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Roberto Baggio View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberto Baggio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2021 at 10:19am
I know all that. 

I was specifically responding to Shedites question of "what ownership model would give them the money to compete". 

This one should IMO
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Drumcondra 69er Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2021 at 10:39am
Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Yeah United definitely haven't got the results that their expenditure deserved over the past 7/8 years. Probably makes Fergie's late success even more impressive, that he did that with the Glazers behind him

Think Howard Webb's backing was more key tbh. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Artie Ziff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2021 at 11:14am
Man United are the club that benefitted most from moving into the Premier League and Sky deals era. The Glaziers take over is just the playing out of the commercialisation of every aspect of the top teams in England and Europe. The European Super League in whatever format will eventually come about after this.  

It's very difficult to see how anything is going to change, or how it would be even legally done? 

The best outcome from these protests is another billionaire or whitewashing country takes over the club. It's hardly solving the issue they are protesting about. 
It would damage this forums' reputation
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shedite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2021 at 11:36am
Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

I know all that. 

I was specifically responding to Shedites question of "what ownership model would give them the money to compete". 

This one should IMO
I suppose really my question is if there's an ownership model that allows them to compete and keeps the fans happy?

Would United fans have been happy being Europa League regulars if they had the budget of Everton say?
Or do ya think competing at the top requires a questionable owner these days. 
It wasn't a direct question at you or specific to United, most clubs have the same problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TBWRA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2021 at 11:43am
Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Not aimed at the United fans, but is there any ownership model that would give them the money to compete, and not be owned by a corporate type. 

Bayern is the one that's ususally mentioned, are they really fan owned?

They’ve spent £1.2 billion on transfer fees since 2010
Who? United or Baynen? 

It's all lovely to think football would be better without the Oil tycoons and US owners, but what's the alternative? Is there an alternative that allows teams compete?
United

Which would suggest that this current ownership model should have them competing
I'm not getting your point, are ya saying they are spending loads so they should be competing? They're second, to a team that has even more money. If it's money we're talking about, they are where they should be aren't they?

My original question was whether there's a ownership model that keeps fans happy from a ethical perspective and a footballing perspective. Tough to see if there is

Maybe I misunderstood your question, but having spent £1.2 billion since 2010 they should be competing for the top trophies. 
Yes of course the way the Glazers have heaped hundreds of millions of pounds of debt onto the club and used it as a cash cow isn't good, but on the field, poor management and player recruitment is as much to blame for their lack of top trophies in the past 8 years than anything, in my opinion. 

I understand many aren't protesting about on the field performances here, but was just responding to your question about an ownership model that could get them to compete. I think its very possible that they could be competing under this ownership model had they had better management on the footballing side of things



That also falls at the feet of the Glazers , under their watch .

Failure to move players on in the hope of securing a transfer fees and leaving the squad top heavy with many on huge wages has resulted in a huge wage bill its not down to investment or successful transfer windows, the years they have invested have been when they were frightened United may have a spell out of the CL.





Edited by TBWRA - 04 May 2021 at 11:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TBWRA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2021 at 11:58am
Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

I know all that. 

I was specifically responding to Shedites question of "what ownership model would give them the money to compete". 

This one should IMO
I suppose really my question is if there's an ownership model that allows them to compete and keeps the fans happy?

Would United fans have been happy being Europa League regulars if they had the budget of Everton say?
Or do ya think competing at the top requires a questionable owner these days. 
It wasn't a direct question at you or specific to United, most clubs have the same problem.

United could outspend City and Chelsea put together from their own resources if the club was not being used by the Glazers.
"The Football Grounds of Europe" about Dalymount that :- "You walk down lanes you'd expect to find a backstreet mechanic only to stumble onto a national stadium steeped in tradition and history"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wheelo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2021 at 12:02pm
This is a good piece:


Artie, these protests have been going on and off for 16 years now. It kicked off when the Glazer's wanted to buy the club with personal loans and then transfer these loans on to the club. That should've been a wake up call for english football. It wasnt. Instead since then, theres loads of examples of dodgy f**kers been allowed take over clubs. If these protests can help prevent other dodgy f**kers taking over clubs, what a success.

Thus 50 plus 1 thing will never come in. 

