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Jimmy Raggatip 
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 Posted: 18 Jun 2023 at 12:49pm |
 Het-field wrote:
If we are to decide that we are less than Greece, then football in the country has dropped to a level where we can no longer expect to compete to attend major finals. It would mean that the current crop of players are indeed the weakest we have had for many years (this may be correct in any case), and it means that we there is a potential that we are gradually dropping off the footballing map. And this is where I disagree with the OP, no matter who players where, or how many minutes players get in European competition. |
I'm not sure how we can look at the past 5-6 years since the Denmark playoff defeat and deduce anything different. International sides who we face, and we predict on this forum that we will breeze past them primarily based on historical ranking and reputation, are improving and beating us instead. The coach is culpable sure, but the dearth of experienced international players we have coming into their prime is costing us, which is mainly Delaney's fault. We have a handful of good young players coming through but is it enough to arrest the slide? It is really hard not to look at the current side and not think it is the weakest group of players we have had in my life time, without going in to analysis of where they play their club football and how often they are playing
The way I see it there are two key things needed -
We firstly need a "wee bit of luck" - luck with draws, which we haven't had this current cycle, especially when you compare our group to a few of the others, a "lucky" Nations League draw may have put our standing in the queue for a playoff place much higher and not having to rely on numerous other teams qualifying outright, this in turn has a knock on effect for our seeding later on this decade, even if we had a really good team we would have been up against it against France and Holland
Secondly we need to play the game a bit more with regards recruiting granny rule players (again). We have to learn from the current mistake of having a squad without a balanced set of age profiles and come up with a plan - the national league set up is not producing a significant conveyor belt to the national team (an argument for another thread) so we need to be exploring all the avenues we can, many other nations are at it and it has been the catalyst for significant upturn in many of them
Like with a lot of things in football everything comes back to money. We píssed a lot of our financial backing up the wall and are now reaping what we have sowed. Again note the national league, in a time where many clubs in Europe are banking decent money from enhanced European club competition, our clubs miss out, and nations who are amongst our level have at least one or two top clubs who can generate this money earned into developing players and sustaining themselves in Europe, which in turn helps the national team. Salzburg, Dinamo Zagreb and Red Star Belgrade will all be in Pot 3 for the CL next season having racked up the coefficient points over the recent period.
I liken ourselves to Bulgaria - big in the 90s with top players, corruption amongst the top brass sees the money disappear, national league in the doldrums, reliance on old players delays the inevitable, rapid decline in the national team and no infrastructure to pull themselves out. They've had to start almost completely from scratch - their squad yesterday contained only 4 players over the age of 24
Hoping to qualify for major tournaments and expecting to qualify are two different things. I don't think we've been in a position where we can expect to qualify for a while.
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John Nice
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Posted: 18 Jun 2023 at 1:02pm |
Het-field wrote:
John Nice wrote:
I dont really know what that means, we cant just decide we are better than Greece, |
Because, that is not what I aid. If we pick a selection of random facts, including 'minutes' in UEFA Club Competitions we can of course conclude that Greece are better, and therefore we got what we ought to expect.
John Nice wrote:
we need to improve significantly to match them, that was clear on Friday night. This is part of our problem, people not actually understanding where we currently sit in the footballing hierarchy, we are a year or two into a complete rebuild which was absolutely necessary. A lot of the players coming in are young, inexperienced and just making their way in the game. This is going to take time, no matter who is in charge and people need to accept that at this moment in time, we are simply, at best, a pretty average 3rd seed side. |
No, we are two and a half years into the rebuild. Apart from the opening NL games in 2020, and the Play-off against Slovakia where radical alterations were not made (and Kenny was absolutely right not to change things radically), we started pivoting towards newer, younger, and less prominent players after the shoot-out loss. Funny how players like Evan Ferguson have come into the team this year, and look like pros already. Yet, the likes of Idah have been around the team for three years, and are struggling to make their mark. We have already seen the likes of Connolly, and Curtis fall off the train. Also, Kenny undoubtedly has a few favourites and go-to players. Doherty is a prime example. In the spirit of the rebuild, and on the back of their respective seasons, perhaps picking Ebosele would have been the correct approach
John Nice wrote:
This is not intended to be a defence of Kenny, I'm simply trying to inject a dose of realism (which often seems to be in short supply regarding where we stand) - we are still a fair way off becoming a team that can challenge for Top 2 consistently imo and I'm not sure there's a silver bullet, these lads need time to develop. A better manager may well help and is probably required at this stage, but it is still going to take time imo, we simply arent very good atm.
