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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 10:27pm
Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

And that's why we were 2nd place in the WC group, unbeaten with the second highest amount of points ever


It is indeed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stoked Up Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2017 at 1:02am
Originally posted by rolo rolo wrote:

Originally posted by Stoked Up Stoked Up wrote:



Comparing the the two managers style of play is futile as they were both handed pretty much the same standard of players to work with. Whilst Trap had the slight advantage of some ageing stars, Mon appears to have a lesser hand, but the up and coming bunch could yet prove to be of better overall quality, depending on how they progress.


I dont think you can just disregard it that easily tho. It's not "pretty much the same" and Trap did not have the "slight advantage of some ageing stars"

When Trap got the job, Robbie Keane was 27, when O'Neill got the job, Keane was 33.

When Trap got the job, Damien Duff was 28, when O'Neill got the job, Duff had retired.

When Trap got the job, Richard Dunne was 28, when O'Neill got the job, Dunne had retired, or was about to. Either way he never played for O'Neill.

When Trap got the job, Wes Hoolahan was 25, when O'Neill got the job, Hoolahan was 31.

When Trap got the job, Shay Given was 31 (hardly ageing for a goalkeeper), when O'Neill got the job, Given was 37.

When Trap got the job, John O'Shea was 26, when O'Neill got the job, O'Shea was 32.


Only fair to call it as it is.

You are of course correct in noting that agewise they should still have been in their respective primes. Keane, Duff and Given had been around so long by the time of the WC of 2010, they would've competed in six or seven qualifying campaigns, but they were most definitely fading stars at least by the end of Trap's first campaign.

I suppose I'm thinking of the Trap 'era'  '08-'13 as a whole - because it's concluded - moreso than the actual onset and that Keane, Given, Duff & O'Shea had seen their respective club careers stall somewhat from their earlier heady days with bigger clubs.

It's probably too early to catagorise O'Neill's tenure in the same fashion as his players careers are still been written, but it's easily noted that the current crop don't play for top level clubs and have hardly any winners medals between them. 


Edited by Stoked Up - 23 Jun 2017 at 1:02am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote planning Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2017 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by kearney304 kearney304 wrote:

Honestly between him and the other fella. I'm just done. I think I was at every away in Traps campaign and it was usually a good trip followed by sh*t underwhelming football. Slovakia away when we drew when they asked us to beat them. This campaign for me I am actually excited to watch Ireland again. Yes I know sometimes we are flat but I actually believe before a ball kicks that we won't be beaten.


Honestly, it was 9 qualifying wins, 6 draws, and 0 defeats in his first 15 away qualifiers. No matter how poor the football was, how predictable the tactics, how long the team was known before the game, we just couldn't be beaten.

In his last campaign, despite the hammering by the World Champions, (when we changed the tactics and had our ars kicked) we were joint second, level with our rivals, and had a great chance of a play off until the night of the Sweden game. 4 days later, he was sacked in Vienna airport. It went wrong in the last week but the campaign wasn't the write off it's painted as.

Originally posted by Stoked Up Stoked Up wrote:

I don't recall the remit for any Irish manager being anything other than qualify for tournaments and then do as well as they can when they got there. 
It's a load of nonsense that some people here are saying that the current regime were expected to have us playing in a more fluid style, no more than it was a requirement of the previous regime. Trap was let go because of our failure to make the last WC or at least the playoffs. O'Neill will prosper or fail by the same yardstick.

Comparing the the two managers style of play is futile as they were both handed pretty much the same standard of players to work with.


Sorry, that's not good enough.

We played 4-4-2 under Trap, to play to our strengths. People said we were predictable and shouldn't play it. So he was fired for someone else to play 4-4-2 on a regular basis.

We played long ball on a regular basis under Trap, to play to our strengths. People said it was boring and shouldn't play it. So he was fired, so someone else could play long ball on a regular basis. The poster above finds it exciting.

We played Glenn Whelan on a regular basis. Trap was called a charletan for playing him. So he was fired. Today we play Glenn Whelan on a regular basis. His coach is lauded as our most successful in 15 years.

We didn't play Wes Hoolahan on a regular basis. Trap was called a dinosaur for not playing him. So he was fired. Today, we don't play Wes Hoolahan on a regular basis. His coach is lauded as our most successful in 15 years.

Half of Europe reached the Euros in France and most got out of their groups. It was not exactly the splitting of the atom. The last man took us to our first tournament in 10 years, when it was much more difficult to get there, and progress further.

