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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2020 at 4:51pm
Cue 20 pages of posters not being able to offer an opinion on a forum set up to offer an opinion. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2020 at 7:44pm


In fairness to Whelan from 2008 on he played over 450 games at International, premier league and championship level for Ireland, Stoke City and Aston Villa. He averaged 35 Premier League appearances a year for Stoke over nearly a decade as a "holding midfielder" and only scored 5 goals so he literally probably just did the job that he was told to do.

The only people Whelan "convinced" he could do the role better than him are the managers at Stoke City , Aston Villa and Ireland who looked at him and thought he must be doing something right in it!! Managers pick teams not fans and i hope that any of our current crop of new young midfielders coming thru under Stephen Kenny go on next year to either get promotion with their clubs or get moves to premier league clubs and then go on to make 35 plus PL appearances a season over the next 9 years.

We would be in great shape if we could get 8-10 of our best 15 players playing at that level on a regular basis.[/QUOTE]

That’s a very good and logical post Irelandshirts. 
So get off this thread and take that fact based knowledge somewhere else.

We have experts on here that know better than premier league and International managers. 
[/QUOTE]

This logic doesn't always make sense, otherwise you would have to agree that Phil Neville is one of the best players to ever play in the Premier league, better than Gerrard, better than Henry as he has won 6 pl titles 3 fa cups and champions leagues etc. This is clearly not true. 

You need to judge the player on his performances, not how many times he's played on the Premier league. 

For newly promoted teams struggling to make ends meet, Whelan has been a cheap alternative to make your team tougher to score against. But if you're looking to win games Whelan offers very little.

Whelan has carved out a really great career for himself but I suspect he was in the right place at the right time rather than a great player.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irelandshirts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2020 at 8:10pm
Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:



In fairness to Whelan from 2008 on he played over 450 games at International, premier league and championship level for Ireland, Stoke City and Aston Villa. He averaged 35 Premier League appearances a year for Stoke over nearly a decade as a "holding midfielder" and only scored 5 goals so he literally probably just did the job that he was told to do.

The only people Whelan "convinced" he could do the role better than him are the managers at Stoke City , Aston Villa and Ireland who looked at him and thought he must be doing something right in it!! Managers pick teams not fans and i hope that any of our current crop of new young midfielders coming thru under Stephen Kenny go on next year to either get promotion with their clubs or get moves to premier league clubs and then go on to make 35 plus PL appearances a season over the next 9 years.

We would be in great shape if we could get 8-10 of our best 15 players playing at that level on a regular basis.


That’s a very good and logical post Irelandshirts. 
So get off this thread and take that fact based knowledge somewhere else.

We have experts on here that know better than premier league and International managers. 
[/QUOTE]

This logic doesn't always make sense, otherwise you would have to agree that Phil Neville is one of the best players to ever play in the Premier league, better than Gerrard, better than Henry as he has won 6 pl titles 3 fa cups and champions leagues etc. This is clearly not true. 

You need to judge the player on his performances, not how many times he's played on the Premier league. 

For newly promoted teams struggling to make ends meet, Whelan has been a cheap alternative to make your team tougher to score against. But if you're looking to win games Whelan offers very little.

Whelan has carved out a really great career for himself but I suspect he was in the right place at the right time rather than a great player.


[/QUOTE]

But to play 35 PL games a season for 9 years you had to be a decent at what you do. All players need luck, a scout who spots them young, a manager who believes in them, being injury free, a team that suits your abilities etc.

There are countless examples of players like Whelan who made more of their career than maybe others of more talent or ability did. Why knock him for it?

Instead of picking at Whelans performances people should look at maybe other players who were not as dedicated, professional, committed and ask why their "stats" are not great.

Like I said id love to see young Irish midfielders going on next year to being PL regulars with 35 plus appearances a season for the next 9 seasons. I'm sure Stephen Kenny would love to see it also. Take Stephen Ireland, i think most would agree who was a much more naturally talented footballer than Whelan. An Ave of 18 PL games a season over 13 years and a 6 game Ireland career. Who made the best out of their career in terms of consistent performances week in, week out? That's not a knock on Ireland in any way has again if Stephen Kenny can get 8-10 of our best players playing 18 PL games a season that has to be a positive for us.

You mentioned Phil Neville 600 plus games for Man Utd, Everton and England in a 19 year career (Ave 31 PL games a season) and Steven Gerrard 600 plus games for Liverpool and England in a 17 year career (Ave 35 PL games a season). Two incredible careers and serious footballers.

