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Sham157 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sham157 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 12:06am
Originally posted by Lenny82 Lenny82 wrote:

I do realise how cold and horrible this sounds by the way, and I know the majority won't agree with me. I in no way mean to cause offence to those affected by these tragedies and I know that families are still suffering every day since. God bless them.
Maybe bring it home to yourself. I go for a few pints tonight, I drive because Im only having 2 pints and sure im usually grand. I end up having a few more and then drive home but sure it was only a few more pints. I get into my car and deive because Im not to know what will happen. I smash into you or your family wiping out one or two of them potentionally. I wasn5 to know that was going to happen, so nothing to see here folks, no point in you looking for justice for your family that ive just wiped out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lenny82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 12:20am
I get your point but your scenario is a complete disregard for the law whereas the other is ignorance.

What does justice for Stardust and Hillsborough equate to?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sham157 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 12:32am
Originally posted by Lenny82 Lenny82 wrote:

I get your point but your scenario is a complete disregard for the law whereas the other is ignorance.

What does justice for Stardust and Hillsborough equate to?
But it wasnt ignorance, it was a choice. 

Justice equates to those responsible being convicted in the criminal semse but also, more importantly in the case of Stardust, equates to what happened that night, what caused what happened to happen being made known, which in the Stardust case has not happened. In other words, answers and closure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lenny82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 12:52am
So, find the barman/lounge-boy who padlocked the side door to stop lads letting their mates in for free. Find the steward who decided 'f**k it, open the gates and let them all in'. Drag them through the courts and give them a custodial sentence.

Do we need to look at the people who opened those side doors to let their pals in for the weeks/months before that? Do we need to look at the fans who showed up at the stadium without a ticket and forced their way in?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 1:28am
Originally posted by Lenny82 Lenny82 wrote:

I get your point but your scenario is a complete disregard for the law whereas the other is ignorance.

What does justice for Stardust and Hillsborough equate to?


Lessons being learned, similar incidents not happening again, and those responsible not escaping because of institutional cover ups.

There's little doubt that it does few favours to see people on trial for Hillsborough now but, frankly, for too long there was a total lack of appreciation of three things: 1) the rights of the families of those who died (in both tragedies) to find out what happened without feeling like they, too, were banging up against a brick wall; 2) the fact that if there were people or, more importantly, systems responsible for what happened (in both tragedies) that they were simply not considered and, most importantly, that there was nothing being done to prevent a repeat; and 3) public perception and the fact that holders of public office must both do and be seen to be doing the best they can in the circumstances. Here, I'm not talking about those on the ground at the time, I'm talking about those that came afterwards, with the inquests and inquiries in both cases.

Look at Andy Burnham on Hillsborough. Look the video of him at Anfield about ten years ago, then look at everything that he has done since then. That's what the start of justice looks like.

Justice is not just about people being held accountable. It's about a justice system you can believe in, a justice system that is responsive to people, a justice system that is not afraid to admit when things go wrong and a justice system that doesn't allow people to escape because of active institutional cover ups.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sham157 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 3:53am
Originally posted by Lenny82 Lenny82 wrote:

So, find the barman/lounge-boy who padlocked the side door to stop lads letting their mates in for free. Find the steward who decided 'f**k it, open the gates and let them all in'. Drag them through the courts and give them a custodial sentence.

Do we need to look at the people who opened those side doors to let their pals in for the weeks/months before that? Do we need to look at the fans who showed up at the stadium without a ticket and forced their way in?
You’re just being flippant now. You could use your ‘logic’ in any walk of life and nobody would be accountable for anything, justice would neither be done nor seen to be done. I find it quite disturbing that you would seemingly deny relatives of those lost in any tragedy the justice and or answers they deserve, be that Stardust, Hillsborough, the Brazilian Dam collapse recently, the Russiian Submarine the Kursk, the Sala Plane crash etc etc.

if you employ that logic to the cases you mentioned, then it would apply to them all? Or are you being selective because of the time frame invilved? You might say that these happened ages ago whereas the Sala plane crash was only very recent, but would youn stand in front of the families and honestly look them in tne eye and say what happened and their fight for the answers they crave and deserve arent important anymore because it happened back then? On the other hand, perhaps its really a case of it didnt affect you so the ‘I’m alright Jack’ mindset comes into play.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Huntacha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 4:33am
Originally posted by Sham157 Sham157 wrote:

Originally posted by Lenny82 Lenny82 wrote:

I get your point but your scenario is a complete disregard for the law whereas the other is ignorance.

What does justice for Stardust and Hillsborough equate to?
But it wasnt ignorance, it was a choice. 

Justice equates to those responsible being convicted in the criminal semse but also, more importantly in the case of Stardust, equates to what happened that night, what caused what happened to happen being made known, which in the Stardust case has not happened. In other words, answers and closure.

Cannot be simplified any more than that. This should provide more information for you Lenny, in case you're looking for it;

As we have been usefully reminded during the week, the tribunal of inquiry into the Stardust fire found that the owner Eamon Butterly had acted with "reckless disregard" for the safety of those on the premises. The locked fire exits, the breaching of fire regulations, the failure to comply with public safety bylaws were all clearly catalogued by that tribunal.

The State was also held to be negligent. Insufficient action had been taken when it was discovered that regulations were being flouted, particularly those relating to fire exits.

