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Nadir or Underachieving

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Paul McGrath
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 9fingers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2023 at 8:24am
Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Stickittotheman Stickittotheman wrote:

We are underachieving. Was what Mick had in his campaign significantly better than Kenny has had available? I would argue they were much the same and yet Mick had us one goal from qualifying. MON's team that went to the Euros was probably a step above what we have now but not so far ahead that we should be where we currently are. Manager is to blame. No one else. It has been a disastrous failure.

Mick steadied the ship, nothing more. We limped past Gibraltar twice and disgraced ourselves in Georgia. Denmark and Switzerland always had more than us and were going to qualify ahead of us.

Talk about exaggerating.


I really don’t think it is. 
That Georgia match will live with me forever. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horsebox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2023 at 8:28am
We should have beat them and we didn't, and we only needed a point from the game which we got anyway.

McCarthy still brought us in to the last game of the group with the possibility of qualifying.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 9fingers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2023 at 8:44am
Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

We should have beat them and we didn't, and we only needed a point from the game which we got anyway.

McCarthy still brought us in to the last game of the group with the possibility of qualifying.




I’m not denying that, I’m more emphasizing how bad that Georgia performance was and that we were already on the slide when Mick came in, obviously SK has exacerbated that despite giving some hope ar the start. 
But the football largely under Mick and definitely under Martin in the last 12/18 months was brutal 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote You Tell Me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2023 at 9:34am
In fairness to him it couldn't be anything else with the squad we had at that point. He was extremely pragmatic in his approach and he almost pulled off what would have been an unbelievable achievement getting out of that group with those players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ConorMac77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2023 at 9:58am
Originally posted by 9fingers 9fingers wrote:

Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Stickittotheman Stickittotheman wrote:

We are underachieving. Was what Mick had in his campaign significantly better than Kenny has had available? I would argue they were much the same and yet Mick had us one goal from qualifying. MON's team that went to the Euros was probably a step above what we have now but not so far ahead that we should be where we currently are. Manager is to blame. No one else. It has been a disastrous failure.

Mick steadied the ship, nothing more. We limped past Gibraltar twice and disgraced ourselves in Georgia. Denmark and Switzerland always had more than us and were going to qualify ahead of us.

Talk about exaggerating.


I really don’t think it is. 
That Georgia match will live with me forever. 
Worse than the one in 2017?  Really? That's the one that will haunt me - the depressing experience of watching a team of supposed professionals playing like a pub team that had only just met and treated the ball like it was a grenade with the pin removed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2023 at 10:02am
The point is that w we have been pretty sh*t since the 2017 after having an excellent qualifying group under O Neill which was better than the 2016.   2018-2023 has been 6 years of sh*te.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2023 at 11:05am
Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Stickittotheman Stickittotheman wrote:

We are underachieving. Was what Mick had in his campaign significantly better than Kenny has had available? I would argue they were much the same and yet Mick had us one goal from qualifying. MON's team that went to the Euros was probably a step above what we have now but not so far ahead that we should be where we currently are. Manager is to blame. No one else. It has been a disastrous failure.

Mick steadied the ship, nothing more. We limped past Gibraltar twice and disgraced ourselves in Georgia. Denmark and Switzerland always had more than us and were going to qualify ahead of us.

Talk about exaggerating.



Where is the exaggeration then? Did we not limp past Gibraltar twice? Did we not give one of our most irredeemable performances in living memory in Georgia?  Were the Swiss and Danes not clearly better sides than us (or was it pure luck that the Swiss made the QF's, and the Danes the SF's, of the actual bloody competition we were trying to qualify for)?? Go on then, where is it?


Edited by The O'Shea - 19 Nov 2023 at 11:06am
We're decent enough..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Tribesman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2023 at 12:47pm
Every country in the western world is facing a one similar issue - children today are more likely to play football on the street on the playstation/PC than on the street!

Most of the rest of Europe hasn't been as badly affected by this.

Why?

