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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FrankosHereNow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2018 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by Padraig Padraig wrote:

Originally posted by greenlad greenlad wrote:

part of the reason rents are so high is that people who rent out property are hit with 48% tax, no that's not a typo it's 48% and the government are rubbing their hands.

I haven't an ounce of sympathy for people wealthy enough to own more properties than they can live in and attempt to profit off a basic human need.
What about people who sell food for profit?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cabra Hoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2018 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by MC Hammered MC Hammered wrote:

Cheers. Practically speaking, how would something like this work in Ireland? Massive construction projects funded by the government/ taxpayer?

It amazes me how we were able to fund huge social housing projects around Dublin (Crumlin, Drimnagh, Ballyfermot, Cabra, Finglas etc) back in the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s when Ireland was an economic backwater but it’s not possible to do it these days despite a genuine housing crisis.


The places listed above were built by people directly employed by Dublin Corporation. There was this peculiar old notion of building homes for people to live in and charging them an affordable rent.
 
Nowadays there are so many powerful interest groups who get a cut out of housing developments - Landowners, Architects, Surveyors, Construction Companies, Solicitors, Law Agents, Tradesmen, Mortgage Brokers, Banks, Building Societies, Investment Companies etc. etc.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saint Tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2018 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by MC Hammered MC Hammered wrote:

Originally posted by Saint Tom Saint Tom wrote:

Originally posted by greenlad greenlad wrote:

part of the reason rents are so high is that people who rent out property are hit with 48% tax, no that's not a typo it's 48% and the government are rubbing their hands.

Its at a person's marginal rate after expenses (including 80% of any interest on a loan) are deducted.

Big difference 

This might be a stupid Q but please bear with me. I've never really understood this. 

Imagine a fella has two mortgages on houses, he rents one and lives in the other.

The one he rents has mortgage repayments of €1000 plus interest of €200 per month. He rents the gaff out for a) €1000 b) €1200 per month c) €2000 per month. What approx is he paying in tax in those situations?  



The calculation for all is the same. His marginal rate of income tax on rent less the interest and allowable costs (insurance, maintenance etc).

Obviously the higher the rent the higher the tax. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greenlad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2018 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by Saint Tom Saint Tom wrote:

Originally posted by greenlad greenlad wrote:

part of the reason rents are so high is that people who rent out property are hit with 48% tax, no that's not a typo it's 48% and the government are rubbing their hands.

Its at a person's marginal rate after expenses (including 80% of any interest on a loan) are deducted.

Big difference 
Only the interest though, my interest is only 1%  but I've still got repayments the guts of a grand therefore if I'm to rent out my gaf I'm paying 48% tax so I have to charge at least 1500 and I'm not making a profit on the rental income,I'm  just covering my mortgage repayments for that. 
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greenlad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2018 at 4:00pm
.

Edited by greenlad - 17 Aug 2018 at 4:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greenlad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2018 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by FrankosHereNow FrankosHereNow wrote:

Originally posted by Padraig Padraig wrote:

Originally posted by greenlad greenlad wrote:

part of the reason rents are so high is that people who rent out property are hit with 48% tax, no that's not a typo it's 48% and the government are rubbing their hands.

I haven't an ounce of sympathy for people wealthy enough to own more properties than they can live in and attempt to profit off a basic human need.
What about people who sell food for profit?

It's called business pawdy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kimbap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2018 at 4:22pm
Originally posted by Padraig Padraig wrote:

Originally posted by greenlad greenlad wrote:

part of the reason rents are so high is that people who rent out property are hit with 48% tax, no that's not a typo it's 48% and the government are rubbing their hands.

I haven't an ounce of sympathy for people wealthy enough to own more properties than they can live in and attempt to profit off a basic human need.

LOLffs....you'd want to grow up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Padraig Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2018 at 7:52pm
Originally posted by kimbap kimbap wrote:

Originally posted by Padraig Padraig wrote:

Originally posted by greenlad greenlad wrote:

part of the reason rents are so high is that people who rent out property are hit with 48% tax, no that's not a typo it's 48% and the government are rubbing their hands.