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I agree that a realistic appraisal of where we stand is very bleak indeed. But beyond just the manager, perhaps the current approach isn't fit for purpose? |
Greece were clearly a team in a better place than us prior to the game based on a range of factors, form, experience etc. The bookies knew a win for Greece was the most likely outcome, the entire footballing world knew it outside Ireland, but attempts to point that out beforehand were often met with derision and "they are sh*te" "we should be beating this lot" type comments. I did a count before the game, 15 Irish win predictions, 15 draw, 2 Greek win predictions. Now you do expect that on an Irish fan site, but there was a serious lack of realism in the build up.
Fair enough I'll give you 2 and a half years as regards the rebuild, Ebosele however has a torn hamstring and Coleman was injured. Put any manager in the world in charge of this Ireland team and they were selecting Doherty on Friday night and certainly picking him in the squad.
I'd say that there are now greater issues with the manager than with the approach. I still think the approach we are taking is correct, I am rapidly losing faith that Kenny is the right man to implement.
Edited by John Nice - 18 Jun 2023 at 1:03pm
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Fruice
Liam Brady
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Posted: 18 Jun 2023 at 1:37pm |
John Nice wrote:
Het-field wrote:
John Nice wrote:
I dont really know what that means, we cant just decide we are better than Greece, |
Because, that is not what I aid. If we pick a selection of random facts, including 'minutes' in UEFA Club Competitions we can of course conclude that Greece are better, and therefore we got what we ought to expect.
John Nice wrote:
we need to improve significantly to match them, that was clear on Friday night. This is part of our problem, people not actually understanding where we currently sit in the footballing hierarchy, we are a year or two into a complete rebuild which was absolutely necessary. A lot of the players coming in are young, inexperienced and just making their way in the game. This is going to take time, no matter who is in charge and people need to accept that at this moment in time, we are simply, at best, a pretty average 3rd seed side. |
No, we are two and a half years into the rebuild. Apart from the opening NL games in 2020, and the Play-off against Slovakia where radical alterations were not made (and Kenny was absolutely right not to change things radically), we started pivoting towards newer, younger, and less prominent players after the shoot-out loss. Funny how players like Evan Ferguson have come into the team this year, and look like pros already. Yet, the likes of Idah have been around the team for three years, and are struggling to make their mark. We have already seen the likes of Connolly, and Curtis fall off the train. Also, Kenny undoubtedly has a few favourites and go-to players. Doherty is a prime example. In the spirit of the rebuild, and on the back of their respective seasons, perhaps picking Ebosele would have been the correct approach
John Nice wrote:
This is not intended to be a defence of Kenny, I'm simply trying to inject a dose of realism (which often seems to be in short supply regarding where we stand) - we are still a fair way off becoming a team that can challenge for Top 2 consistently imo and I'm not sure there's a silver bullet, these lads need time to develop. A better manager may well help and is probably required at this stage, but it is still going to take time imo, we simply arent very good atm.
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I agree that a realistic appraisal of where we stand is very bleak indeed. But beyond just the manager, perhaps the current approach isn't fit for purpose? |
Greece were clearly a team in a better place than us prior to the game based on a range of factors, form, experience etc. The bookies knew a win for Greece was the most likely outcome, the entire footballing world knew it outside Ireland, but attempts to point that out beforehand were often met with derision and "they are sh*te" "we should be beating this lot" type comments. I did a count before the game, 15 Irish win predictions, 15 draw, 2 Greek win predictions. Now you do expect that on an Irish fan site, but there was a serious lack of realism in the build up.
