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Phil Babb
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NIGreenWall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 4:57pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Should that be so, then FIFA may consider this person to be "acquiring a new nationality" (i.e. other than that the country of birth eg Australia, UK etc). And FIFA's rules are clear that for anyone acquiring a new nationality, the grandparent would have to have been born on the territory of the new Association which the grandchild wishes to represent. Therefore if the grandparent(s) was born in NI, then the relevant association would be the IFA, not the FAI.

I should add that I'm by no means certain about this, and although there may have been one or two individuals capped by the FAI at under-age level who did not satisfy this test (Adam Barton?), they may have been an oversight?

In any case, I'm pretty sure it has never been tested at "A" (senior) international level, for a competitive game at least.

There's no "possibly" about this. We went through it ad infinitum around a year ago and definitive evidence was provided to you repeatedly by both myself and Danny Invincible which you simply chose not to accept... Your refusal to accept it does not change the finality of the evidence, however, no matter how much you might wish it did.
Unless you can point to a clear flaw in my argument; or you can point to a specific adjudication; or until it is properly tested by an actual example, you cannot claim that it is "definitive".

I am saying it could still go either way.

The clear flaw(s) in your argument were tirelessly laid out for you already, you still chose to ignore them. The easiest way to sum it up is with two simple examples; Alex Bruce and Adam Barton.


How many times has it so be said that Alex Bruce qualifies for the ROI through his ROI born grandparent on his mothers side irrespective of the NI born grandparent on his fathers side.

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/bruce-junior-plots-irish-future-19280

Adam Barton as you correctly say has no ROI link and played for your U21's based on his NI born grandparent, as far as the FAI are concerned there is no difference, FIFA don't look into the intricacies of all its members citizenship laws so it would be up to the IFA to raise a query with FIFA to see if the FAI's policy is correct or not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Should that be so, then FIFA may consider this person to be "acquiring a new nationality" (i.e. other than that the country of birth eg Australia, UK etc). And FIFA's rules are clear that for anyone acquiring a new nationality, the grandparent would have to have been born on the territory of the new Association which the grandchild wishes to represent. Therefore if the grandparent(s) was born in NI, then the relevant association would be the IFA, not the FAI.

I should add that I'm by no means certain about this, and although there may have been one or two individuals capped by the FAI at under-age level who did not satisfy this test (Adam Barton?), they may have been an oversight?

In any case, I'm pretty sure it has never been tested at "A" (senior) international level, for a competitive game at least.

There's no "possibly" about this. We went through it ad infinitum around a year ago and definitive evidence was provided to you repeatedly by both myself and Danny Invincible which you simply chose not to accept... Your refusal to accept it does not change the finality of the evidence, however, no matter how much you might wish it did.
Unless you can point to a clear flaw in my argument; or you can point to a specific adjudication; or until it is properly tested by an actual example, you cannot claim that it is "definitive".

I am saying it could still go either way.

The clear flaw(s) in your argument were tirelessly laid out for you already, you still chose to ignore them. The easiest way to sum it up is with two simple examples; Alex Bruce and Adam Barton.
NI GreenWall has just dealt with your Bruce example, while it is entirely possible that Barton was never eligible, since it has not actually been challenged.

Any other examples? You know, from the dozens of potential players to whom this NI granny application might apply?

No hurry, btw. For I'm actually more interested in your comment on the Danny Invincibile quotation I dug out from foot.ie, where he contradicted his own and your assertion on this matter. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horsebox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 5:35pm
Jimmy Dunne and Michael O'Connor are 2 other players currently being poached by the O'Neill.

I'm sure there are many others.

Bottom line is O'Neill is poaching players from the ROI no matter what spin you put on it.
     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Denis Irwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Jimmy Dunne and Michael O'Connor are 2 other players currently being poached by the O'Neill.

I'm sure there are many others.

Bottom line is O'Neill is poaching players from the ROI no matter what spin you put on it.


Now now Horsey don't be bringing facts into this that undermine Terri LOL


Edited by Denis Irwin - 11 Jan 2019 at 5:44pm
Eamonn Dunphy:"I'll tell you who wrote it, Rod Liddle, he's the guy who ran away and left his wife for a young one".