Of course Gerrard is a better player than Neville and both are better players than Whelan but in an Irish context over a 10 year period from 2008 I'm not sure how many, if any other Ireland players played as consistently for club and country at such a high level?

I don't think Glen Whelan would say he was a great player but if our Molumbys and Parrots etc can go on to play at that level as consistently as Whelan did then our future will be very bright indeed.



Edited by irelandshirts - 07 Jul 2020 at 8:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2020 at 8:45pm
Totally agree with all of that irelandshirts, my point was that Phil Neville was a good football player but could not be described as a great player despite on paper his career being more successful than say Gerrard.

As I said, Whelan has carved a great career out for himself and that is to his own credit. His commitment and dedication to Ireland has been superb but people should be allowed to comment on his overall contribution in games which for some people has been limited.

We have been lucky to have Whelan available and I would agree he has been the best option in many games, however I would have to add that he has been a limited player in a limited Ireland team.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Green Cockade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2020 at 8:46pm
To be fair to Whelan, you don't get 90+ international caps and consistently see off players brought in to replace you, as he has done throughout his career, without strong qualities. Mick brought him and McGoldrick back when they had been written off and deemed not good enough to ever wear the green shirt again. McGoldrick's quality makes him one of the first names on the team sheet now and Whelan, while probably at the end of the line now, has been a success for Ireland and for the clubs he has played for.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nialler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2020 at 9:53pm
I don't really care who is right in the above posts regarding Whelan's career, I just hope he is not in Kenny's team LOL

My 2 cents are he was a good pro but only suited to certain teams and unfortunately those teams were like stoke and Ireland. Invaluable in those style teams but in an "ideal" world you wouldn't want him especially as a purist. Also for a holding midfielder he is about 5-10 years out of date. the role requires way more now.All the older holding midfielders would be turned into box to box players in 2020. he is about 6 inches too small now and about 10 yards of pace/stamina short to play there in a top team now
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zinedine Kilbane 110 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2020 at 9:58pm
Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Totally agree with all of that irelandshirts, my point was that Phil Neville was a good football player but could not be described as a great player despite on paper his career being more successful than say Gerrard.

As I said, Whelan has carved a great career out for himself and that is to his own credit. His commitment and dedication to Ireland has been superb but people should be allowed to comment on his overall contribution in games which for some people has been limited.

We have been lucky to have Whelan available and I would agree he has been the best option in many games, however I would have to add that he has been a limited player in a limited Ireland team.

The EPL is the most scrutinised league in the world. There are stats for every player and every game that are watched by millions and covered by 1000s of media.

Whelan played in the EPL for a decade as he was excellent in the role he played. 
People seem to think anybody could play that role. 
He is obviously not as good as say Kante but would you say he is a limited player? 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2020 at 10:00pm
Originally posted by Zinedine Kilbane 110 Zinedine Kilbane 110 wrote:

Originally posted by Left foot Left foot wrote:

Totally agree with all of that irelandshirts, my point was that Phil Neville was a good football player but could not be described as a great player despite on paper his career being more successful than say Gerrard.

As I said, Whelan has carved a great career out for himself and that is to his own credit. His commitment and dedication to Ireland has been superb but people should be allowed to comment on his overall contribution in games which for some people has been limited.

We have been lucky to have Whelan available and I would agree he has been the best option in many games, however I would have to add that he has been a limited player in a limited Ireland team.

The EPL is the most scrutinised league in the world. There are stats for every player and every game that are watched by millions and covered by 1000s of media.

Whelan played in the EPL for a decade as he was excellent in the role he played. 
People seem to think anybody could play that role. 
He is obviously not as good as say Kante but would you say he is a limited player? 

A bit like Hendrick and Stephen Ward, who are sh*te according to most posters. We all have our opinions, simply playing in the Premier League doesn't mean everyone will automatically agree you're a good footballer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JUICEBOMB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2020 at 10:21pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Mr Brick Mr Brick wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by horsebox horsebox wrote:

He's doing what his role involves.

Not sure why a holding midfielder would dominate a game

Because as you drop down the levels, typically your overall game will be so superior to the opposition that you will be able to dictate the pace of the game. The idea that just because you're a "holding midfielder" means you literally don't have to do anything other than "hold" is part of the reason Whelan has thrived in an Irish midfield for a decade. By doing nothing other than the bare minimum of what his position requires, he's convinced a significant number of people that it would actually be impossible for anyone in his position to do more than that bare minimum. Quite a trick.
That's a cheap attack on Glenn Whelan - the most gutless, tacky sledge on an Irish international I've ever read. To allege his international career was based on a "trick" as he performed the "bare minimum" is truly atrocious, especially from someone who climbs high moral ground with such agility. 

