Martin O'Neill... |
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rolo
Moderator Group Joined: 05 Aug 2010 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 9202 |
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It is indeed. |
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"I'm off to see the Queen tomorrow too, don't forget that"
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Stoked Up
Jack Charlton Joined: 22 Oct 2009 Location: España Status: Offline Points: 6674 |
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You are of course correct in noting that agewise they should still have been in their respective primes. Keane, Duff and Given had been around so long by the time of the WC of 2010, they would've competed in six or seven qualifying campaigns, but they were most definitely fading stars at least by the end of Trap's first campaign. I suppose I'm thinking of the Trap 'era' '08-'13 as a whole - because it's concluded - moreso than the actual onset and that Keane, Given, Duff & O'Shea had seen their respective club careers stall somewhat from their earlier heady days with bigger clubs. It's probably too early to catagorise O'Neill's tenure in the same fashion as his players careers are still been written, but it's easily noted that the current crop don't play for top level clubs and have hardly any winners medals between them. Edited by Stoked Up - 23 Jun 2017 at 1:02am |
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planning
Ray Houghton Football version of Comical Ali. Joined: 17 Mar 2012 Status: Offline Points: 3836 |
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Honestly, it was 9 qualifying wins, 6 draws, and 0 defeats in his first 15 away qualifiers. No matter how poor the football was, how predictable the tactics, how long the team was known before the game, we just couldn't be beaten. In his last campaign, despite the hammering by the World Champions, (when we changed the tactics and had our ars kicked) we were joint second, level with our rivals, and had a great chance of a play off until the night of the Sweden game. 4 days later, he was sacked in Vienna airport. It went wrong in the last week but the campaign wasn't the write off it's painted as.
Sorry, that's not good enough. We played 4-4-2 under Trap, to play to our strengths. People said we were predictable and shouldn't play it. So he was fired for someone else to play 4-4-2 on a regular basis. We played long ball on a regular basis under Trap, to play to our strengths. People said it was boring and shouldn't play it. So he was fired, so someone else could play long ball on a regular basis. The poster above finds it exciting. We played Glenn Whelan on a regular basis. Trap was called a charletan for playing him. So he was fired. Today we play Glenn Whelan on a regular basis. His coach is lauded as our most successful in 15 years. We didn't play Wes Hoolahan on a regular basis. Trap was called a dinosaur for not playing him. So he was fired. Today, we don't play Wes Hoolahan on a regular basis. His coach is lauded as our most successful in 15 years. Half of Europe reached the Euros in France and most got out of their groups. It was not exactly the splitting of the atom. The last man took us to our first tournament in 10 years, when it was much more difficult to get there, and progress further. We have conceded 15 goals in our last two Euro finals, an average of +2 per game. But it is one response for MON and a different response for Trap in similar circumstances. I can't and won't accept that level of hypocrisy. |
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Territorial
Jack Charlton Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
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But even Martin's greatest fans must surely acknowledge that he was lucky that 3rd place got you a play-off for Euro2016. Had that not been the case, it wouldn't necessarily have made him a better or a worse manager, but it would surely have coloured opinions as to his performance in the job. Edited by Territorial - 23 Jun 2017 at 4:19pm |
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irishmufc
Robbie Keane I love Vulvas Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Location: Dublin Status: Offline Points: 24975 |
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But you're not comparing like with like as the format was different. Trap knew 2nd was needed for a playoff and O'Neill knew that 3rd was required. Ireland also could've finished 2nd or 4th if O'Neill had the same scenario as Trap. It's very plausible that games would've worked out differently, maybe more points taken off Poland/Scotland and less of Germany. It's impossible to compare as the criteria is different. If O'Neill finished 3rd in a group where 2nd was needed for the playoff, I think he'd probably be given another campaign imo.