We have conceded 15 goals in our last two Euro finals, an average of +2 per game. But it is one response for MON and a different response for Trap in similar circumstances. I can't and won't accept that level of hypocrisy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2017 at 4:18pm
Originally posted by planning planning wrote:

Half of Europe reached the Euros in France and most got out of their groups. It was not exactly the splitting of the atom. The last man took us to our first tournament in 10 years, when it was much more difficult to get there, and progress further.
Although I like and admire Martin, I have no dog in the "MON vs Trap" fight.

But even Martin's greatest fans must surely acknowledge that he was lucky that 3rd place got you a play-off for Euro2016.

Had that not been the case, it wouldn't necessarily have made him a better or a worse manager, but it would surely have coloured opinions as to his performance in the job.


Edited by Territorial - 23 Jun 2017 at 4:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irishmufc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2017 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by planning planning wrote:

Half of Europe reached the Euros in France and most got out of their groups. It was not exactly the splitting of the atom. The last man took us to our first tournament in 10 years, when it was much more difficult to get there, and progress further.
Although I like and admire Martin, I have no dog in the "MON vs Trap" fight.

But even Martin's greatest fans must surely acknowledge that he was lucky that 3rd place got you a play-off for Euro2016.

Had that not been the case, it wouldn't necessarily have made him a better or a worse manager, but it would surely have coloured opinions as to his performance in the job.

But you're not comparing like with like as the format was different. Trap knew 2nd was needed for a playoff and O'Neill knew that 3rd was required. Ireland also could've finished 2nd or 4th if O'Neill had the same scenario as Trap. It's very plausible that games would've worked out differently, maybe more points taken off Poland/Scotland and less of Germany. It's impossible to compare as the criteria is different. 

If O'Neill finished 3rd in a group where 2nd was needed for the playoff, I think he'd probably be given another campaign imo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Territorial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2017 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by planning planning wrote:

Half of Europe reached the Euros in France and most got out of their groups. It was not exactly the splitting of the atom. The last man took us to our first tournament in 10 years, when it was much more difficult to get there, and progress further.
Although I like and admire Martin, I have no dog in the "MON vs Trap" fight.

But even Martin's greatest fans must surely acknowledge that he was lucky that 3rd place got you a play-off for Euro2016.

Had that not been the case, it wouldn't necessarily have made him a better or a worse manager, but it would surely have coloured opinions as to his performance in the job.

But you're not comparing like with like as the format was different. Trap knew 2nd was needed for a playoff and O'Neill knew that 3rd was required. Ireland also could've finished 2nd or 4th if O'Neill had the same scenario as Trap. It's very plausible that games would've worked out differently, maybe more points taken off Poland/Scotland and less of Germany. It's impossible to compare as the criteria is different.
I'm not sure that reasoning stands up.

For at the outset, Trap will have been preparing his campaign plan to finish 2nd (or better).

Likewise Martin, since he won't have wanted to face the lottery of a play-off.

Of course there are a whole number of other factors at play (players available to each of them, standard of opposition etc), but in the end, Trap achieved his aim whereas Martin didn't.

Or to put it another way, even if you can't blame Martin for playing his Get-Out-Of-Jail card successfully, neither can you credit him for having one either. (At least not vis-a-vis Trap)

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

If O'Neill finished 3rd in a group where 2nd was needed for the playoff, I think he'd probably be given another campaign imo.
I can't say whether that would have happened or not, or whether it would have been justified.

But it's safe to say it would further have angered the Trap Camp Wink


Edited by Territorial - 23 Jun 2017 at 4:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irishmufc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2017 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by planning planning wrote:

Half of Europe reached the Euros in France and most got out of their groups. It was not exactly the splitting of the atom. The last man took us to our first tournament in 10 years, when it was much more difficult to get there, and progress further.
Although I like and admire Martin, I have no dog in the "MON vs Trap" fight.

But even Martin's greatest fans must surely acknowledge that he was lucky that 3rd place got you a play-off for Euro2016.

Had that not been the case, it wouldn't necessarily have made him a better or a worse manager, but it would surely have coloured opinions as to his performance in the job.

But you're not comparing like with like as the format was different. Trap knew 2nd was needed for a playoff and O'Neill knew that 3rd was required. Ireland also could've finished 2nd or 4th if O'Neill had the same scenario as Trap. It's very plausible that games would've worked out differently, maybe more points taken off Poland/Scotland and less of Germany. It's impossible to compare as the criteria is different. 

