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Glenn Whelan

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Ray Houghton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OnTheOneRoad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 5:06pm
Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

What has made him so surprisingly, to some at least, successful is the fact he knows his limitations. Every other midfielder we have seems to think they are brilliant, only to disappear when the going gets tough and, as a result of them not being as good as they think, that happens often.

I agree and as I said you have to respect the career he's made for himself. I also think that's he's simply smarter than players like Hendrick Arter etc. even if they are different type of midfielders. At the end of the day in midfield, whether you're a defensive anchor, box to box, attacking mid, half and half etc, most of the basics are the same. Whelan knows his limits and does the basics well. 


I've given Whelan plenty of stick over the years, and have also praised him when i thought he has done well. I thought he was one of our better performers over this campaign - and one of our worst in the last one. I'm not too sure many of our players have been consistently very good and have few if any bad games. Randolph, Duffy (even he was disappointing in a key moment on monday) are the only two that really come to mind.

When it comes to the debate about Whelan, a lot of people who are not fans of his take umbrage with the mention of Eamon Dunphy. Things like 'its bollox that people accuse you of listening too much to Dunphy if you don't like Glenn Whelan' and so on. 

I honestly believe that if Dunphy hadn't made that famous point about Whelan that he wouldn't be as maligned as he is today. He's been good sometimes, he's been sh*te other times. Look at who else has been around him the past two campaigns. Can anyone make a compelling argument that Hourihane, Hendrick, or Arter to name three have been less worthy of criticism than Glenn in the past 2-3 years? I am no great fan of Whelan's, but i can't make that argument.

Whelan is the only one of our midfielders that is judged on what he can't offer, rather than what he can. And to a degree that is actually fair. I myself have advocated for Cullen to be in the team rather than him despite Whelan doing ok, as I feel Cullen can hold his own defensively and be a playmaker from deep. Whelan can't really offer us that, and he is seen to an extent as our conservative style incarnate on the pitch. But he is performing, and performing rather well. The other two beside him have been doing the square root of f**k all, and are not criticised half as much, because of what they can do when on some mystical level of form that we have never seen, or haven't seen in years. Some were even calling for Brady back in the starting 11! 

I'd rather have Whelan doing what limited amount he can do, rather than another player not doing what supposedly great things they can do. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 5:30pm
Originally posted by Hans Moleman Hans Moleman wrote:

Whelan is a limited professional footballer, has imo got every ounce out of his ability career wise. I have huge respect for him for that. That doesn't mean that I'm happy seeing him as a mainstay at the heart of the Irish midfield for a decade. He is limited. He isn't quick enough for a high level. Using players like this in midfield dictates how we set up as a midfield and as a team. It effects how we defend, we need players close to him as he's not quick enough and would be exposed. It effects how we attack, we can't overcommit as he'd be exposed on the break. His passing isn't good enough to get us attacking quickly when we do win the ball back. There are lots of strands to how having a player like him in our team has a huge effect on the style of play we have.

The worst thing about it is that every single bit of this has been clear for a decade. There's no surprise in it. When push came to shove under MON in our 2 biggest games in the past 10 years against Italy and France at Euro 2016, Whelan was dropped. We changed the way we played, were more aggressive and pressed far far higher up the pitch. We played a lot better as a result imo and it suited many more of our players than this stand offish attitude we used most of the time.

For all of that, Whelan should of course have been used at times for us in the past decade. He's a limited player, but he's smart. He's a good organiser. When we lead the French in 2016, imo we should have made a couple of subs and changed tactic. Whelan should have been brought on. He had and still has his uses.


I have to say I agree with basically all of this. The only example I'd have against it is how well we played against Switzerland and Denmark at home in this campaign, when Whelan was in central midfield. We also don't know what instructions Whelan was given for the majority of the games under Trap and MO'N when the game seemed to be bypassing him (whatever about his role in shielding the back four). However, what we can say is that in both the Switzerland and Denmark games at home in this campaign, he was a lot more proactive than we've seen in a number of previous games under the previous two managers. His performances for Stoke, Aston Villa and Hearts over the last decade plus have shown that he is capable of being more proactive than he has shown in a lot of Ireland games over that period; arguably, we should be criticising Trap and MO'N more for their tactics (though of course, plenty were and still are doing that).

