship are absolutely synonymous, there is no suggestion whatsoever that they draw any sort of distinction between the two. Johansson will be eligible for us due to precedent and due to the fact the intention of the rule was not to make people in his situation ineligible. Relying on a possible semantical distinction will bear no fruit, because as far as their statutes are concerned there is none.

O'Shea, there's no need to lose the head.  

It's you who unfortunately displays ignorance of the FIFA Statutes which you clearly haven't read:
in them, "citizenship" and "nationality" are not synonomous.  

A quick review will demonstrate that "citizenship" is not even a concept that is considered - it does not appear anywhere in the statute.  FIFA doesn't care about "citizenship" - it doesn't enter the debate.

FIFA is concerned solely with "nationality" - this is the only concept discussed in the statutes. If you read them, you will see that.

And how do they determine nationality? By verifying that the person is a "national" (synonymous with citizen) of the country. Johansson was not an Irish national until he received his Irish citizenship, he was ENTITLED to become an Irish national before this but he was not yet one. This is what FIFA are concerned with, determining that a player is a national/citizen of a country, not simply that they could become one. This is why English born players always have to go through the process of obtaining an Irish passport prior to lining out for us, because merely stating you're entitled to one is not sufficient, you actually have to have it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 6:57pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Of course, if as O'Shea says, FIFA regarded "citizenship" and "nationality" as synonymous, then Qater could just make the best 11 uncapped Brazilians citizens tomorrow and have a team capable of getting to the knock-out stages of the world cup. 

Which is obviously ridiculous (aside from the fact "citizenship" isn't even a concept recognised in the Statutes). 

The only concern is the broader concept of "nationality" - the concept expressly considered in the Statutes - and how that is interpreted. 

This is a completely irrelevant argument, because FIFA have a different set of statutes that deal with naturalisation.. Even if this wasn't the case, you would still be contradicting yourself, because your hypothetical Brazilian-born Qatari citizens would also have Qatari nationality (ie the argument that FIFA are only concerned with your particular definition of nationality wouldn't make any sense either).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 6:58pm
Legal definitions and Fifa statutes aside, I get the feeling that if Johansson really pushes for this hard he could make it happen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 7:01pm
Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Legal definitions and Fifa statutes aside, I get the feeling that if Johansson really pushes for this hard he could make it happen.

Johansson can't "push hard", it's completely out of his hands now? This is not some sort of gut test where wanting something badly enough gets it for you, it's an administrative process between FIFA, the FAI, and the Luxembourg FA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 7:03pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Legal definitions and Fifa statutes aside, I get the feeling that if Johansson really pushes for this hard he could make it happen.

Johansson can't "push hard", it's completely out of his hands now? This is not some sort of gut test where wanting something badly enough gets it for you, it's an administrative process between FIFA, the FAI, and the Luxembourg FA.

Fair enough oshea but do you think we'll ever see him in the green or is this highly unlikely?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 7:11pm
Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Legal definitions and Fifa statutes aside, I get the feeling that if Johansson really pushes for this hard he could make it happen.

Johansson can't "push hard", it's completely out of his hands now? This is not some sort of gut test where wanting something badly enough gets it for you, it's an administrative process between FIFA, the FAI, and the Luxembourg FA.

Fair enough oshea but do you think we'll ever see him in the green or is this highly unlikely?

Precedent and the intention of the statute are certainly in our favour. From a purely literalist interpretation of the statute, not so much. On the balance of things though I'd be confident of this going our way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 7:40pm
O'Shea, I don't mean to be rude, but you're basically bluffing on entirely unsupported assertion. 

Where has FIFA ever said "citizenship" is the same as "nationality"?  You haven't read the Statutes, which don't concern themselves with "citizenship".  

If "citizenship" is the test, then why can't Qatar or Montserrat (or ROI for that matter) just make the best 11 uncapped Brazilians citizens tomorrow and make them eligible?  The answer is, obviously they wouldn't be - because citizenship is not the test.

You're just confusing the issue by literally making it up as you go along - without reading, let alone understanding, any of the applicable laws and regulations.  

Unfortunately, it's misleading for the majority of people who (in common with you) won't have looked into the laws on this.  

Your posts should carry a "bluffer" health warning!

 


Edited by Luis Amor Rodriguez - 11 Sep 2019 at 7:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 7:54pm
Of course, if O'Shea's made-up idea that "citizenship" is the same as "nationality" was correct, then Ryan Johannson would not be eligible for Ireland (or Dan Crowley - or Callum Robinson even!).  

Because it is beyond doubt he only became an Irish citizen in the last year or so (when he registered with the Dept of Foreign Affairs).  This occurred AFTER he played underage for Lux.  The rules forbid changes to nationalities "acquired" after being capped by the initial country (here Lux) - see article 8 of the Regulations on the Application of the Statute, which O'Shea can read here: https://resources.fifa.com/image/upload/the-fifa-statutes-2018.pdf?cloudid=whhncbdzio03cuhmwfxa

The question here simply is - did Johansson acquire Irish "nationality" when he became and Irish citizen, or did he always have it?

If as O'Shea says it's when he became a citizen, he is ineligible.  

Luckily, that interpretation is merely an invention of O'Shea's mind, and the question is one of "nationality".  It seems likely Johanson always had Irish nationality as far as FIFA is concerned, given his Mum and grandparents etc. 


Edited by Luis Amor Rodriguez - 11 Sep 2019 at 8:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 8:34pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Of course, if O'Shea's made-up idea that "citizenship" is the same as "nationality" was correct, then Ryan Johannson would not be eligible for Ireland (or Dan Crowley - or Callum Robinson even!).  