But at least if they strive to it, better supporter focus and consultation might come in for clubs eg making football affordable for the working class, etc.
TRAP OUT!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrendanD88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2021 at 12:41pm
Originally posted by Drumcondra 69er Drumcondra 69er wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Yeah United definitely haven't got the results that their expenditure deserved over the past 7/8 years. Probably makes Fergie's late success even more impressive, that he did that with the Glazers behind him

Think Howard Webb's backing was more key tbh. 

Love this banter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Artie Ziff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2021 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by Wheelo Wheelo wrote:

This is a good piece:


Artie, these protests have been going on and off for 16 years now. It kicked off when the Glazer's wanted to buy the club with personal loans and then transfer these loans on to the club. That should've been a wake up call for english football. It wasnt. Instead since then, theres loads of examples of dodgy f**kers been allowed take over clubs. If these protests can help prevent other dodgy f**kers taking over clubs, what a success.

Thus 50 plus 1 thing will never come in. 

But at least if they strive to it, better supporter focus and consultation might come in for clubs eg making football affordable for the working class, etc.

I fully get why they are protesting and agree with them. What's the end goal with the protests and ownership rules? It certainly isn't about trying to help other clubs. 

Arsenal's fans protests are similar in getting Kroenke out and in comes the Spotify billionaire to save the day, a man who made his money from ripping off musicians on music royalties.   
It would damage this forums' reputation
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borussia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2021 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by Artie Ziff Artie Ziff wrote:

Originally posted by Wheelo Wheelo wrote:

This is a good piece:


Artie, these protests have been going on and off for 16 years now. It kicked off when the Glazer's wanted to buy the club with personal loans and then transfer these loans on to the club. That should've been a wake up call for english football. It wasnt. Instead since then, theres loads of examples of dodgy f**kers been allowed take over clubs. If these protests can help prevent other dodgy f**kers taking over clubs, what a success.

Thus 50 plus 1 thing will never come in. 

But at least if they strive to it, better supporter focus and consultation might come in for clubs eg making football affordable for the working class, etc.

I fully get why they are protesting and agree with them. What's the end goal with the protests and ownership rules? It certainly isn't about trying to help other clubs. 

Arsenal's fans protests are similar in getting Kroenke out and in comes the Spotify billionaire to save the day, a man who made his money from ripping off musicians on music royalties.   

Most organised fan groups want board representation - That is something that is realistic. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shedite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2021 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by TBWRA TBWRA wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

I know all that. 

I was specifically responding to Shedites question of "what ownership model would give them the money to compete". 

This one should IMO
I suppose really my question is if there's an ownership model that allows them to compete and keeps the fans happy?

Would United fans have been happy being Europa League regulars if they had the budget of Everton say?
Or do ya think competing at the top requires a questionable owner these days. 
It wasn't a direct question at you or specific to United, most clubs have the same problem.

United could outspend City and Chelsea put together from their own resources if the club was not being used by the Glazers.
What? Just on ticket sales/merchandise less wages? You think that's more spending power than Oil tycoons?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shedite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2021 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by Artie Ziff Artie Ziff wrote:

Originally posted by Wheelo Wheelo wrote:

This is a good piece:


Artie, these protests have been going on and off for 16 years now. It kicked off when the Glazer's wanted to buy the club with personal loans and then transfer these loans on to the club. That should've been a wake up call for english football. It wasnt. Instead since then, theres loads of examples of dodgy f**kers been allowed take over clubs. If these protests can help prevent other dodgy f**kers taking over clubs, what a success.

Thus 50 plus 1 thing will never come in. 

But at least if they strive to it, better supporter focus and consultation might come in for clubs eg making football affordable for the working class, etc.

I fully get why they are protesting and agree with them. What's the end goal with the protests and ownership rules? It certainly isn't about trying to help other clubs. 

Arsenal's fans protests are similar in getting Kroenke out and in comes the Spotify billionaire to save the day, a man who made his money from ripping off musicians on music royalties.   
Yeah that' what I'm trying to get at here, what are fans looking for with the protests? Do they want all billionaires out of football and go back to being a B-rate league? Or are they thinking they can somehow get the billionaires to plough money in to buy them players and then let the fans run things from there?