Bill O'Herlihy: Ah ye can't be saying that now Eamonn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 5:43pm
You've done it now HB. You've done the thing he's most allergic to and provided facts.

He'll now beat you down with irrelevant numbers and articles, prepare yourself LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 5:51pm
Fact is, for all the abuse you're giving Terri, he's correct. 

The selection of players apparently eligible for Ireland solely through a NI born grandparent is a grey area for the reasons he concisely and cogently points out about 3 pages back - just look at the wording of the various FIFA statutes and ROI citizenship rules (if you want good bed-time reading material).  

AFAIK, no such player has played a competitive senior international for ROI.  

However, if it were tested, my expectation is that a fudge would be made and the player would be ruled eligible. 

I appreciate we're re-hashing a discussion that was done to death here a year or so ago.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:


I appreciate we're re-hashing a discussion that was done to death here a year or so ago.  

That's the only purpose this thread has served tbh. Re-hashing players who were talked about years ago LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Jimmy Dunne and Michael O'Connor are 2 other players currently being poached by the O'Neill.

I'm sure there are many others.

Bottom line is O'Neill is poaching players from the ROI no matter what spin you put on it.
Michael is speaking to foreign-born players who, assuming they qualify for British nationality, are then eligible to represent the IFA by virtue of their NI-born grandparent(s).

Whereas we are talking about foreign-born players who as Irish nationals are looking to represent the FAI without having the requisite ROI-born grandparent(s) (or Irish born parents).

Either you lack the intelligence to see the difference, or the integrity to accept it, but whichever it is, you're only making yourself look silly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Fact is, for all the abuse you're giving Terri, he's correct. 

The selection of players apparently eligible for Ireland solely through a NI born grandparent is a grey area for the reasons he concisely and cogently points out about 3 pages back - just look at the wording of the various FIFA statutes and ROI citizenship rules (if you want good bed-time reading material).  

AFAIK, no such player has played a competitive senior international for ROI.
Thank you.

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

However, if it were tested, my expectation is that a fudge would be made and the player would be ruled eligible. 
Cannot agree, since a "fudge" is bound to antagonise at least one party (in this case the IFA), and worse, would only encourage other Associations to demand their own "fudge", in disputed cases.

With the Kearns case, for instance, the CAS came down on the side of the FAI only, since that accorded with their strict interpretation of FIFA's rules - i.e. no "fudge" there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 7:25pm
Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

You've done it now HB. You've done the thing he's most allergic to and provided facts.

He'll now beat you down with irrelevant numbers and articles, prepare yourself LOL
Well it's tempting, but even I bow down to the superior "beating down" qualities of your very own Danny Invincibile in such matters.

Speaking of whom.... Wink

Is there another "Danny Invincible" out there? Or has your DI changed his tune since October 2017?

For here is what he posted on another site, wrt Conor Tee of Leicester City, son of an English-born mother, whose own mother (CT's grandmother) was Mayo-born (my emphasis):

From Danny Invincibile Mk.I - 
[Conor's] uncle's statement is technically correct. He's quoted as saying:

"[Conor] wants to play for Ireland and the Leicester Under 18 manager has been in contact with the FAI. If he was to play, he would actually qualify through his granny as Maureen [his mother] was born in England before we moved home not long after."

Tee's mother is an automatic Irish national from birth on account of the fact that she was born to Irish citizens who were born in Ireland - I don't think the uncle is denying that - but as she herself was not born in Ireland, Tee's birth would have to be registered in the Foreign Births Register for him to acquire Irish citizenship. The article 7 criteria would apply to him then as he isn't a national from birth and the only criterion he satisfies is 7(c), relating to grandparentage from the territory of the relevant association.

"The lines are open, and I'm waiting for your call, Danny!" LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 8:16pm
Jaysis Terri, talk about waiting in the long grass for poor Danny...

Stalking the poor fooker through various websites so you can nail him on here LOL


Edited by Luis Amor Rodriguez - 11 Jan 2019 at 8:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 8:23pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by coyne coyne wrote:

You've done it now HB. You've done the thing he's most allergic to and provided facts.

He'll now beat you down with irrelevant numbers and articles, prepare yourself LOL
Well it's tempting, but even I bow down to the superior "beating down" qualities of your very own Danny Invincibile in such matters.