I haven't an ounce of sympathy for people wealthy enough to own more properties than they can live in and attempt to profit off a basic human need.

LOLffs....you'd want to grow up

Expand on your argument, there
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Padraig Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2018 at 7:53pm
Originally posted by greenlad greenlad wrote:

Originally posted by FrankosHereNow FrankosHereNow wrote:

Originally posted by Padraig Padraig wrote:

Originally posted by greenlad greenlad wrote:

part of the reason rents are so high is that people who rent out property are hit with 48% tax, no that's not a typo it's 48% and the government are rubbing their hands.

I haven't an ounce of sympathy for people wealthy enough to own more properties than they can live in and attempt to profit off a basic human need.
What about people who sell food for profit?

It's called business pawdy

Thousands of homeless people, but hey, that's business. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lenny82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2018 at 8:35pm
Most landlord's are decent people who have bought as an investment for their retirement or as some security for their kids.

This 'landlord's are scum' bullsh*t drives me mad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2018 at 3:55pm
Government over regulation and a f**king parody of a planning process is the reason for the housing crisis. And the government has become so large and splintered into so many departments that nobody can do anything about it. 

It’s a simple supply and demand situation. Rent controls, nimbyism in conjunction with parish pump politics, ludicrous height restrictions and only selling to natives is only going to reduce supply.

All this anti landlord nonsense is hilarious. 




Edited by flipper - 18 Aug 2018 at 3:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2018 at 8:25pm
Originally posted by MC Hammered MC Hammered wrote:

Originally posted by Saint Tom Saint Tom wrote:

Originally posted by greenlad greenlad wrote:

part of the reason rents are so high is that people who rent out property are hit with 48% tax, no that's not a typo it's 48% and the government are rubbing their hands.

Its at a person's marginal rate after expenses (including 80% of any interest on a loan) are deducted.

Big difference 

This might be a stupid Q but please bear with me. I've never really understood this. 

Imagine a fella has two mortgages on houses, he rents one and lives in the other.

The one he rents has mortgage repayments of €1000 plus interest of €200 per month. He rents the gaff out for a) €1000 b) €1200 per month c) €2000 per month. What approx is he paying in tax in those situations?  


Well, let's make a few assumptions. The first is that the landlord is already a higher rate tax payer and higher rate USC payer - i.e. he earns over 70k a year from his work. Very generous, but it makes the maths below a little easier.

The second is that the landlord deducts around 10% of the rent on maintenance and capital allowances per annum (which, I think, is about normal). Let's say that figure includes all deductions, like insurance, RTB registration, letting fees, etc etc, and whatever capital deductions he has. That's about fair. There's a reason by to let mortgages only allow you to use 10/12ths of the rent in your income calculations, because they assume houses are empty one month a year and that one month's rent per year is necessary for ongoing maintenance etc. It is tricky for tax, in that some things can only be written off over 8 years, like buying new furniture and the like, but let's allow 10% off rental income for practicality.

So, let's say that the place is rented for €1,000pm. That's €12,000 per annum. Now, in terms of tax, he's entitled to deduct 80% of the interest from the mortgage. So he pays €2,400 per annum interest. That means he can deduct €1,920 from his gross income. Say he does have €1,200 on allowable deductions, including wear and tear allowances, that's totally deductible. That gives a net income for tax purposes of €8,880. Now, you have to pay income tax and USC on that. Tax is 40%, USC is 8%. That's €4,262.40. So from his €12,000 income, he has paid out €12,000 on mortgage, €1,200 on maintenance and €4,262.40 tax and USC. That leaves him down €5,462.40 in cash flow, but having paid €10,000 capital off his mortgage, so he is still up overall.

The second example was €1,200pm. That's €14,400 per annum. He can still deduct €1,920 for interest, and let's say now €1,440 in maintenance etc. That's a net income for tax purposes of €11,040. He thus pays €5,299.20 tax and USC (48%). So on his €14,400 income, he has paid out €12,000 on mortgage, €1,440 on maintenance and €5,299.20 on tax and USC. That leaves him down €4,339.20 in cash flow, but again having paid €10,000 capital off his mortgage, so again still up overall.