We are definitely capable of playing a more proactive brand of football even with him on the pitch than we have shown in the past; we've shown that we can be attacking in a number of games where he has played, too. While Whelan didn't play against France or Italy, he did play in our last two big home games, and played quite well (particularly against Denmark), certainly a lot more proactive than he has been in a number of past games for us. A large part of that has to be ascribed to managerial instructions; it seems the most obvious explanation. None of this is to say that Whelan was playing with the handbrake on under MO'N or Trap, or that he was somehow being held back by them; it is just to say that the evidence would tend to show that he was simply doing the job he was sent out to do and one he was mostly capable at. He isn't capable of pressing high up the pitch on the edge of the opposition penalty area; it would be lunacy to expect that level of workrate at 35 years of age, that is without doubt.

In many respects, the biggest criticism I have of him as a central midfielder isn't his passing so much as his lack of movement with the ball and lack of invention as a creative force. It is a good thing that a player with the ball at their feet looks to pass it quickly (as Whelan does often enough) but Whelan has never been able to take two or three touches into space and bring the ball forwards. He is far more likely to spread it wide or backwards than he is to run forward with it himself, or try to thread a ball through midfield. On multiple occasions on Monday, Jeff Hendrick had the ball, took a couple of touches, brought the ball ten or fifteen yards forward, and then passed it or at least tried to, either wide or forwards. Now, of course, sometimes he gave it away, but that has simply never been part of Whelan's game or skillset. The problem is that to have a decent central midfield against reasonable opposition, every central midfielder needs to be able to do that. Whelan has never been a tiki-taka passer of the ball either; instead, very often, it's one touch, a delay, and then a slower pass. He's neither one thing nor the other when we have the ball, not a tiki-taka passer, not a dribbler. Wes Hoolahan used to be excellent at picking up the ball in midfield, moving forwards, and playing the right pass, having generally taken an opposition midfielder out of the game.

At the higher levels of the international game, you need every central midfielder to be able to do that, at least occasionally, and the other central midfielders to cover. Hell, in the Switzerland game, a centra half scored from open play by moving forward and playing the right pass. Unfortunately for us, for most of the past decade, we have generally had one midfielder who can do that (or will try to do that) coupled with one midfielder who is either generally incapable of doing that, or instructed not to do that, in Glenn Whelan. That makes the team predictable and easier to stop. The benefit is that you play what appears to be much safer game, safe in the knowledge that even if one of your midfielders does lose the ball in the middle of the pitch, you'll have the security of a covering midfielder behind. However, it arguably ignores the fact that you could have the same thing, if only you had two midfielders who were equally capable of defensive shielding and a little creativity when required.

However, Glenn Whelan, for everything he does offer, has never been that player. The one other thing I'd say, though, is that it doesn't necessarily follow that he shouldn't have the best part of 100 caps for us. When looking at the alternatives and the teammates he has played with or in place of over the last decade, there are few enough players who you can say should have taken his place. There's no doubt it would be nice if Darron Gibson had lived up to his promise or if James McCarthy hadn't had such horrible injury problems or if Wes Hoolahan hadn't been frozen out by Trap or if David Meyler had been more consistent in the role, and that they might have taken a number of caps from Whelan but I don't think you can criticise Whelan for that. It would have been nice if each of those players had had better international careers and, say, 50 caps each, with better international careers than Glenn Whelan, but Whelan has done a job for us for a long time because he was, generally, among the best available options at any time.

I don't think anyone can deny that Glenn Whelan is relatively limited in what he brings to the team but for the most part he has been the best available option; arguably, that is the most depressing thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King_Kenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2019 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by Zinedine Kilbane 110 Zinedine Kilbane 110 wrote:

I reckon he has earned around €15M + from his football career.
Not bad for a footballer who was very limited.


Remember yer man JD and his big salary!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Brick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2019 at 12:39am
I don't agree with everything in SuperDave84's post - but it is an excellent, pragmatic and reasoned response from someone who has reservations about Glenn Whelan but nevertheless gives credit where it's due. His points about Trap, MON and Whelan's club roles are particularly relevant and well made.