Speaking of whom.... Wink

Is there another "Danny Invincible" out there? Or has your DI changed his tune since October 2017?

For here is what he posted on another site, wrt Conor Tee of Leicester City, son of an English-born mother, whose own mother (CT's grandmother) was Mayo-born (my emphasis):

From Danny Invincibile Mk.I - 
[Conor's] uncle's statement is technically correct. He's quoted as saying:

"[Conor] wants to play for Ireland and the Leicester Under 18 manager has been in contact with the FAI. If he was to play, he would actually qualify through his granny as Maureen [his mother] was born in England before we moved home not long after."

Tee's mother is an automatic Irish national from birth on account of the fact that she was born to Irish citizens who were born in Ireland - I don't think the uncle is denying that - but as she herself was not born in Ireland, Tee's birth would have to be registered in the Foreign Births Register for him to acquire Irish citizenship. The article 7 criteria would apply to him then as he isn't a national from birth and the only criterion he satisfies is 7(c), relating to grandparentage from the territory of the relevant association.

"The lines are open, and I'm waiting for your call, Danny!" LOL

Guess what Terri.
DI thinks Eric Dier is crap. Whats your thoughts on this
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gazurtoids Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 10:32pm
Jack Clark at Leeds eligible? ...Jack sounds a bit Irish, I'm sure I've met a few
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2019 at 12:02am
I honestly can't believe you're persisting with this. Your argument is entirely conjecture-based, you have absolutely no evidence to back it up. Our position on the other hand is backed by concrete examples. Essentially, you rely on a literal interpretation of the statutes, apparently completely oblivious to the fact that laws are often not interpreted literally (particularly in cases where a literal interpretation would lead to an absurd outcome, which clearly applies here....)
We're decent enough..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danny Invincible Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2019 at 4:03am
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Should that be so, then FIFA may consider this person to be "acquiring a new nationality" (i.e. other than that the country of birth eg Australia, UK etc). And FIFA's rules are clear that for anyone acquiring a new nationality, the grandparent would have to have been born on the territory of the new Association which the grandchild wishes to represent. Therefore if the grandparent(s) was born in NI, then the relevant association would be the IFA, not the FAI.

I should add that I'm by no means certain about this, and although there may have been one or two individuals capped by the FAI at under-age level who did not satisfy this test (Adam Barton?), they may have been an oversight?

In any case, I'm pretty sure it has never been tested at "A" (senior) international level, for a competitive game at least.

There's no "possibly" about this. We went through it ad infinitum around a year ago and definitive evidence was provided to you repeatedly by both myself and Danny Invincible which you simply chose not to accept... Your refusal to accept it does not change the finality of the evidence, however, no matter how much you might wish it did.
Unless you can point to a clear flaw in my argument; or you can point to a specific adjudication; or until it is properly tested by an actual example, you cannot claim that it is "definitive".

I am saying it could still go either way.

UPDATE:

Is there another "Danny Invincible" out there? Or has your DI changed his tune since October 2017?

For here is what he posted on another site, wrt Conor Tee of Leicester City, son of an English-born mother, whose own mother (CT's grandmother) was Mayo-born (my emphasis):

From Danny Invincibile Mk.I - 
[Conor's] uncle's statement is technically correct. He's quoted as saying:

"[Conor] wants to play for Ireland and the Leicester Under 18 manager has been in contact with the FAI. If he was to play, he would actually qualify through his granny as Maureen [his mother] was born in England before we moved home not long after."

Tee's mother is an automatic Irish national from birth on account of the fact that she was born to Irish citizens who were born in Ireland - I don't think the uncle is denying that - but as she herself was not born in Ireland, Tee's birth would have to be registered in the Foreign Births Register for him to acquire Irish citizenship. The article 7 criteria would apply to him then as he isn't a national from birth and the only criterion he satisfies is 7(c), relating to grandparentage from the territory of the relevant association.