The third example was €2,000pm. That's €24,000 per annum. Again assuming €1,920 deductible for interest and 10% (€2,400) maintenance etc, he has a net income of €19,680. He thus pays €9,446.40 in income tax and USC. So on his €24,000 income, he has paid out €12,000 on the mortgage, €2,400 on maintenance and €9,446.40 on tax and USC. That leaves him up €153.60 on a cash flow basis, again also having paid €10,000 capital off his mortgage.

In all instances, he is making a healthy profit. Most landlords are - if you aren't, you're a f**king idiot. The major issue for many landlords is that they don't have a positive cash flow, but that's only because they are paying off the capital of their mortgage. Landlords saying they are getting out of the market because they are losing money probably mean they are losing cash, but neglecting to mention the fact that they are paying off capital on their mortgage the whole time.

The other factor is that the tax deduction for mortgage interest will decrease each year, as the proportion of the payments that are interest obviously decreases each year. In your first year of a 25 year mortgage, your payment will be mostly interest, but in the last year, it will be over 96% capital and only 4% interest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lenny82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2018 at 9:18am
Rent has clearly gone mental in Dublin but there seems to be a lot of people who think they should be entitled to live within walking distance of the city.

If you use London as a comparative, someone commuting from Luton would have the same distance to travel as someone working in Dublin commuting from Drogheda. There are plenty of places to rent in Drogheda and Dundalk for a reasonable price and you wouldn't have to share your room with 8 Brazilian men to afford it.

(Replaced Croydon with Luton and Dundalk with Drogheda after getting pulled up on poor geography!)


Edited by Lenny82 - 19 Aug 2018 at 9:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trap junior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2018 at 9:31am
Dublin to Dundalk is around 72km

London to Croydon is 14km
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saint Tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2018 at 9:42am
Originally posted by Lenny82 Lenny82 wrote:

Rent has clearly gone mental in Dublin but there seems to be a lot of people who think they should be entitled to live within walking distance of the city.

If you use London as a comparative, someone commuting from Croydon would have the same distance to travel as someone working in Dublin commuting from Dundalk. There are plenty of places to rent in Drogheda and Dundalk for a reasonable price and you wouldn't have to share your room with 8 Brazilian men to afford it.

Where to start? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lenny82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2018 at 9:44am
Originally posted by Trap junior Trap junior wrote:

Dublin to Dundalk is around 72km

London to Croydon is 14km

My bad. I was way off. Say somewhere like Luton which would  be similar distance to Drogheda. I think! Embarrassed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2018 at 9:58am
A mature discussion about the housing market would help. To me, that would be the starting point. Flipper has hit on a number of points, which includes building up. For some reason, as a nation we have been weirdly averse to that, even thought what would produce significantly greater housing stock around the IFSC. The government could also kick in with a sensible and sustainable social housing plan, and could use a number of other European Countries as a blueprint. There would also need to be incentive schemes on new builds like they have had in the UK, which would encourage the purchase of homes, for first time buyers, through encouraging savings with the view to home ownership.

It will be up to political will. Accepting the need for social housing, dropping a belt and braces objection to “builders and bankers”, and appreciating the need for Ireland to move with modern thinking will all help. 

At the moment, all we seem to have is a ham fisted view of what social housing will entail, and a belief in rent control, which would exacerbate the crisis
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lenny82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2018 at 11:04am
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

A mature discussion about the housing market would help. To me, that would be the starting point. Flipper has hit on a number of points, which includes building up. For some reason, as a nation we have been weirdly averse to that, even thought what would produce significantly greater housing stock around the IFSC. The government could also kick in with a sensible and sustainable social housing plan, and could use a number of other European Countries as a blueprint. There would also need to be incentive schemes on new builds like they have had in the UK, which would encourage the purchase of homes, for first time buyers, through encouraging savings with the view to home ownership.

It will be up to political will. Accepting the need for social housing, dropping a belt and braces objection to “builders and bankers”, and appreciating the need for Ireland to move with modern thinking will all help. 

At the moment, all we seem to have is a ham fisted view of what social housing will entail, and a belief in rent control, which would exacerbate the crisis

Spot on.
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