How many current Irish players could have their careers, abilities, roles, performances etc scrutinised in such biased detail and come out on top? Not many.

And as for so-called fans whose default position is to crucify Whelan irrespective of his performances - you're world-class pathetic. But hey, keep belting out The Fields. Gobsh*tes.


Edited by Mr Brick - 22 Nov 2019 at 12:43am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Moleman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2019 at 1:09am
LOL
"I called him an embarrassment to FIFA and to himself," .... He said 'No-one speaks to me like that'.... and I said, "well I do' and that was that."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Huggybeer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2019 at 8:48am
I've never seen a player more scrutinised as much, this for someone who has 277 premier league appearances, has never not turned up for his country when asked, never created noise or bullSh1t for club or country and gives 100% in every game.

If everyone who wore a green shirt for the last 12 years put in the same effort, we would have won allot more games. I appreciate hes not Inesta or Perlo, but not many are.

Have a look in the mirror, Play station players, who havent played the game beyond 5 aside astro.

Please stop this bashing of a loyal and honest servant to the green jersey

Getting old and intolerant
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Green Devil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2019 at 9:15am
Originally posted by Huggybeer Huggybeer wrote:

I've never seen a player more scrutinised as much, this for someone who has 277 premier league appearances, has never not turned up for his country when asked, never created noise or bullSh1t for club or country and gives 100% in every game.

If everyone who wore a green shirt for the last 12 years put in the same effort, we would have won allot more games. I appreciate hes not Inesta or Perlo, but not many are.

Have a look in the mirror, Play station players, who havent played the game beyond 5 aside astro.

Please stop this bashing of a loyal and honest servant to the green jersey


Again another idiotic lazy response.

What do you base these assumptions on?
"He drives two Ferraris; I think he's a very lucky lad to have 50 caps for Ireland,"

Eamonn Dunphy on Glenn Whelan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberto Baggio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2019 at 9:37am
Originally posted by Huggybeer Huggybeer wrote:

I've never seen a player more scrutinised as much, this for someone who has 277 premier league appearances, has never not turned up for his country when asked, never created noise or bullSh1t for club or country and gives 100% in every game.

If everyone who wore a green shirt for the last 12 years put in the same effort, we would have won allot more games. I appreciate hes not Inesta or Perlo, but not many are.

Have a look in the mirror, Play station players, who havent played the game beyond 5 aside astro.

Please stop this bashing of a loyal and honest servant to the green jersey

 
Agree on this
Players in his position tend to always be scrutinised more than many other positions on the pitch
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Green Devil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2019 at 9:53am
They actually don't though really its Strikers by a country mile.

People tend to judge strikers on their goals to games ratios only, which leads to them being by far and away the most scrutinised.

Often not telling the full story of how good said striker is/was when you factor in their link up play or how many times they've made runs across the box to create space etc.

Giroud is a prime example, probably one of the best centre forwards in international football (many cant understand why he starts for France based on his club career) and without him leading the line France are nowhere near as effective.

Glenn is fortunate we dont play expansive attacking football or he'd be badly exposed like a fair number of our current players, playing in an ultra defensive set up surprise surprise suits his game and again limits the chance of being exposed.


"He drives two Ferraris; I think he's a very lucky lad to have 50 caps for Ireland,"

Eamonn Dunphy on Glenn Whelan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fruice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2019 at 10:33am
Originally posted by Green Devil Green Devil wrote:

They actually don't though really its Strikers by a country mile.

People tend to judge strikers on their goals to games ratios only, which leads to them being by far and away the most scrutinised.

Often not telling the full story of how good said striker is/was when you factor in their link up play or how many times they've made runs across the box to create space etc.

Giroud is a prime example, probably one of the best centre forwards in international football (many cant understand why he starts for France based on his club career) and without him leading the line France are nowhere near as effective.

Glenn is fortunate we dont play expansive attacking football or he'd be badly exposed like a fair number of our current players, playing in an ultra defensive set up surprise surprise suits his game and again limits the chance of being exposed.