Because the level of funding especially state funding they get is far more than here and linked to it the standard of coaching or perhaps more correctly coach education isn't great!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horsebox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2023 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Stickittotheman Stickittotheman wrote:

We are underachieving. Was what Mick had in his campaign significantly better than Kenny has had available? I would argue they were much the same and yet Mick had us one goal from qualifying. MON's team that went to the Euros was probably a step above what we have now but not so far ahead that we should be where we currently are. Manager is to blame. No one else. It has been a disastrous failure.

Mick steadied the ship, nothing more. We limped past Gibraltar twice and disgraced ourselves in Georgia. Denmark and Switzerland always had more than us and were going to qualify ahead of us.

Talk about exaggerating.



Where is the exaggeration then? Did we not limp past Gibraltar twice? Did we not give one of our most irredeemable performances in living memory in Georgia?  Were the Swiss and Danes not clearly better sides than us (or was it pure luck that the Swiss made the QF's, and the Danes the SF's, of the actual bloody competition we were trying to qualify for)?? Go on then, where is it?

Mick never got an opportunity to prepare the team for the campaign. It was straight into the qualifiers.

We beat Gib home and away as expected. 3 draws against Denmark and Switzerland is really good all things considered and then 4 points of Georgia.

I'm not doubting the Georgia away game was very poor, because it was.

But we were still in with a chance of a top 2 finish right up to the last game. We were competitive throughout the group .

We have NOT completed in the campaigns under Kenny.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2023 at 1:25pm
What Kenny did needed doing.  However he is clearly not the man to take this generations of players forward.  The next manager has a decent platform to work from.  However we do ultimately have poor enough players at the highest level.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2023 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Stickittotheman Stickittotheman wrote:

We are underachieving. Was what Mick had in his campaign significantly better than Kenny has had available? I would argue they were much the same and yet Mick had us one goal from qualifying. MON's team that went to the Euros was probably a step above what we have now but not so far ahead that we should be where we currently are. Manager is to blame. No one else. It has been a disastrous failure.

Mick steadied the ship, nothing more. We limped past Gibraltar twice and disgraced ourselves in Georgia. Denmark and Switzerland always had more than us and were going to qualify ahead of us.

Talk about exaggerating.



Where is the exaggeration then? Did we not limp past Gibraltar twice? Did we not give one of our most irredeemable performances in living memory in Georgia?  Were the Swiss and Danes not clearly better sides than us (or was it pure luck that the Swiss made the QF's, and the Danes the SF's, of the actual bloody competition we were trying to qualify for)?? Go on then, where is it?

Mick never got an opportunity to prepare the team for the campaign. It was straight into the qualifiers.

We beat Gib home and away as expected. 3 draws against Denmark and Switzerland is really good all things considered and then 4 points of Georgia.

I'm not doubting the Georgia away game was very poor, because it was.

But we were still in with a chance of a top 2 finish right up to the last game. We were competitive throughout the group .

We have NOT completed in the campaigns under Kenny.



We didn't compete in the euro 2020 group either. We had a kind run of opening fixtures with our first 4 games including Gibraltar x2 and Georgia at home. After that, we didn't win another game (so 1 win in our last 5 games). We finished 3 points behind the Danes and 4 behind the Swiss - it was quite comfortable for them, they were never in any real danger of missing out. Our seeding was 3rd and we finished 3rd, it was at best a par performance.
We're decent enough..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimmy Raggatip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2023 at 1:59pm
yep. It was luck of the fixtures that had us in with a shout at the end.

Kenny has pretty much always had his tougher fixtures front-loaded

away to Serbia, away to Portugal in first 3 games
home to France, away to Greece, away to France 3 of the first 4

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 50%lesssugar&salt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2023 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by Jimmy Raggatip Jimmy Raggatip wrote:

yep. It was luck of the fixtures that had us in with a shout at the end.