(See also Article 7, page 71, of the relevant FIFA Regulations: https://resources.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/generic/02/78/29/07/fifastatutsweben_neutral.pdf )




Hi Terri, I've been on a bit of a break from forums for a while, but a little birdie told me you were chasing after me. Yes, that's me on Foot.ie too, and I'm truly flattered that you've been trawling through Foot.ie threads on eligibility to read my posts. EmbarrassedHeart

Anyway, to the point, what exactly have I said that you perceive to be contradictory? What did I say in October of 2017 that is supposedly contradicted? It is my understanding that, for the purpose of applying article 7(c) in the Irish context, FIFA regard the entire island as the "territory" of the FAI; they apply a purposive interpretation rather than a literal one.

The purposive approach to legal, statutory or regulatory interpretation is not something I'm just making up either. It has a long history in the legal tradition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purposive_approach 

By the way, I note you never saw fit to respond to my rebuttal of your errors in understanding back last March: https://forum.ybig.ie/forum_posts.asp?TID=51293&PID=2085508&title=were-not-brasil-were-tuaisceart-ireann#2085508

Can it be assumed that you now accept the points I made? (I hope you did actually read the Kearns judgment along with articles 5-8 of FIFA's Regulations Governing the Application of the Statutes and that it proved enlightening for you.)

Originally posted by NIGreenWall NIGreenWall wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Should that be so, then FIFA may consider this person to be "acquiring a new nationality" (i.e. other than that the country of birth eg Australia, UK etc). And FIFA's rules are clear that for anyone acquiring a new nationality, the grandparent would have to have been born on the territory of the new Association which the grandchild wishes to represent. Therefore if the grandparent(s) was born in NI, then the relevant association would be the IFA, not the FAI.

I should add that I'm by no means certain about this, and although there may have been one or two individuals capped by the FAI at under-age level who did not satisfy this test (Adam Barton?), they may have been an oversight?

In any case, I'm pretty sure it has never been tested at "A" (senior) international level, for a competitive game at least.

There's no "possibly" about this. We went through it ad infinitum around a year ago and definitive evidence was provided to you repeatedly by both myself and Danny Invincible which you simply chose not to accept... Your refusal to accept it does not change the finality of the evidence, however, no matter how much you might wish it did.
Unless you can point to a clear flaw in my argument; or you can point to a specific adjudication; or until it is properly tested by an actual example, you cannot claim that it is "definitive".

I am saying it could still go either way.

The clear flaw(s) in your argument were tirelessly laid out for you already, you still chose to ignore them. The easiest way to sum it up is with two simple examples; Alex Bruce and Adam Barton.


How many times has it so be said that Alex Bruce qualifies for the ROI through his ROI born grandparent on his mothers side irrespective of the NI born grandparent on his fathers side.

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/bruce-junior-plots-irish-future-19280

Adam Barton as you correctly say has no ROI link and played for your U21's based on his NI born grandparent, as far as the FAI are concerned there is no difference, FIFA don't look into the intricacies of all its members citizenship laws so it would be up to the IFA to raise a query with FIFA to see if the FAI's policy is correct or not.
 

Your notion that Barton may not have been eligible, despite having represented us in an under-21 friendly and four competitive qualification games for the European Under-21 Championship, is conspiracy theory. The FAI aren't sloppy with capping players in competitive games. It'd be a serious breach of rules and would be punished if found out. Barton's appearance in multiple competitive games is evidence of his eligibility - that reasonably satisfies the burden of proof here - unless you can supply some evidence to the contrary. If you can't, it's reasonable to assume he's eligible, based on the evidence.  

So, it was reported that Alex Bruce actually has a southern grandparent. Any idea where this alleged grandparent is from? I'd only ever seen it reported that he had a grandparent from Bangor when it came to media explanations for his eligibility for both the FAI and IFA. Can we be certain the Birmingham Mail picked up the facts of his case correctly? Media outlets are notorious for misreporting facts on eligibility matters. (For what's it's worth, the FAI's Disciplinary Control Unit confirmed to me in March of 2015 that Bruce was fully eligible to play for the FAI.)

To suggest FIFA don't concern themselves with the specifics of states' nationality laws is nonsense. They have to in order to know whether articles other than just article 5 should apply to a player wishing to play for an international team. And what do you think the Players' Status Committee spend their time doing for months after a player requests a switch of association and before they approve the request?

Originally posted by Luis Amor Rodriguez Luis Amor Rodriguez wrote:

Fact is, for all the abuse you're giving Terri, he's correct. 