No one will record Whelan's career in green as iconic, no one will describe him as a high achiever, but your senseless, nauseous bashing of a solid professional and a decent bloke is rancid to the core. I find it hard to believe that you - who takes such a comprehensive interest in the careers and progress of so many Irish players abroad - could stoop so low and unload such a diatribe against one of our most loyal servants. A truly awful post.

Nothing gutless about it. It's an explanation as to why Whelan doesn't stand out at lower levels, as you might expect from a man who has so much experience at higher levels. 

When I say Whelan does "the bare minimum", that is not insinuating that he is lazy, merely that he is risk averse in the extreme. He takes an incredibly narrow definition of what the holding midfielders job is, and then executes that particular interpretation. Due to this cautiousness he rarely, if ever, strays from this role, and consequently his performances look pretty much the same no matter who he's playing against. It could be Andorra, it could be Austria, he'll do the same thing. That is my point.





I was merely commenting on him from the fleetwood performances I seen him in the play offs and I think “the bare minimum “ summed him up in the two games.hes had ten years in the PL but you wouldn’t pick him out as a that player in fleetwood now(ok age,legs etc) but he’s 36 and he should be dominating games at that level.....he NEVER took the bull by the horns or even tried to go forward with a pass...is that the mark of a player with 450 top level games?I’m not having a dig at him as such,it’s just as I said I was expecting so much more from him and probably now see the player the Hearts fans saw.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Green Cockade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2020 at 10:38pm
Aston Villa, I think, are going down. They have looked porous defensively without Whelan shoring up the back four. I'm not saying he could have kept them up, but he would have been a useful option to use when needed. Instead, a lot of overpriced players were brought in who have not cut it. I feel sorry for Hourihane ( like Enda Stevens, one of the very few players who have dipped from the Premiership to League Two and back again, rather than sliding ever further down the slippery slope as most do ) but I think Villa have made big mistakes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JUICEBOMB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2020 at 10:50pm
Originally posted by Green Cockade Green Cockade wrote:

Aston Villa, I think, are going down. They have looked porous defensively without Whelan shoring up the back four. I'm not saying he could have kept them up, but he would have been a useful option to use when needed. Instead, a lot of overpriced players were brought in who have not cut it. I feel sorry for Hourihane ( like Enda Stevens, one of the very few players who have dipped from the Premiership to League Two and back again, rather than sliding ever further down the slippery slope as most do ) but I think Villa have made big mistakes.


He wouldn’t last at ashtown Villa never mind Aston Villa going by his fleetwood performances.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2020 at 10:55pm
He played a good few games for villa in the championship  nearly 2 years back now, when they got promoted they didn't think he could provide a positive enough impact for them, no other championship team thought he was better than what they already had in terms of personnel so ended up at Hearts, that didn't work out either and he was told he could leave, again no championship team went for him and he ended up at Fleetwood.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2020 at 10:56pm
Originally posted by Green Cockade Green Cockade wrote:

Aston Villa, I think, are going down. They have looked porous defensively without Whelan shoring up the back four. I'm not saying he could have kept them up, but he would have been a useful option to use when needed. Instead, a lot of overpriced players were brought in who have not cut it. I feel sorry for Hourihane ( like Enda Stevens, one of the very few players who have dipped from the Premiership to League Two and back again, rather than sliding ever further down the slippery slope as most do ) but I think Villa have made big mistakes.

Luiz and Nakamba offer far more than Whelan would have, certainly at this stage. Villa's problem is that they just aren't a good enough side, I don't think keeping a 36 year old Glenn Whelan around would have been particularly likely to alter that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Brick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2020 at 3:48am
Originally posted by JUICEBOMB JUICEBOMB wrote:

Originally posted by Green Cockade Green Cockade wrote:

Aston Villa, I think, are going down. They have looked porous defensively without Whelan shoring up the back four. I'm not saying he could have kept them up, but he would have been a useful option to use when needed. Instead, a lot of overpriced players were brought in who have not cut it. I feel sorry for Hourihane ( like Enda Stevens, one of the very few players who have dipped from the Premiership to League Two and back again, rather than sliding ever further down the slippery slope as most do ) but I think Villa have made big mistakes.


