'New York style' Zero Tolerence.Wouldit work here? |
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irishmufc
Robbie Keane I love Vulvas Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Location: Dublin Status: Offline Points: 25059 |
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Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 2:59pm |
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I had two cousins that lived in New York from the late 80s to the early 00s.They seen the benefit of zero tolerence adopted from the Broken Windows Theory principle that if you tolerate minor public offences than you'll tolerate bigger ones.The idea was to hit the first time offender hard.I know New York is an extreme example as the city was going down the toilet with the high level of crime it had previous to this.Giuliani is most associated with cleaning up New York which is a common myth.I remember the cousin telling me this William Bratton NYPD head honcho was central in cleaning up the city to make it the safe 'cop on every block' city it is today.It cost alot of money and man power to do this but it worked.New Yorks crime rate dropped over 60% (63% exactly) within a number of years.
In regards to Ireland with people having 60/70 previous convictions like in Britain (Asbo's).Clearly the justice system doesn't work.I wonder how feasible could we implement a system that nails first time offenders in such a way that they're less likely to do so again.Whether that means more jail time,heavier fines,I don't know. I can understand peoples anger but you cant have a mob rule society where 300 people can congregate outside a police station in Athlone.There is due process no matter how much of a scumbag this guy is.Id like a serious discussion without the "he should have a hole in the ground to sh*t in", "his balls should be cut off".You cant go brutalizing/torturing criminals when they're in prison.They'll come out worse.It gives me an uneasy feeling when you see peoples nasty reactions to an horrific crime which is understandable as some people on here have kids but the paedophile crime is a different issue to this. My own belief is prison has to be a place you do not want to go back to.A balance between punishment and rehabilitation is needed.I do think there are alot of privilages that could be taken away but things like education,access to reading books,having prisoners out under armed guard doing basic county/urban council duties emptying bins,basic labouring on roads,comminity service.It would be of benefit to prisoners and cut down maybe on overtime the county council workers would usually do.I don't know how feasible a military school/boot camp type of facility for young offenders could be introduced that may be more effective in cutting down their chances of repeating offences. Obviously there's a social factor that needs to be addressed when people are from broken homes and rough estates in major cities.Hopefully urban renewal and gentrification will help alleviate this as a cause of why people commit crimes. Anyone that goes to on Ireland aways,Spain on holidays, United States,etc etc .There is a respect for the police and if you act the prick abroad you'll be rightfully punished.A Polish lad I spoke to was stunned of how there is a lack of respect for the authorities over here.He couldn't believe how soft the police were in comparison to Poland. Any ideas how we could implement a zero tolerence on 1. young/first time offenders 2. repeat/ adult offenders 3. the legal implications/ possible human rights/E.U. violations on introducing chemical castration on convicted paedophile sex offenders Edited by irishmufc - 01 Oct 2013 at 3:01pm |
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Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
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SuperDave84
Robbie Keane ooh Thomas, how could you do this to me! Joined: 26 Aug 2011 Location: Far Fungannon Status: Offline Points: 21384 |
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It works provided you have increased detection, prosecution and conviction rates. The biggest problem in Ireland at the minute is the detection and prosecution rates. Just about everyone charged with a minor crime is convicted. There are very, very few people who are caught who get away on technicalities. The biggest problem is the shrinking size of the Garda Siochana, not the conviction of people charged with crimes. That certainly doesn't help. If criminals think they'll get away with it, they have no problem committing the crime. If they think they'll get caught (regardless of the punishment, more or less) they are a lot less likely to commit the crime.
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SuperDave84
Robbie Keane ooh Thomas, how could you do this to me! Joined: 26 Aug 2011 Location: Far Fungannon Status: Offline Points: 21384 |
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Basically, things like heavier fines and longer sentences for first time offenders don't make much difference.
Put it like this: if you have a good chance of getting away with it, prospective sentences have little effect. That's why catching criminals is more important than punishing them. |
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irishmufc
Robbie Keane I love Vulvas Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Location: Dublin Status: Offline Points: 25059 |
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Ok SD i know your theory but we'll say you are the Minister for Justice as of now.Could you provide an example of the type of framework you would implement? Is there anything we could adopt from the New York example or is it just too much of a different scenario to really take anything from.At the moment people are repeating offences whether they're minor or adults.Is it really simply a case of not enough Police being about or is there any other factor you could introduce? Anyone ever in New York,you cant walk two feet without seeing some type of police presence.I never see any police when lads are beating the heads of each other outside the local take away.Would arming the police or certain specific changes in criminal law that you'd be familiar with work? |
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Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
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irishmufc
Robbie Keane I love Vulvas Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Location: Dublin Status: Offline Points: 25059 |
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Or is it simply just increasing the chances of being caught the overriding factor?
