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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Brick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2020 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

The biggest problem isn't really his, but it is  the fact that we could have had no manager at all and still finished third and anybody could see we were going to finish third, so the fact there was absolutely no preparation for the play-offs, that we all knew we were going to get, meant a waste of two years.

It was also predictable that there would be 'what ifs' and we would talk about a missed chance here and there, but we were never in a million years going to beat Denmark at home and the fact we got a point over there is a massive stain on the Danes themselves. They should have thumped us.

What do you mean by no preparation for the play-offs? As predictable as finishing third was, we could hardly prepare for a play-off against unknown opposition in an undetermined location while still involved in qualifiers that could have - against all odds - put us through automatically. Did I read you right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lenny82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2020 at 12:17pm
Originally posted by Banjaxed Banjaxed wrote:

Originally posted by lassassinblanc lassassinblanc wrote:

Originally posted by ConorMac77 ConorMac77 wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Good analysis Terzino but you need more of a multifaceted approach otherwise it's not apples for apples, 

were all these competitive games, all home/away games and you need to include the opposition level comparison.

I believe two of McCarthys wins were vs Gibraltar.

I think both McCarthy and o'Neil were disappointing appointments but I would agree mccarthy slightly less so,
Another 2 of those wins were against piss-poor opposition in Bulgaria and New Zealand in friendlies. The remaining one was v Georgia (a team we couldn't even beat at their ground). But when it came to the crunch against our qualifying rivals, we couldn't do it. Not exactly the sort of reign we were hoping for on his return. Stern Smile

Neither could Denmark.

I agree with Terzinos post alright.

Albeit as people point out those wins were against lower opposition I still thing that boils down to results under O'Neill, teams wouldn't see playing Ireland as a challenge anymore or perhaps we jsut couldn't afford the fees to bring the bigger teams in for friendlies anymore.

I get we didn't qualify but we were damn close, and I'd say closer then we would have been under MON. 

I think we would have lost both home and away to Swiss under MON and possibly Denmark too, Georgia probably would have beaten us too.

I agree we aren't comparing apples with apples  but I think for what he done for the morale of the team and bringing in new players and some back McCarthy done a good job.

I still don't get the fascination people have that Kenny is going to come and turn us into Barcelona 2.0 though. I of course hope he does but I'd be happy if we qualified for the Euros with 2 boring 0-0 draws and penalty wins tbh.

Who are these people? The only fascination I see is people posting about this supposed fascination.

Believe it or not, there are more than 2 football styles/approaches. If you choose to play like O'Neill/McCarthy/Trap, the only other alternative doesn't have to be a version of Barcelona. There are many ways to skin a cat and Barcelona didn't invent the offensive side of football. 

If Kenny turns us into Dundalk 2.0, it will be an improvement!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Devrozex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2020 at 12:25pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

The biggest problem isn't really his, but it is  the fact that we could have had no manager at all and still finished third and anybody could see we were going to finish third, so the fact there was absolutely no preparation for the play-offs, that we all knew we were going to get, meant a waste of two years.

It was also predictable that there would be 'what ifs' and we would talk about a missed chance here and there, but we were never in a million years going to beat Denmark at home and the fact we got a point over there is a massive stain on the Danes themselves. They should have thumped us.
 
Have you been watching a different Denmark to the rest of us? Perhaps with so much old football on the box over the past while you've confused the current crop with the '86 or '92 vintage?
 
I'd agree it was always unlikely but the bit in bold is Moleman-esque hyperbole.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2020 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by Mr Brick Mr Brick wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

The biggest problem isn't really his, but it is  the fact that we could have had no manager at all and still finished third and anybody could see we were going to finish third, so the fact there was absolutely no preparation for the play-offs, that we all knew we were going to get, meant a waste of two years.

It was also predictable that there would be 'what ifs' and we would talk about a missed chance here and there, but we were never in a million years going to beat Denmark at home and the fact we got a point over there is a massive stain on the Danes themselves. They should have thumped us.