@Borussia, what good is Board Representation without a majority? They can throw a fan on the board who has no financial stake, but he'll just get frustrated when the company is run like a company.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borussia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2021 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by Artie Ziff Artie Ziff wrote:

Originally posted by Wheelo Wheelo wrote:

This is a good piece:


Artie, these protests have been going on and off for 16 years now. It kicked off when the Glazer's wanted to buy the club with personal loans and then transfer these loans on to the club. That should've been a wake up call for english football. It wasnt. Instead since then, theres loads of examples of dodgy f**kers been allowed take over clubs. If these protests can help prevent other dodgy f**kers taking over clubs, what a success.

Thus 50 plus 1 thing will never come in. 

But at least if they strive to it, better supporter focus and consultation might come in for clubs eg making football affordable for the working class, etc.

I fully get why they are protesting and agree with them. What's the end goal with the protests and ownership rules? It certainly isn't about trying to help other clubs. 

Arsenal's fans protests are similar in getting Kroenke out and in comes the Spotify billionaire to save the day, a man who made his money from ripping off musicians on music royalties.   
Yeah that' what I'm trying to get at here, what are fans looking for with the protests? Do they want all billionaires out of football and go back to being a B-rate league? Or are they thinking they can somehow get the billionaires to plough money in to buy them players and then let the fans run things from there?

@Borussia, what good is Board Representation without a majority? They can throw a fan on the board who has no financial stake, but he'll just get frustrated when the company is run like a company.

It will lead to some level of accountability and is a start. 
Do you think this Super League idea would have happened in the way it did if a fan rep on a board had known about it 6 month ago? If nothing else they would have called it out long ago for what it is. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wheelo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2021 at 2:23pm
again, people are missing the point when they mention wanting it to be a “b league” or about a clubs success.

It’s about supporters having a bigger say in the direction of their club - whether that’s to make it affordable, no super league, total disregard of supporters in general, etc.

It it was about success in the top tier, breakaway clubs like fc united would not have been formed out of these protests. It’s nothing at all to do with wanting owners to buy the likes of messi or about clubs winning trophies
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2021 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Yeah that' what I'm trying to get at here, what are fans looking for with the protests? Do they want all billionaires out of football and go back to being a B-rate league? Or are they thinking they can somehow get the billionaires to plough money in to buy them players and then let the fans run things from there?



It has to come down to fans actually buying the club themselves, or a least the majority stake. An alternative is finding a highly altruistic millionaire/billionaire who will fund the project, but will allow the supporters occupy the board (and there is no way in heck any investor would allow that without either being on the board themselves, or selecting a CEO/CFO etc who will have a major role in in executing the club's business, and at that point there will be conflicts between the fans and the organisation.

The alternative is for fans to return themselves to their won baseline, defect from their club of choice to a local club that has not been impacted by economic/financial/commercial/political issues, and start buying the local team's merchandise and season tickets, and following them, and square it with themselves by coming to terms with their original club of choice morphing, over time, into something totally different which means they were not supporting the same club anyway.

Honestly, I think there will be a lot of fans who will pay lip service to this, but will still keep ploughing money into their chosen club either by purchasing tickets, merchandise, subscriptions etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shedite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2021 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by Borussia Borussia wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by Artie Ziff Artie Ziff wrote:

Originally posted by Wheelo Wheelo wrote:

This is a good piece:


Artie, these protests have been going on and off for 16 years now. It kicked off when the Glazer's wanted to buy the club with personal loans and then transfer these loans on to the club. That should've been a wake up call for english football. It wasnt. Instead since then, theres loads of examples of dodgy f**kers been allowed take over clubs. If these protests can help prevent other dodgy f**kers taking over clubs, what a success.

Thus 50 plus 1 thing will never come in. 

But at least if they strive to it, better supporter focus and consultation might come in for clubs eg making football affordable for the working class, etc.

I fully get why they are protesting and agree with them. What's the end goal with the protests and ownership rules? It certainly isn't about trying to help other clubs. 