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Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
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Tippbiffo
Liam Brady Joined: 22 Mar 2012 Location: Wexford Status: Offline Points: 1199 |
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When the guards are doing their job and when they have to get heavy handed with scum who are fighting on the street or acting the gobsh*te thereis always someone complaining that the guards are enforcing police brutality. There is no respect for the law in Ireland. There is no fear of the justice system. There is not enough prisons. Scum will always float to the top of freedom in irish society. It stems from lack of respect for elders and teachers. A good kick in the hole when a kid is going down the wrong track might save millions in the long run.
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coleman's
Liam Brady Joined: 22 Nov 2011 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 1018 |
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New York definitely has zero tolerance. I got arrested on a J1 over there for hopping a subway turnstile when locked. Supposedly it's a fine and the cop's were completely in the wrong. Ended up in holding cells (which had sh*t marks on their ceilings) overnight for about 16 hours and facing a Judge Judy style courtroom the next day! Didn't end up on my "record" though, and with the limited finances I had at the time probably worked out best in the end.
Worked anyway cause I paid for my subways from there on out!
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irishmufc
Robbie Keane I love Vulvas Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Location: Dublin Status: Offline Points: 25059 |
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Proper order.I know it seems a bit harsh but you know yourself you were in the wrong and you won't do it again. |
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Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
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Cabra Hoop
Roy Keane Joined: 06 Feb 2012 Location: Royal County Status: Offline Points: 10823 |
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Ireland used to have a Zero Tolerence system in place, it was known as the Industrial School and Mental Hospital system. |
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" BFC always gives me a laugh........ "
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RogerMilla
Moderator Group #TEAMJAVIER #ENGANCHE Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Location: Delaney Park Status: Offline Points: 34858 |
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in freakonomics their theory is that zero tolerance did not make all that much difference.
there were other factors for the reduction of crime.
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The first time the Devil made me do it. The second time I did it on my own.
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Baldrick
Robbie Keane Peyton-tly Pedantic Joined: 18 Sep 2008 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 32724 |
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Is it true that all they did was dump all the criminals in to New Jersey. Not sure where I heard that, but that was a suggestion I read somewhere. Is there any truth to that.
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AKA pedantic kunt
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Tippbiffo
Liam Brady Joined: 22 Mar 2012 Location: Wexford Status: Offline Points: 1199 |
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Cabra Hoop
Roy Keane Joined: 06 Feb 2012 Location: Royal County Status: Offline Points: 10823 |
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Sorry Tipp - just a failed attempt at humour on a miserable day..........
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" BFC always gives me a laugh........ "
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Tippbiffo
Liam Brady Joined: 22 Mar 2012 Location: Wexford Status: Offline Points: 1199 |
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irishmufc
Robbie Keane I love Vulvas Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Location: Dublin Status: Offline Points: 25059 |
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might improve for ya if Stokes puts the Catalans to the sword |
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Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
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irishmufc
Robbie Keane I love Vulvas Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Location: Dublin Status: Offline Points: 25059 |
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. You've been watching too many Sopranos episodes . Joking aside New Jersey has some pretty rough areas.There s one place called Camden (I think) thats meant to be the roughest town/small city in the U.S. |
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Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
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Mr Marbles
Liam Brady Joined: 03 Nov 2008 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 1739 |
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There is a theory that the reason crime dropped at this time was due to abortion being made legal in New York two decades or so before and had little or nothing to do with police policy
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SuperDave84
Robbie Keane ooh Thomas, how could you do this to me! Joined: 26 Aug 2011 Location: Far Fungannon Status: Offline Points: 21384 |
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The scenario isn't that different. Crime was a lot worse in the US back then though. First thing I would do is re-open Templemore and hire a load of gardai. From my own interaction with the guards, a lot of the paperwork is done by Sergeants rather than rank and file Gardai, who are left a lot more free to do actual policing. I would make sure no Garda is in court unless they need to be and make sure the majority of court work is done by Sergeants with the arresting Garda only showing up if the matter is definitely going on for hearing. I would have loads more Gardai stationed in trouble areas and out on the beat, rather than in their cars. In terms of paying for it, I would reduce prison sentences for non-violent offenders and increase spending on drug treatment and addiction courses. A lot of that is done by voluntary organisations and that's not really on. I wouldn't necessarily reduce spending in prisons but I would probably introduce a rule banning tvs in cells (not sure if they have them at the minute, I think they do) and spend the money on education and books and such. I would also try and eliminate the mandatory minimum sentences for drug dealing over a certain amount, but only where the person caught does not own the drugs (that is, where they are mules) which should reduce prison costs. While ideally I would legalise possession of just about every drug where it is for personal use (it is working brilliantly in Portugal in lowering addiction rates) I would continue to hammer dealers where possible. There's no guarantee any of this would work. However, I don't think it would make things worse and it might improve things. Nothing ventured, nothing gained and all that. |
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