Because it is beyond doubt he only became an Irish citizen in the last year or so (when he registered with the Dept of Foreign Affairs).  This occurred AFTER he played underage for Lux.  The rules forbid changes to nationalities "acquired" after being capped by the initial country (here Lux) - see article 8 of the Regulations on the Application of the Statute, which O'Shea can read here: https://resources.fifa.com/image/upload/the-fifa-statutes-2018.pdf?cloudid=whhncbdzio03cuhmwfxa

The question here simply is - did Johansson acquire Irish "nationality" when he became and Irish citizen, or did he always have it?

If as O'Shea says it's when he became a citizen, he is ineligible.  

Luckily, that interpretation is merely an invention of O'Shea's mind, and the question is one of "nationality".  It seems likely Johanson always had Irish nationality, given his Mum and grandparents etc. 

What are you even on about? Crowley, Johansson, etc are POTENTIALLY ELIGIBLE for Ireland precisely because they are entitled to Irish citizenship, however the fact they didn't yet have Irish citizenship when they played competitively for another nation means they are at risk of falling foul to this additional FIFA statute. They will only be fully cleared to play for Ireland when all of the parameters are satisfied. If your construction of "nationality from descent"  was the true parameter, then there would be no need for the likes of Crowley, Johansson, Robinson, Pearce, O'Dowda, Clark, Hogan etc having to go through the process of ACQUIRING IRISH NATIONALITY in order to play for us; but that is exactly what every single one of them has had to do. They have had to ACQUIRE Irish nationality before they are cleared to play for us, because despite the fact they were always ENTITLED to it, they didn't yet have it.

In essence, this is a glaringly obvious distinction between being entitled to something, and actually having it. Children understand this difference, so let me put it in childrens terms; being entitled to a glass of water doesn't quench your thirst, you need someone to actually give it to you. Johansson was the guy still waiting on his Irish glass of water when he drank from Luxembourgs well in this metaphor, and therein lies the potential issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 8:46pm
No, you're off again.  The passport and citizenship thing is often an easy shorthand (in most cases) that the nationality requirements will be fulfilled (e.g: for many people it will be indicative of an Irish-born grandparent); and it can be readily be understood why that type of evidence would be included in any switch of FIFA nationality application.  

There are of course huge overlaps between nationality and citizenship, but they're not the same thing.

If they were the same thing, then surely you'd agree that since Johannson (or Callum Robinson for that matter) is only recently an Irish citizen (critically AFTER he was capped for someone else - see article 8), he is not eligible?

Surely you would also agree that Qatar could just give a passport, or rather citizenship, to an uncapped foreigner and the next day that player would be eligible to play for Qatar?  

The latter premise is obviously wrong. 

The former is, thankfully, largely irrelevant, because citizenship is not nationality (although in most cases will be indicative).  They are similar, they overlap, yes, but they are subtly different.  

What is the source of your contention that for FIFA, uniquely in the world, citizenship and nationality are the same thing? 

You have literally made this up!


Edited by Luis Amor Rodriguez - 11 Sep 2019 at 8:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 8:55pm
And for completeness, Ciaran Clark was an Irish citizen from birth.  His parents were born in Ireland. 

Edited by Luis Amor Rodriguez - 11 Sep 2019 at 9:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 9:13pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

No, you're off again.  The passport and citizenship thing is often an easy shorthand (in most cases) that the nationality requirements will be fulfilled (e.g: for many people it will be indicative of an Irish-born grandparent); and it can be readily be understood why that type of evidence would be included in any switch of FIFA nationality application.  

There are of course huge overlaps between nationality and citizenship, but they're not the same thing.

If they were the same thing, then surely you'd agree that since Johannson (or Callum Robinson for that matter) is only recently an Irish citizen (critically AFTER he was capped for someone else - see article 8), he is not eligible?

Surely you would also agree that Qatar could just give a passport, or rather citizenship, to an uncapped foreigner and the next day that player would be eligible to play for Qatar?  

The latter premise is obviously wrong. 

The former is, thankfully, largely irrelevant, because citizenship is not nationality (although in most cases will be indicative).  They are similar, they overlap, yes, but they are subtly different.  

What is the source of your contention that for FIFA, uniquely in the world, citizenship and nationality are the same thing?

You're arguing with me on something which we have already established that we disagree on. You apply (ridiculously and against all the evidence I might add) a purely literal approach to FIFA statutes; my position has always been that FIFA often apply a purposive approach to their statutes instead. Thus, even though the likes of Robinson probably would be ineligible through a purely literal interpretation of thestatutes, FIFA recognise this would be an absurd outcome and thus apply a purposive approach instead (this is the exact reason the purposive approach was invented, look it up).

On an aside, to return to your point which I don't think I properly addressed about "whats to stop us just giving citizenship to 11 Brazilians etc"; the answer is that absolutely nothing is stopping us other than the naturalisation process and ensuring that they haven't played competitively for Brazil prior to becoming Irish citizens. Again, this is a position well supported by the contemporary evidence. The Bulgarian squad we faced last night contained 2 Brazilians (Wanderson and Marcelinho), the current Russia squad has 3 (Guilherme, Fernandes, and Ari), Armenia have 1 (Pizelli), Slovakia had 1 (Dionatan Teixeira), and Spain, Portugal, and Italy have all naturalised numerous South Americans. Even closer to home, think of the amount of guys who have played for England at various age levels despite not being born there and having no ancestral link to the place (Sterling, Zaha, Berahino, Shola Ameobi, Bigirimana, Ronaldo Vieira, our very own Dennis Cirkin...). None of these guys qualify for England for any other reason than the British citizenship they have attained via residency in England. So again on this point, your argument falls flat on its face.
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