What do you mean by no preparation for the play-offs? As predictable as finishing third was, we could hardly prepare for a play-off against unknown opposition in an undetermined location while still involved in qualifiers that could have - against all odds - put us through automatically. Did I read you right?
By building a team capable of playing football against sides around us. Introducing some of the 21s and trying to get a style might have given us some hope. We had a fair idea that the standard of the opposition was going to be weaker than Switzerland or Denmark, but we have spent two years ploughing on with the same tactics and players. The qualifiers were a free shot to try some things out, but by appointing a safe pair of hands like Mick, and giving him the impression that we must try and qualify at all costs, he was always going to try and get us as close as possible. He was given little alternative. 
The blame, as ever, lies with those that appointed him.

Muff: I felt we should have been beaten out the gate. The Danes assumed we wouldn't score and started strolling about after they scored. We deserved credit for keeping ourselves in it and getting a decent result, but it was absolutely dreadful from Denmark. 
Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2020 at 2:52pm
Micks 2nd time with us was a bit like my first year in college with the exception I didn’t get paid a load of money to feic off.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Terzino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2020 at 3:09pm
The O'Neill era should have ended with the 5-1 defeat to Denmark. That was the time to bring in Kenny and allow him to rebuild the team during the Nations League games.

But O'Neill carried on and the team began to zombify. It was emergency time and Mick was brought in to stop the rot. And that's what he did. In international football it's easy to get into a rut and not get out of it for a generation.

You can say that Ireland were guaranteed third place anyway, but there is a massive difference between being only a win away from automatic qualification and being out of it half-way through the campaign with nothing to play for.

Could Kenny have turned things around like that? We'll never know, but a League of Ireland manager is going to be under greater pressure from the fans and media, and the dressing room, than a manager who has worked elsewhere. Mick could be dropped into the deep end, brush off all of the criticism, and get on with it.

Now Kenny inherits a stable team and he also has the experience of working with the younger players. In a round about way, things may have worked out for the best.


Edited by Terzino - 21 May 2020 at 3:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2020 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by Terzino Terzino wrote:

The O'Neill era should have ended with the 5-1 defeat to Denmark. That was the time to bring in Kenny and allow him to rebuild the team during the Nations League games.

But O'Neill carried on and the team began to zombify. It was emergency time and Mick was brought in to stop the rot. And that's what he did. In international football it's easy to get into a rut and not get out of it for a generation.

You can say that Ireland were guaranteed third place anyway, but there is a massive difference between being only a win away from automatic qualification and being out of it half-way through the campaign with nothing to play for.

Could Kenny have turned things around like that? We'll never know, but a League of Ireland manager is going to be under greater pressure from the fans and media, and the dressing room, than a manager who has worked elsewhere. Mick could be dropped into the deep end, brush off all of the criticism, and get on with it.

Now Kenny inherits a stable team and he also has the experience of working with the younger players. In a round about way, things may have worked out for the best.
There isn't a massive difference for Ireland,  because we were never, ever going to beat one of the top two, but there is a massive difference for Mick as he gets to keep a semblance of reputation by saying how close we were. In reality we were miles off, no matter what we say.
Greed has won, big finance has won. Whatever small role elite clubs still play in the local communities from which they grew is dwarfed now by their position as global brands.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Terzino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2020 at 4:47pm
Switzerland were the best team in the group by a distance. Denmark getting four points off of them was pure thievery.

However we were not miles off of Denmark. In all the games we've played against them recently, only O'Neill's bizarre half-time show saw them win against us. They are certainly no great shakes.

Mick gets to keep his reputation because we went from being an unrecognisable Irish team back to being what we expect from Ireland.

After our victory in Vienna the team went on a serious slide.


O'Neill's last 20 games

.........P....W....D....L....F....A

........20....4....8....8...14...23


McCarthy's Record

.........P....W....D....L....F....A

.........10....5....4....1....13....7


Overall that's a good job from Mick.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2020 at 4:49pm
3 of those wins were against Gibraltar twice and Georgia at home .  Other two are friendlies.