If O'Neill finished 3rd in a group where 2nd was needed for the playoff, I think he'd probably be given another campaign imo.
I'm not sure that reasoning stands up.

For at the outset, Trap will have been preparing his campaign plan to finish 2nd (or better).

Likewise Martin, since he won't have wanted to face the lottery of a play-off.

Of course there are a whole number of other factors at play (players available to each of them, standard of opposition etc), but in the end, Trap achieved his aim whereas Martin didn't.

Or to put it another way, even if you can't blame Martin for playing his Get-Out-Of-Jail card successfully, neither can you credit him for having one either. (At least not vis-a-vis Trap)



The aim was to qualify and it was achieved. 

Obviously you'd prefer to finish second than go through a playoff  and Trap had the more difficult task but again it's not comparable when the criteria is different whether it works in favour of O'Neill or Trap, just as it's not comparable when only 1 team qualified out of groups for world cup/Euro tournaments in the 80s. 

A comparison with Trap is more appropriate now in Ireland's current group where second not 3rd place is most likely a guaranteed playoff spot. For the record I'm not bashing Trap because I'm pro O'Neill and would even make the point that Trap's world cup qualifying groups were more difficult than O'Neill's current one for the simple fact you had a heavyweight in both (Italy, 2010 campaign & Germany, 2014 campaign) which realistically cuts out the automatic 1st spot position. 

 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stoked Up Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2017 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by planning planning wrote:

 
Originally posted by Stoked Up Stoked Up wrote:

I don't recall the remit for any Irish manager being anything other than qualify for tournaments and then do as well as they can when they got there. 
It's a load of nonsense that some people here are saying that the current regime were expected to have us playing in a more fluid style, no more than it was a requirement of the previous regime. Trap was let go because of our failure to make the last WC or at least the playoffs. O'Neill will prosper or fail by the same yardstick.

Comparing the the two managers style of play is futile as they were both handed pretty much the same standard of players to work with.


Sorry, that's not good enough.

We played 4-4-2 under Trap, to play to our strengths. People said we were predictable and shouldn't play it. So he was fired for someone else to play 4-4-2 on a regular basis.

We played long ball on a regular basis under Trap, to play to our strengths. People said it was boring and shouldn't play it. So he was fired, so someone else could play long ball on a regular basis. The poster above finds it exciting.

We played Glenn Whelan on a regular basis. Trap was called a charletan for playing him. So he was fired. Today we play Glenn Whelan on a regular basis. His coach is lauded as our most successful in 15 years.

We didn't play Wes Hoolahan on a regular basis. Trap was called a dinosaur for not playing him. So he was fired. Today, we don't play Wes Hoolahan on a regular basis. His coach is lauded as our most successful in 15 years.

Half of Europe reached the Euros in France and most got out of their groups. It was not exactly the splitting of the atom. The last man took us to our first tournament in 10 years, when it was much more difficult to get there, and progress further.

We have conceded 15 goals in our last two Euro finals, an average of +2 per game. But it is one response for MON and a different response for Trap in similar circumstances. I can't and won't accept that level of hypocrisy.
I've no idea wtf you're arguing about. Trap was not fired for playing 4-4-2, long ball tactics, Glen Whelan, or not playing Wes. He was fired because he failed to qualify or at least make a decent fist for second place. You clearly forget that I was one of Trap's strongest supporters here before the wheels came off. O'Neill and co wont be immune should a similar fate befall them. That's not hypocrisy just common sense, but reading through your posts, I'm not sure if you understand either.


Edited by Stoked Up - 23 Jun 2017 at 11:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2017 at 8:31am
Originally posted by planning planning wrote:

We have conceded 15 goals in our last two Euro finals, an average of +2 per game. But it is one response for MON and a different response for Trap in similar circumstances. I can't and won't accept that level of hypocrisy.

This is the most stupid post ever LOL

The reason for the different response is: at Euro 2012 we conceded 9 goals in 3 games, whereas at Euro 2016 we conceded 6 goals in 4 games. 

The average conceded was 3 per game in Euro 2012, whereas it was 1.5 at Euro 2016.

Further, Euro 2012 consisted of 3 hammerings. Euro 2016, consisted of a draw, a win (including singularly the greatest moment experienced by an Irish team at a major tournament) and two defeats, one in which we lead for over 50 minutes.