The selection of players apparently eligible for Ireland solely through a NI born grandparent is a grey area for the reasons he concisely and cogently points out about 3 pages back - just look at the wording of the various FIFA statutes and ROI citizenship rules (if you want good bed-time reading material).  

AFAIK, no such player has played a competitive senior international for ROI.  

However, if it were tested, my expectation is that a fudge would be made and the player would be ruled eligible. 

I appreciate we're re-hashing a discussion that was done to death here a year or so ago.  
 

Whether or not a player who fits the criteria under discussion has played a competitive senior international for us is irrelevant. Adam Barton played in four competitive under-21 games. Competitive means competitive, whether that's senior or under-age. The eligibility rules apply equally to all competitive age groups.

If it were tested, Barton would be ruled eligible not because of any "fudge". It would because FIFA apply a purposive (rather then literal) approach to interpretation of the relevant regulation in the FAI's case and Barton is fully eligible under such an interpretation. 

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

With the Kearns case, for instance, the CAS came down on the side of the FAI only, since that accorded with their strict interpretation of FIFA's rules - i.e. no "fudge" there.
 

"Only" because the FAI's position accorded with the rules? LOL The rules are pretty crucial. A dispute over them - due to a so obviously erroneous IFA interpretation - was the whole basis of the case. The case was never going to go any other way than the way it did, because the IFA erroneously thought article 16 (now article 6) applied to Kearns in respect of his eligibility to play for the FAI. Reality is that only article 15 (now article 5) applied to him in respect of his eligibility to play for the FAI. What other interpretation was possible?

Edited by Danny Invincible - 12 Jan 2019 at 5:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horsebox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2019 at 10:35am
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Jimmy Dunne and Michael O'Connor are 2 other players currently being poached by the O'Neill.

I'm sure there are many others.

Bottom line is O'Neill is poaching players from the ROI no matter what spin you put on it.
Michael is speaking to foreign-born players who, assuming they qualify for British nationality, are then eligible to represent the IFA by virtue of their NI-born grandparent(s).

Whereas we are talking about foreign-born players who as Irish nationals are looking to represent the FAI without having the requisite ROI-born grandparent(s) (or Irish born parents).

Either you lack the intelligence to see the difference, or the integrity to accept it, but whichever it is, you're only making yourself look silly.


You can dress it up however you like.

     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2019 at 12:47pm
It's also worth noting that Bailey Peackock-Farrell (who qualifies through his Enniskillen-born grandfather) was very recently approached by the FAI only to turn them down. So if Barton and Bruce were somehow actually ineligible despite the FAI picking them repeatedly, then they haven't learned their lesson.... Now the logical conclusion to this would be that there is no eligibility issue whatsoever; but in Territorial's world the FAI are dim-witted idiots, doomed to repeat the same mistakes over-and-over (all the while conveniently avoiding any sanctions from FIFA despite flaunting their rules...) LOL


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/proud-bailey-peacock-farrell-embraces-his-northern-roots-1.3621851%3fmode=amp

We're decent enough..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luis Amor Rodriguez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2019 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

It's also worth noting that Bailey Peackock-Farrell (who qualifies through his Enniskillen-born grandfather) was very recently approached by the FAI only to turn them down. So if Barton and Bruce were somehow actually ineligible despite the FAI picking them repeatedly, then they haven't learned their lesson.... Now the logical conclusion to this would be that there is no eligibility issue whatsoever; but in Territorial's world the FAI are dim-witted idiots, doomed to repeat the same mistakes over-and-over (all the while conveniently avoiding any sanctions from FIFA despite flaunting their rules...) LOL


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/proud-bailey-peacock-farrell-embraces-his-northern-roots-1.3621851%3fmode=amp


BPF was approached by Noel King at U21.  He was not approached by senior management to be considered for a senior competitive cap.  Therefore that example does not change the position or add anything to the discussion unfortunately.  

Taken one step further, it might be considered odd that BPF was not approached by senior management when he was playing GK for one of the best Championship teams (a position we're not laden down with quality for).

Senior management also omitted to contact George Saville and Jamal Lewis, despite both featuring regularly at Championship level (and more recently playing better than any of our lot in the Aviva Ouch).  

Possibly we can put these failures down to inadvertent and negligent scouting at senior level, but they do seem odd omissions. 
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