It’s a good job Mick doesn’t pick strikers on a goal to game ratio for Ireland  otherwise Glen would have been up front ahead of most of them until recently 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrendanD88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2019 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by Huggybeer Huggybeer wrote:

I've never seen a player more scrutinised as much, this for someone who has 277 premier league appearances, has never not turned up for his country when asked, never created noise or bullSh1t for club or country and gives 100% in every game.

If everyone who wore a green shirt for the last 12 years put in the same effort, we would have won allot more games. I appreciate hes not Inesta or Perlo, but not many are.

Have a look in the mirror, Play station players, who havent played the game beyond 5 aside astro.

Please stop this bashing of a loyal and honest servant to the green jersey

 
LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Green Devil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2019 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by Fruice Fruice wrote:

Originally posted by Green Devil Green Devil wrote:

They actually don't though really its Strikers by a country mile.

People tend to judge strikers on their goals to games ratios only, which leads to them being by far and away the most scrutinised.

Often not telling the full story of how good said striker is/was when you factor in their link up play or how many times they've made runs across the box to create space etc.

Giroud is a prime example, probably one of the best centre forwards in international football (many cant understand why he starts for France based on his club career) and without him leading the line France are nowhere near as effective.

Glenn is fortunate we dont play expansive attacking football or he'd be badly exposed like a fair number of our current players, playing in an ultra defensive set up surprise surprise suits his game and again limits the chance of being exposed.


It’s a good job Mick doesn’t pick strikers on a goal to game ratio for Ireland  otherwise Glen would have been up front ahead of most of them until recently 

With all due respect why would you compare a player with 90 odd caps to a player/players with no more than a handful between?

Also, it's a more damning verdict on Micks reign that we only scored 7 goals in 8 matches which evidently shows up his flaws and failings especially in an attacking sense as a manager.

What striker in world football would thrive in our set up, anti football with the mindset of setting up not to lose. 
"He drives two Ferraris; I think he's a very lucky lad to have 50 caps for Ireland,"

Eamonn Dunphy on Glenn Whelan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Green Devil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2019 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by BrendanD88 BrendanD88 wrote:

Originally posted by Huggybeer Huggybeer wrote:

I've never seen a player more scrutinised as much, this for someone who has 277 premier league appearances, has never not turned up for his country when asked, never created noise or bullSh1t for club or country and gives 100% in every game.

If everyone who wore a green shirt for the last 12 years put in the same effort, we would have won allot more games. I appreciate hes not Inesta or Perlo, but not many are.

Have a look in the mirror, Play station players, who havent played the game beyond 5 aside astro.

Please stop this bashing of a loyal and honest servant to the green jersey

 
LOL

LOL

If there was a World Cup based on lads turning up for international duty where we they were judged solely on effort and commitment we would be easily top 5 in the World.

You give a proper and fair analysis on players backed up with well thought out points, yet if you dare say boo about Glenn you're described as an armchair fan.

I never knew being half pissed at an Ireland game is now the pinnacle of player analysis!


"He drives two Ferraris; I think he's a very lucky lad to have 50 caps for Ireland,"

Eamonn Dunphy on Glenn Whelan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Huggybeer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2019 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by Green Devil Green Devil wrote:

Originally posted by Huggybeer Huggybeer wrote:

I've never seen a player more scrutinised as much, this for someone who has 277 premier league appearances, has never not turned up for his country when asked, never created noise or bullSh1t for club or country and gives 100% in every game.

If everyone who wore a green shirt for the last 12 years put in the same effort, we would have won allot more games. I appreciate hes not Inesta or Perlo, but not many are.

Have a look in the mirror, Play station players, who havent played the game beyond 5 aside astro.

Please stop this bashing of a loyal and honest servant to the green jersey



Again another idiotic lazy response.

What do you base these assumptions on?


I dont believe it is a Idiotic or Lazy
whats lazy is 128 pages of comments following suit of lazy Journalist like Eammon Dunphy in singling out one player, without knowing what direction has been given to a player and their responsibilities on the pitch. All this without questioning why successive Ireland and team managers choose to continue to play Glenn over twelve years as a senior player.