He wouldn’t last at ashtown Villa never mind Aston Villa going by his fleetwood performances.
Be fair, Whelan has been fantastic at Fleetwood. He arrived with them mid-table and struggling. He played eight undefeated games - five wins and three draws which got them to the playoffs. He played 90 minutes in every game. Yes, the playoffs were disappointing, but, again, he played 90 minutes in both games and certainly was far from the worst, despite your comment. 

Ashtown Villa, whatever their grading, could do worse than adopt his attitude. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeclanDaly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2020 at 3:56am
“it’s the notes he doesn’t play”

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I said "I'd be Tony Cascarino, circa 1995"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Brick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2020 at 6:12am
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Green Cockade Green Cockade wrote:

Aston Villa, I think, are going down. They have looked porous defensively without Whelan shoring up the back four. I'm not saying he could have kept them up, but he would have been a useful option to use when needed. Instead, a lot of overpriced players were brought in who have not cut it. I feel sorry for Hourihane ( like Enda Stevens, one of the very few players who have dipped from the Premiership to League Two and back again, rather than sliding ever further down the slippery slope as most do ) but I think Villa have made big mistakes.

Luiz and Nakamba offer far more than Whelan would have, certainly at this stage. Villa's problem is that they just aren't a good enough side, I don't think keeping a 36 year old Glenn Whelan around would have been particularly likely to alter that.

Both Luiz and Nakamba are erratic and unreliable. Go-missing merchants, bags of skill but feck-all use in a relegation dogfight. You're right, EPL is beyond Whelan now - but his attitude and, yes, dour determination is exactly what's needed at Villa. Your scurrilous comments about him define you. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2020 at 9:57am
Originally posted by Mr Brick Mr Brick wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Green Cockade Green Cockade wrote:

Aston Villa, I think, are going down. They have looked porous defensively without Whelan shoring up the back four. I'm not saying he could have kept them up, but he would have been a useful option to use when needed. Instead, a lot of overpriced players were brought in who have not cut it. I feel sorry for Hourihane ( like Enda Stevens, one of the very few players who have dipped from the Premiership to League Two and back again, rather than sliding ever further down the slippery slope as most do ) but I think Villa have made big mistakes.

Luiz and Nakamba offer far more than Whelan would have, certainly at this stage. Villa's problem is that they just aren't a good enough side, I don't think keeping a 36 year old Glenn Whelan around would have been particularly likely to alter that.

Both Luiz and Nakamba are erratic and unreliable. Go-missing merchants, bags of skill but feck-all use in a relegation dogfight. You're right, EPL is beyond Whelan now - but his attitude and, yes, dour determination is exactly what's needed at Villa. Your scurrilous comments about him define you. 

My apologies Glenn. If my suggestion that you're extremely risk-averse have scandalised you, I can only suggest that you grow a thicker skin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Brick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2020 at 11:12am
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Mr Brick Mr Brick wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by Green Cockade Green Cockade wrote:

Aston Villa, I think, are going down. They have looked porous defensively without Whelan shoring up the back four. I'm not saying he could have kept them up, but he would have been a useful option to use when needed. Instead, a lot of overpriced players were brought in who have not cut it. I feel sorry for Hourihane ( like Enda Stevens, one of the very few players who have dipped from the Premiership to League Two and back again, rather than sliding ever further down the slippery slope as most do ) but I think Villa have made big mistakes.

Luiz and Nakamba offer far more than Whelan would have, certainly at this stage. Villa's problem is that they just aren't a good enough side, I don't think keeping a 36 year old Glenn Whelan around would have been particularly likely to alter that.

Both Luiz and Nakamba are erratic and unreliable. Go-missing merchants, bags of skill but feck-all use in a relegation dogfight. You're right, EPL is beyond Whelan now - but his attitude and, yes, dour determination is exactly what's needed at Villa. Your scurrilous comments about him define you. 

My apologies Glenn. If my suggestion that you're extremely risk-averse have scandalised you, I can only suggest that you grow a thicker skin.

 
"By doing nothing other than the bare minimum of what his position requires, he's convinced a significant number of people that it would actually be impossible for anyone in his position to do more than that bare minimum. Quite a trick".

Your summary of a player who won 85 caps under multiple managers, had an excellent EPL career also under good managers and who, in the recent years, was a vital contributor at two clubs' promotion efforts. He was also one of our best players in the Euro qualifiers. Yet you call him a slacker with one trick. That, sir, is very bad - as are your puerile responses above.

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