Fair enough I'll give you 2 and a half years as regards the rebuild, Ebosele however has a torn hamstring and Coleman was injured. Put any manager in the world in charge of this Ireland team and they were selecting Doherty on Friday night and certainly picking him in the squad.
I'd say that there are now greater issues with the manager than with the approach. I still think the approach we are taking is correct, I am rapidly losing faith that Kenny is the right man to implement.
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While you might be right on Doherty Friday he was going to be selected but let’s not forget one of Kenny’s first big decisions was selecting Doherty over Coleman.
Secondly his decision to pick both Idah and Freguson was crazy.
Thirdly any one to select Keith Andrew as his assistant manager was madness.
All I’m trying to point out is his decision making process has been questionable from day 1.
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John Nice
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Posted: 18 Jun 2023 at 2:02pm |
Fruice wrote:
John Nice wrote:
Het-field wrote:
John Nice wrote:
I dont really know what that means, we cant just decide we are better than Greece, |
Because, that is not what I aid. If we pick a selection of random facts, including 'minutes' in UEFA Club Competitions we can of course conclude that Greece are better, and therefore we got what we ought to expect.
John Nice wrote:
we need to improve significantly to match them, that was clear on Friday night. This is part of our problem, people not actually understanding where we currently sit in the footballing hierarchy, we are a year or two into a complete rebuild which was absolutely necessary. A lot of the players coming in are young, inexperienced and just making their way in the game. This is going to take time, no matter who is in charge and people need to accept that at this moment in time, we are simply, at best, a pretty average 3rd seed side. |
No, we are two and a half years into the rebuild. Apart from the opening NL games in 2020, and the Play-off against Slovakia where radical alterations were not made (and Kenny was absolutely right not to change things radically), we started pivoting towards newer, younger, and less prominent players after the shoot-out loss. Funny how players like Evan Ferguson have come into the team this year, and look like pros already. Yet, the likes of Idah have been around the team for three years, and are struggling to make their mark. We have already seen the likes of Connolly, and Curtis fall off the train. Also, Kenny undoubtedly has a few favourites and go-to players. Doherty is a prime example. In the spirit of the rebuild, and on the back of their respective seasons, perhaps picking Ebosele would have been the correct approach
John Nice wrote:
This is not intended to be a defence of Kenny, I'm simply trying to inject a dose of realism (which often seems to be in short supply regarding where we stand) - we are still a fair way off becoming a team that can challenge for Top 2 consistently imo and I'm not sure there's a silver bullet, these lads need time to develop. A better manager may well help and is probably required at this stage, but it is still going to take time imo, we simply arent very good atm.
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I agree that a realistic appraisal of where we stand is very bleak indeed. But beyond just the manager, perhaps the current approach isn't fit for purpose? |
Greece were clearly a team in a better place than us prior to the game based on a range of factors, form, experience etc. The bookies knew a win for Greece was the most likely outcome, the entire footballing world knew it outside Ireland, but attempts to point that out beforehand were often met with derision and "they are sh*te" "we should be beating this lot" type comments. I did a count before the game, 15 Irish win predictions, 15 draw, 2 Greek win predictions. Now you do expect that on an Irish fan site, but there was a serious lack of realism in the build up.
Fair enough I'll give you 2 and a half years as regards the rebuild, Ebosele however has a torn hamstring and Coleman was injured. Put any manager in the world in charge of this Ireland team and they were selecting Doherty on Friday night and certainly picking him in the squad.
I'd say that there are now greater issues with the manager than with the approach. I still think the approach we are taking is correct, I am rapidly losing faith that Kenny is the right man to implement.
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While you might be right on Doherty Friday he was going to be selected but let’s not forget one of Kenny’s first big decisions was selecting Doherty over Coleman.
Secondly his decision to pick both Idah and Freguson was crazy.
Thirdly any one to select Keith Andrew as his assistant manager was madness.
All I’m trying to point out is his decision making process has been questionable from day 1.
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1) Did he really select Doherty over Coleman? I seem to remember him playing Coleman at CB and Doherty at both CB and LWB in order to get both in to the team. 2) I said exactly this before the game and there were several on here who thought it was the right way to go. It's easy to be wise after the fact! O'Dowda and Smallbone didnt work out either but many/most on here were advocating for both to start.