On my Comment re. play station/astro players, bashing a good pro on this forum, Im sure there is not to many on here has played at a relatively high level or gone beyond kick start 2 on the coaching ladder, if that. Presuming you have GD, I apologise but again I was speaking to the masses not individuals

Getting old and intolerant
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cildaratown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2019 at 12:57pm
probably played his last game at the aviva 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Green Devil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2019 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by Huggybeer Huggybeer wrote:

Originally posted by Green Devil Green Devil wrote:

Originally posted by Huggybeer Huggybeer wrote:

I've never seen a player more scrutinised as much, this for someone who has 277 premier league appearances, has never not turned up for his country when asked, never created noise or bullSh1t for club or country and gives 100% in every game.

If everyone who wore a green shirt for the last 12 years put in the same effort, we would have won allot more games. I appreciate hes not Inesta or Perlo, but not many are.

Have a look in the mirror, Play station players, who havent played the game beyond 5 aside astro.

Please stop this bashing of a loyal and honest servant to the green jersey



Again another idiotic lazy response.

What do you base these assumptions on?


I dont believe it is a Idiotic or Lazy
whats lazy is 128 pages of comments following suit of lazy Journalist like Eammon Dunphy in singling out one player, without knowing what direction has been given to a player and their responsibilities on the pitch. All this without questioning why successive Ireland and team managers choose to continue to play Glenn over twelve years as a senior player.

On my Comment re. play station/astro players, bashing a good pro on this forum, Im sure there is not to many on here has played at a relatively high level or gone beyond kick start 2 on the coaching ladder, if that. Presuming you have GD, I apologise but again I was speaking to the masses not individuals


Dunphy has a made living out of going against the grain and being controversial, he is an absolutely novelty figure who was on the panel for entertainment and comic value and nothing else.

On Whelan himself, I understand that players are given specific roles in teams and can negate the players influence as a result at times for sure. 

My gripe with having Whelan in the team is that we aren't expansive in the slightest and have a mentality to go out and try not to lose (not try win) and he typifies this mindset! 

Until we can pull ourselves away from being so negative and not having the cajones to go at teams we will stay firmly in the dark ages of European football. 

But again, posters will slate me and others for "not watching the job he does" when in truth and I've explained this a million times, Whelan is playing as a holding midfielder in one of the most negative and defensive minded teams in European football. We bypass midfield constantly when we have the ball and when we don't have the ball we just sit back and defend deep. 

He has one of the easiest jobs on the pitch, compare that to McGoldrick or even one our wingers and people have the balls to pull up stats on how our strikers aren't scoring or wingers aren't creating?

Again just because a chap never managed Man United or played for Real Madrid doesn't mean he can't have an opinion on a professional footballer?

"He drives two Ferraris; I think he's a very lucky lad to have 50 caps for Ireland,"

Eamonn Dunphy on Glenn Whelan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left foot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2019 at 1:18pm
The 'position of authority' arguement is not one that can really be used in football forum.

Mark Hughes picked Whelan for Stoke and his football credentials are much better than yours, therefore Whelan is....

You could say that pep Guardiola, Alex Ferguson and klopp have better credentials than Hughes and where not interested in Whelan , therefore whelan...

Having an opinion on a spectator sport, even as an armchair supporter is just as valid as anyone else's. You may not agree with it but that's the point of setting up a forum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2019 at 1:20pm
How positive can we be when we don’t have a midfielder who is any good though? That’s our handicap. I get your point, and there are ways around it, but no matter who else plays in midfield they hide from the ball. If Whelan gets the ball there is rarely a creative player to look for it and we don’t have one. The fact that some people see the solution as a lad playing alright in the LOI tells its story.

I have long defended Whelan on here, not because he is an amazing player, but because he gets constantly singled out when the bigger problem isn’t him. Playing without him we are often wide open. Cullen certainly looks a credible option and may improve our style and ball retention, but he can’t do on his own. Hourihane, Hendrick, Arter, Browne etc. are all incredibly limited and not very disciplined or hard working.
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