Edited by Baldrick - 21 May 2020 at 4:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Terzino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2020 at 5:09pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

3 of those wins were against Gibraltar twice and Georgia at home .  Other two are friendlies.

That's right. 

But of the other games only Switzerland away and Georgia away were poor performances. The rest were decent to good. 

Previously we had been getting below par performances as standard.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2020 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by Terzino Terzino wrote:

Switzerland were the best team in the group by a distance. Denmark getting four points off of them was pure thievery.

However we were not miles off of Denmark. In all the games we've played against them recently, only O'Neill's bizarre half-time show saw them win against us. They are certainly no great shakes.

Mick gets to keep his reputation because we went from being an unrecognisable Irish team back to being what we expect from Ireland.

After our victory in Vienna the team went on a serious slide.


O'Neill's last 20 games

.........P....W....D....L....F....A

........20....4....8....8...14...23


McCarthy's Record

.........P....W....D....L....F....A

.........10....5....4....1....13....7


Overall that's a good job from Mick.
The only game where they really needed to beat us, they did. They needed a draw in Dublin and comfortably got it. Complacency cost them at home. The NL games were seen as good results for them. In fact, the only result they would be disappointed with is the 1-1 in Copenhagen and that is the only result we were happy with; bar maybe the scoreless dead rubber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irishmufc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2020 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Mr Brick Mr Brick wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

The biggest problem isn't really his, but it is  the fact that we could have had no manager at all and still finished third and anybody could see we were going to finish third, so the fact there was absolutely no preparation for the play-offs, that we all knew we were going to get, meant a waste of two years.

It was also predictable that there would be 'what ifs' and we would talk about a missed chance here and there, but we were never in a million years going to beat Denmark at home and the fact we got a point over there is a massive stain on the Danes themselves. They should have thumped us.

What do you mean by no preparation for the play-offs? As predictable as finishing third was, we could hardly prepare for a play-off against unknown opposition in an undetermined location while still involved in qualifiers that could have - against all odds - put us through automatically. Did I read you right?
By building a team capable of playing football against sides around us. Introducing some of the 21s and trying to get a style might have given us some hope. We had a fair idea that the standard of the opposition was going to be weaker than Switzerland or Denmark, but we have spent two years ploughing on with the same tactics and players. The qualifiers were a free shot to try some things out, but by appointing a safe pair of hands like Mick, and giving him the impression that we must try and qualify at all costs, he was always going to try and get us as close as possible. He was given little alternative. 
The blame, as ever, lies with those that appointed him.

Muff: I felt we should have been beaten out the gate. The Danes assumed we wouldn't score and started strolling about after they scored. We deserved credit for keeping ourselves in it and getting a decent result, but it was absolutely dreadful from Denmark. 

They certainly should've won both games not to mention the two Nations League fixtures. We were lucky to get 4 draws in all those games. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote planning Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2020 at 10:58pm
Originally posted by Terzino Terzino wrote:

Switzerland were the best team in the group by a distance. Denmark getting four points off of them was pure thievery.

However we were not miles off of Denmark. In all the games we've played against them recently, only O'Neill's bizarre half-time show saw them win against us. They are certainly no great shakes.

Mick gets to keep his reputation because we went from being an unrecognisable Irish team back to being what we expect from Ireland. 

We were in a three average team shootout for qualification, and we finished third. It's not a good campaign, it's not a bad campaign. It's mediocrity, and it wasn't good enough. Unlike every other group, those who finished above us have no hope of winning the competition. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Brick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2020 at 6:41am
What's the potential of Switzerland's emerging youngsters and Denmark's emerging youngsters? Or any other country's emerging youngsters. Maybe their emerging youngsters will be better than our emerging youngsters when they have finally emerged. Maybe they'll all cancel out each other and we'll still be third best, albeit with a more acceptable level of mediocrity. Stephen will sort it out.
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