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Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
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Territorial
Jack Charlton Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 5817 |
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For at the outset, Trap will have been preparing his campaign plan to finish 2nd (or better). Likewise Martin, since he won't have wanted to face the lottery of a play-off. Of course there are a whole number of other factors at play (players available to each of them, standard of opposition etc), but in the end, Trap achieved his aim whereas Martin didn't. Or to put it another way, even if you can't blame Martin for playing his Get-Out-Of-Jail card successfully, neither can you credit him for having one either. (At least not vis-a-vis Trap)
But it's safe to say it would further have angered the Trap Camp Edited by Territorial - 23 Jun 2017 at 4:46pm |
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irishmufc
Robbie Keane I love Vulvas Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Location: Dublin Status: Offline Points: 24975 |
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The aim was to qualify and it was achieved. Obviously you'd prefer to finish second than go through a playoff and Trap had the more difficult task but again it's not comparable when the criteria is different whether it works in favour of O'Neill or Trap, just as it's not comparable when only 1 team qualified out of groups for world cup/Euro tournaments in the 80s. A comparison with Trap is more appropriate now in Ireland's current group where second not 3rd place is most likely a guaranteed playoff spot. For the record I'm not bashing Trap because I'm pro O'Neill and would even make the point that Trap's world cup qualifying groups were more difficult than O'Neill's current one for the simple fact you had a heavyweight in both (Italy, 2010 campaign & Germany, 2014 campaign) which realistically cuts out the automatic 1st spot position. |
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Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
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Stoked Up
Jack Charlton Joined: 22 Oct 2009 Location: España Status: Offline Points: 6674 |
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I've no idea wtf you're arguing about. Trap was not fired for playing 4-4-2, long ball tactics, Glen Whelan, or not playing Wes. He was fired because he failed to qualify or at least make a decent fist for second place. You clearly forget that I was one of Trap's strongest supporters here before the wheels came off. O'Neill and co wont be immune should a similar fate befall them. That's not hypocrisy just common sense, but reading through your posts, I'm not sure if you understand either.
Edited by Stoked Up - 23 Jun 2017 at 11:29pm |
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rolo
Moderator Group Joined: 05 Aug 2010 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 9202 |
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This is the most stupid post ever The reason for the different response is: at Euro 2012 we conceded 9 goals in 3 games, whereas at Euro 2016 we conceded 6 goals in 4 games. The average conceded was 3 per game in Euro 2012, whereas it was 1.5 at Euro 2016. Further, Euro 2012 consisted of 3 hammerings. Euro 2016, consisted of a draw, a win (including singularly the greatest moment experienced by an Irish team at a major tournament) and two defeats, one in which we lead for over 50 minutes. There's no comparison. You can't go averaging the goals conceded across both tournaments like that, you're some gobsh*te
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"I'm off to see the Queen tomorrow too, don't forget that"
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OnTheOneRoad
Ray Houghton Joined: 06 Nov 2014 Location: Dublin Status: Offline Points: 4190 |
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No thank you Turkish......I'm sweet enough
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irishmufc
Robbie Keane I love Vulvas Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Location: Dublin Status: Offline Points: 24975 |
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Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
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rolo
Moderator Group Joined: 05 Aug 2010 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 9202 |
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"I'm off to see the Queen tomorrow too, don't forget that"
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FrankosHereNow
Roy Keane I like Klopp Joined: 02 Jun 2011 Location: El Sadar Status: Offline Points: 12139 |
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Bo Jackson
Liam Brady Joined: 31 Dec 2014 Location: 1st and Goal Status: Online Points: 2396 |
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For the day that's in it Beating Italy was superb but how does it eclipse the above? |
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pre Madonna
Robbie Keane I am MALDING Joined: 30 Nov 2014 Location: Trumpton Status: Offline Points: 44659 |
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rolo
Moderator Group Joined: 05 Aug 2010 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 9202 |
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Subjective, I suppose. For me, there's nothing that surpasses a late winner that snatches qualification to the next round from the jaws of elimination. I do recall that shootout in Italia 90 quite clearly too and it was a special moment. I dunno, I'd have to think about it. For me the Brady goal would pip it for excitement and drama, but then the penalty shootout was at a World Cup..... Although the Houghton goal at '88 was against England, it doesn't touch the others in terms of significance. As we know, it ultimately didnt lead to our progression to the next round. Similarly, Robbie Keane's goal against Germany was dramatic, but we'd have progressed without it.
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"I'm off to see the Queen tomorrow too, don't forget that"
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planning
Ray Houghton Football version of Comical Ali. Joined: 17 Mar 2012 Status: Offline Points: 3836 |
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....
....
I know that. As I said, we made a decent fist of second place before the Sweden game here. Despite that, you remember the public outrage spewed here and in the media every game for playing 442 longball football, with Whelan and without Wes, and booing after every home game we didn't win. In fact, they were booing as far back as his first home win against Cyprus, for "only" winning 1-0.
Yes I can, and when applicable Yes I will. But 9 + 6 = 15 in any language. And 15/7 = +2 whatever way you want to cover the figures up. Euro 2012 saw 1 defeat by more than 2 goals. Euro 2016 saw 1 defeat by more than 2 goals. Overall there were 5 of them across the 7 games.
Football was over 90 minutes the last time I looked, so just leading for over 50 minutes means nothing whatsoever. As for "the greatest moment by an Irish team at a major tournament" you're near 30 years behind the rest of us. |
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Gary McKay
Roy Keane Yo Adrian Joined: 21 Jul 2007 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 13816 |
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Incorrect. Germany would have qualified if Keane didn't score and they would have put out a weakened team in their last game with Cameroon. |
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"Smalling and Jones.... have the potential to be the PL’s best ever pairing in my opinion." - SlurAlex
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