Arsenal's fans protests are similar in getting Kroenke out and in comes the Spotify billionaire to save the day, a man who made his money from ripping off musicians on music royalties.   
Yeah that' what I'm trying to get at here, what are fans looking for with the protests? Do they want all billionaires out of football and go back to being a B-rate league? Or are they thinking they can somehow get the billionaires to plough money in to buy them players and then let the fans run things from there?

@Borussia, what good is Board Representation without a majority? They can throw a fan on the board who has no financial stake, but he'll just get frustrated when the company is run like a company.

It will lead to some level of accountability and is a start. 
Do you think this Super League idea would have happened in the way it did if a fan rep on a board had known about it 6 month ago? If nothing else they would have called it out long ago for what it is. 
Probably not, I guess a fan rep would have hopefully been a strong voice in the boardroom. The fan board member would have been NDA'd though so couldn't have gone shouting about it on Twitter or through the press, or they'd have lost the seat and we'd be back at square 1. And if the Americans really wanted to do this in private they could have had it all setup with the owners before releasing it to the press last month. Was it actually discussed at MU Board meetings? Or was it all hushed away?

I'm not having a go at United here, my own club Cork City is 100% fan owned, but in the past year we'd the same dilemma - remain controlling what the club does on a smaller budget, or make our money problems go away handing it over to a billionaire. In the end of the day, I decided with my vote I'd prefer to be competing for honours than having a fan owned team in the first division for the next 10 years.

I think Het-field hit the nail on the head there, a lot of the protect is lip service, or at least people who haven't thought through the alternative.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Borussia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2021 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by Borussia Borussia wrote:

Originally posted by Shedite Shedite wrote:

Originally posted by Artie Ziff Artie Ziff wrote:

Originally posted by Wheelo Wheelo wrote:

This is a good piece:


Artie, these protests have been going on and off for 16 years now. It kicked off when the Glazer's wanted to buy the club with personal loans and then transfer these loans on to the club. That should've been a wake up call for english football. It wasnt. Instead since then, theres loads of examples of dodgy f**kers been allowed take over clubs. If these protests can help prevent other dodgy f**kers taking over clubs, what a success.

Thus 50 plus 1 thing will never come in. 

But at least if they strive to it, better supporter focus and consultation might come in for clubs eg making football affordable for the working class, etc.

I fully get why they are protesting and agree with them. What's the end goal with the protests and ownership rules? It certainly isn't about trying to help other clubs. 

Arsenal's fans protests are similar in getting Kroenke out and in comes the Spotify billionaire to save the day, a man who made his money from ripping off musicians on music royalties.   
Yeah that' what I'm trying to get at here, what are fans looking for with the protests? Do they want all billionaires out of football and go back to being a B-rate league? Or are they thinking they can somehow get the billionaires to plough money in to buy them players and then let the fans run things from there?

@Borussia, what good is Board Representation without a majority? They can throw a fan on the board who has no financial stake, but he'll just get frustrated when the company is run like a company.

It will lead to some level of accountability and is a start. 
Do you think this Super League idea would have happened in the way it did if a fan rep on a board had known about it 6 month ago? If nothing else they would have called it out long ago for what it is. 
Probably not, I guess a fan rep would have hopefully been a strong voice in the boardroom. The fan board member would have been NDA'd though so couldn't have gone shouting about it on Twitter or through the press, or they'd have lost the seat and we'd be back at square 1. And if the Americans really wanted to do this in private they could have had it all setup with the owners before releasing it to the press last month. Was it actually discussed at MU Board meetings? Or was it all hushed away?

I'm not having a go at United here, my own club Cork City is 100% fan owned, but in the past year we'd the same dilemma - remain controlling what the club does on a smaller budget, or make our money problems go away handing it over to a billionaire. In the end of the day, I decided with my vote I'd prefer to be competing for honours than having a fan owned team in the first division for the next 10 years.

I think Het-field hit the nail on the head there, a lot of the protect is lip service, or at least people who haven't thought through the alternative.

Would suggest you take a look at what the MUST, Spirit of Shankly etc are saying and doing.
SOS are meeting with Billy Hogan today for example, as mandated to do by their members. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrendanD88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2021 at 5:56pm
Chelsea will have supporter presence at the club’s board meeting from July.

Puts pressure on the other clubs to do the same.
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