There's no comparison. You can't go averaging the goals conceded across both tournaments like that, you're some gobsh*te LOLLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OnTheOneRoad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2017 at 11:13am
Originally posted by rolo rolo wrote:

Originally posted by planning planning wrote:

We have conceded 15 goals in our last two Euro finals, an average of +2 per game. But it is one response for MON and a different response for Trap in similar circumstances. I can't and won't accept that level of hypocrisy.


This is the most stupid post ever 

The reason for the different response is: at Euro 2012 we conceded 9 goals in 3 games, whereas at Euro 2016 we conceded 6 goals in 4 games. 

The average conceded was 3 per game in Euro 2012, whereas it was 1.5 at Euro 2016.

Further, Euro 2012 consisted of 3 hammerings. Euro 2016, consisted of a draw, a win (including singularly the greatest moment experienced by an Irish team at a major tournament) and two defeats, one in which we lead for over 50 minutes.


There's no comparison. You can't go averaging the goals conceded across both tournaments like that, you're some gobsh*te 
I just think it's unfair that in our last two home games against Germany we've conceded 6 goals, an average of 3 per game, and yet trap gets slaughtered for his result and MON gets lauded
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2017 at 3:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bo Jackson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2017 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by rolo rolo wrote:

Euro 2016, consisted of a draw, a win (including singularly the greatest moment experienced by an Irish team at a major tournament)


For the day that's in it



Beating Italy was superb but how does it eclipse the above?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2017 at 7:00pm
Originally posted by Bo Jackson Bo Jackson wrote:

Originally posted by rolo rolo wrote:

Euro 2016, consisted of a draw, a win (including singularly the greatest moment experienced by an Irish team at a major tournament)


For the day that's in it



Beating Italy was superb but how does it eclipse the above?

Subjective, I suppose. 

For me, there's nothing that surpasses a late winner that snatches qualification to the next round from the jaws of elimination.

I do recall that shootout in Italia 90 quite clearly too and it was a special moment.  I dunno, I'd have to think about it. 

For me the Brady goal would pip it for excitement and drama, but then the penalty shootout was at a World Cup.....

Although the Houghton goal at '88 was against England, it doesn't touch the others in terms of significance. As we know, it ultimately didnt lead to our progression to the next round.

Similarly, Robbie Keane's goal against Germany was dramatic, but we'd have progressed without it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote planning Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2017 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by Stoked Up Stoked Up wrote:

I've no idea wtf you're arguing about.

....
Originally posted by planning planning wrote:

It is one response for MON and a different response for Trap in similar circumstances. I can't and won't accept that level of hypocrisy.

....
Originally posted by Stoked Up Stoked Up wrote:

Trap was not fired for playing 4-4-2, long ball tactics, Glen Whelan, or not playing Wes. He was fired because he failed to qualify or at least make a decent fist for second place. You clearly forget that I was one of Trap's strongest supporters here before the wheels came off.


I know that. As I said, we made a decent fist of second place before the Sweden game here. Despite that, you remember the public outrage spewed here and in the media every game for playing 442 longball football, with Whelan and without Wes, and booing after every home game we didn't win. In fact, they were booing as far back as his first home win against Cyprus, for "only" winning 1-0.

Originally posted by rolo rolo wrote:

The reason for the different response is: at Euro 2012 we conceded 9 goals in 3 games, whereas at Euro 2016 we conceded 6 goals in 4 games. 

There's no comparison. You can't go averaging the goals conceded across both tournaments like that


Yes I can, and when applicable Yes I will. But 9 + 6 = 15 in any language. And 15/7 = +2 whatever way you want to cover the figures up. Euro 2012 saw 1 defeat by more than 2 goals. Euro 2016 saw 1 defeat by more than 2 goals. Overall there were 5 of them across the 7 games.

Quote Euro 2016, consisted of (singularly the greatest moment experienced by an Irish team at a major tournament) and two defeats, one in which we lead for over 50 minutes.


Football was over 90 minutes the last time I looked, so just leading for over 50 minutes means nothing whatsoever.

As for "the greatest moment by an Irish team at a major tournament" you're near 30 years behind the rest of us.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary McKay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2017 at 9:22am
Originally posted by rolo rolo wrote:

Similarly, Robbie Keane's goal against Germany was dramatic, but we'd have progressed without it.
Incorrect.
 
Germany would have qualified if Keane didn't score and they would have put out a weakened team in their last game with Cameroon.
 
 
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