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Fruice
Liam Brady
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Posted: 18 Jun 2023 at 2:27pm |
He did he played Doherty at right back and left Coleman out.
There was an argument for the other 2 but two number 9s was mad.
He clearly has some issue with obafemi.
And what of Andrew’s?
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John Nice
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Posted: 18 Jun 2023 at 2:35pm |
Fruice wrote:
He did he played Doherty at right back and left Coleman out.
There was an argument for the other 2 but two number 9s was mad.
He clearly has some issue with obafemi.
And what of Andrew’s? |
Maybe once, but in general he has tried to accommodate both.
As I said, plenty on here and in the twittersphere were keen on the idea of pairing Idah and Ferguson together (I wasnt)
Obafemi has to really prove he is a 90 minute player, not sure he has played 90 minutes since before Christmas. I can absolutely understand why he didnt start. I dont really see how you can conclude that Kenny has an issue with him.
Andrews is part of the management team, I dont really have any knowledge as to his ability as a coach, but I have already indicated my disappointment with the set up and performance on Friday and he was clearly part of that decision making process, as was John O'Shea I might add.
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Banana_RepublicFC
Liam Brady
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Posted: 18 Jun 2023 at 2:39pm |
Fruice wrote:
He did he played Doherty at right back and left Coleman out.
There was an argument for the other 2 but two number 9s was mad.
He clearly has some issue with obafemi.
And what of Andrew’s? |
Obafemi hasn't been starting games at club level in 2023.
If he played O'Shea, Doherty and Obafemi, who would all be in Ireland's best XI, he'd be shooting himself in the foot. That's too many players lacking match fitness.
He played Idah and it didn't work. Not starting Obafemi wasn't the issue. He should have started Knight instead. That could have helped get to grips with the Greek midfield three. We would have had a numerical advantage with Cullen, Molumby, Knight and Smallbone.
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John Nice
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Posted: 18 Jun 2023 at 2:42pm |
Banana_RepublicFC wrote:
Fruice wrote:
He did he played Doherty at right back and left Coleman out.
There was an argument for the other 2 but two number 9s was mad.
He clearly has some issue with obafemi.
And what of Andrew’s? |
Obafemi hasn't been starting games at club level in 2023.
If he played O'Shea, Doherty and Obafemi, who would all be in Ireland's best XI, he'd be shooting himself in the foot. That's too many players lacking match fitness.
He played Idah and it didn't work. Not starting Obafemi wasn't the issue. He should have started Knight instead. That could have helped get to grips with the Greek midfield three. We would have had a numerical advantage with Cullen, Molumby, Knight and Smallbone. |
Agreed, starting Obafemi over Idah would not have made a difference, we should have played the box midfield that we played vs France.
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Terzino
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Posted: 18 Jun 2023 at 10:10pm |
Idah has never looked like scoring for Ireland. He's an okay target-man, but having him in the starting team was the wrong call.
And that's not hindsight talking. That's based on merit.
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Fruice
Liam Brady
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Posted: 18 Jun 2023 at 11:18pm |
John Nice wrote:
Fruice wrote:
He did he played Doherty at right back and left Coleman out.
There was an argument for the other 2 but two number 9s was mad.
He clearly has some issue with obafemi.
And what of Andrew’s? |
Maybe once, but in general he has tried to accommodate both.
As I said, plenty on here and in the twittersphere were keen on the idea of pairing Idah and Ferguson together (I wasnt)
Obafemi has to really prove he is a 90 minute player, not sure he has played 90 minutes since before Christmas. I can absolutely understand why he didnt start. I dont really see how you can conclude that Kenny has an issue with him.
Andrews is part of the management team, I dont really have any knowledge as to his ability as a coach, but I have already indicated my disappointment with the set up and performance on Friday and he was clearly part of that decision making process, as was John O'Shea I might add.
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Fair enough if he’s not fit to start but neither has Doherty and he started.
But he’ll from the looking at objectively with obafemi he has some issue with him in general.
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