Kenny has pretty much always had his tougher fixtures front-loaded

away to Serbia, away to Portugal in first 3 games
home to France, away to Greece, away to France 3 of the first 4


Luxembourg at home was the second game of that campaign
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eoink21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2023 at 3:04pm
Originally posted by DC96 DC96 wrote:

It's both. Worst ever player pool combined with a manager who lost the plot about 12-18 months ago and should've been relieved of duties after the Greece home home.

A better coach absolutely cuts out some of our losses, but would we qualify? I'm highly sceptical. You're either trying to play football and failing or not trying to play football and being left behind. In an ideal world you can be pragmatic and combine two approaches, but we still look so so limited.

The future looks a bit better with Ferguson, Moran, Scales and hopefully Collins can develop beyond what he currently is, but football in Ireland is a skeleton devoid of money, coaching and facilities. Now that shipping dozens of schoolboys off to England doesnt work now that they've to compete against the best of the world for gametime and development. Even our PL players, most are in teams that are arguably the worst crop of promoted sides in history, Ogbene aside all look abysmally bad at that level.

FAI are inept, ignored local football for decades while being systematically corrupt. This current period is the consequences of JD's reign coming home to roost, just look at how many decent players we've produced in the past 15 years, barely any. And now we've an FAI with a stayaway CEO, who dont even drawdown 500k in funding they were entitled to due to their ineptitude, which is now frozen because the cronies wont vote for independent directors meaning they cant get funding at all. 

With rare, and temporary exceptions, your football is only ever as good as those who run it, we have a clownshow FAI and a circus of a team as a result. Fix the former and I'd be optimistic of improvements to the latter, but who really harbours any hope of that happening?

We just don't have the infrastructure in Ireland to compete, the odd export will work out, as every study and report has shown, 90% won't, when you're playing with odds that bad you're always up against it, bar a freak generation of players emerging.



Scales is the future and Collins is a hopeful,? Jaysis. 


Edited by Eoink21 - 19 Nov 2023 at 3:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Terzino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2023 at 6:43pm
McCarthy's second spell was not as bad as some are making out. Georgia and Switzerland away were poor but the other games were good enough. Ireland ended the game in Copenhagen as the stronger team for instance. 

Switzerland really let us down in that group. They completely outplayed Denmark in their two games with them, but inexplicably only took 1 point from what should have been 6.

In anyway, playing Denmark at home for automatic qualification is exactly what people would have wanted when the draw was made.

McGoldrick was the standout player for McCarthy, and Kenny should have done everything to try and keep him on board when he took over. He was exactly the kind of player who could have flourished in an Ireland team that played more ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cabra Hoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2023 at 9:57pm
Just had a look at tables for all 7 of the 5 team groups, groups A-G and Ireland and Lithuania with 6 points each have the lowest points total of any of the 4th placed teams, and Ireland are the only 4th place team who did not get any points from the 3 teams above them in their respective groups. 

Edited by Cabra Hoop - 19 Nov 2023 at 9:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2023 at 12:13am
Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

Just had a look at tables for all 7 of the 5 team groups, groups A-G and Ireland and Lithuania with 6 points each have the lowest points total of any of the 4th placed teams, and Ireland are the only 4th place team who did not get any points from the 3 teams above them in their respective groups. 

Probably because the 3 teams ahead of us are amongst the strongest from their seeding groups. The performances have not been good enough, but the draw is the worst we've ever had for a qualification group.
We're decent enough..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cabra Hoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2023 at 12:24am
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

Just had a look at tables for all 7 of the 5 team groups, groups A-G and Ireland and Lithuania with 6 points each have the lowest points total of any of the 4th placed teams, and Ireland are the only 4th place team who did not get any points from the 3 teams above them in their respective groups. 

Probably because the 3 teams ahead of us are amongst the strongest from their seeding groups. The performances have not been good enough, but the draw is the worst we've ever had for a qualification group.
The draw was unkind which is true, but you would have hoped to get one point at home from the top 3 in the group...I think the groups we had for 82 and 88 were equally as hard.
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