There were serious errors and omissions in the conversion of the building, together with breaches of requirements of the chief fire officer, relevant bylaws and the fire protection standards of the Department of the Environment. All of this contributed to 48 deaths, according to the inquiry.

And yet, no one was held to account. The finding of the tribunal that arson was the probable cause of the fire, despite any clear evidence to support this, diverted the emphasis away from the combined negligence of the State and the Stardust owners.

It shifted the primary responsibility for the tragedy on to person or persons unknown, thus diffusing the relatives' and survivors' demands for justice.

The courts were never asked to rule on civil liability for the disaster. Hundreds of victims tried to take legal action, but the obstacles were enormous. The prohibition on class actions, long delays within the system, and mounting legal costs all conspired to make them choose instead the route of the compensation tribunal set up in 1985.

While established in good faith to assist the victims, this particular tribunal served to protect both the State and the Stardust owners from any direct court finding to determine the extent of their liability for the disaster. In choosing compensation, the victims had to agree not to pursue any further legal action in respect of their injuries or loss. They were left with little choice, and many felt that they were being paid off to shut them up and quietly close the chapter on the Stardust.


Not to mention that Butterly received over half a million pounds due to the "probable arson" determination.

The greatest loss of life in a single incident in the history of the State requires a level of justice and accountability that has not occurred even after nearly 40 years.


Edited by The Huntacha - 18 Feb 2019 at 4:41am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob Hoskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 10:34am
I'm 45 years old and lost my mother in Stardust,  but your right Lenny time moves on and I couldn't care less about it, and that Butterly fellah seems great it gives me a warm glow thinking of the big payout he got as well Thumbs Up

Ok so I didn't lose my mother but there would be plenty in that situation- the audacity of the those fmailies to want to find out the truth, time wasters could be posting updates on instagram or something useful like that 
Romario 2016: And the ticket mafia gets caught! Well, four years ago I had already told the government.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 11:14am
LOL f**king hell.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flanno7hi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 2:06pm
Jesus Christ, if you want to see what justice would like maybe look at the difference in the way those responsible for the station nightclub fire in the states were treated
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire
Also, there seems to have been a concerted effort to cover up the truth and to lead the enquiry to an arson verdict in particular the fact that the storeroom containing a lot flamamble liquids was in the ceiling space next to electrical cabling and not "above the basement" as was claimed in the official report (there was no basement).
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irishmufc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by Flanno7hi Flanno7hi wrote:

Jesus Christ, if you want to see what justice would like maybe look at the difference in the way those responsible for the station nightclub fire in the states were treated
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire
Also, there seems to have been a concerted effort to cover up the truth and to lead the enquiry to an arson verdict in particular the fact that the storeroom containing a lot flamamble liquids was in the ceiling space next to electrical cabling and not "above the basement" as was claimed in the official report (there was no basement).
 
 

Watched the 6 part mini docs on that a few weeks back on you tube. The video footage is very chilling. Literally in the space of 30 seconds it went from the music being played to total panic. The cameraman was smart enough to leave as soon as he did. 
Wings? They're only the band The Beatles could have been.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flanno7hi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2019 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by Flanno7hi Flanno7hi wrote:

Jesus Christ, if you want to see what justice would like maybe look at the difference in the way those responsible for the station nightclub fire in the states were treated
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire
Also, there seems to have been a concerted effort to cover up the truth and to lead the enquiry to an arson verdict in particular the fact that the storeroom containing a lot flamamble liquids was in the ceiling space next to electrical cabling and not "above the basement" as was claimed in the official report (there was no basement).
 
 

Watched the 6 part mini docs on that a few weeks back on you tube. The video footage is very chilling. Literally in the space of 30 seconds it went from the music being played to total panic. The cameraman was smart enough to leave as soon as he did. 
 
He didn't get out fast enough:
 
In February 2008, Providence television station WPRI-TV made an out-of-court settlement of $30 million as a result of the claim that their video journalist was said to be obstructing escape and not sufficiently helping people exit.[36]
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eireland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2019 at 12:34am
I was going to ask if they locked them to stop people opening them and letting lads in but I see that's already confirmed. Many nightclubs I used to attend the staffs heads would be wrecked with lads opening them and then about 20 fellas rushing in. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DUBLIN DOC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2019 at 10:40am
Originally posted by Lenny82 Lenny82 wrote:

Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

Originally posted by Lenny82 Lenny82 wrote:

Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

38 years since they never came home and still no justice.Angry

What, in your opinion, would be justice?
 
A public apology to the bereaved families for the suppressing of vital evidence which throws serious doubt on the findings in the Keane tribunal.

A public apology from whom?

Some dopey f**ker padlocked the fire escapes. Could never have known what would follow. Do we really want to turn somebody in to a public figure of hate for something they are probably beating themselves up over every day for the last 38 years?

Not popular, but this, and the Hillsborough campaign, do my head in.
This has to be a piss take, if not this coont must be the thickest fckin fckwit I have ever encountered relating to this fckin tragedy, as someone who lost members of my extended family and plenty of their friends both dead or maimed for life both mentally and physically , I’m fckin fuming here only seeing this now what an absolute fckin uneducated w**ker and if any mod thinks my reaction to this is a bit ott fire away and ban or delete, I hope to fck something like this never touches your fckin life fckin arsehole
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irishmufc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2019 at 10:41am
Originally posted by Flanno7hi Flanno7hi wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by Flanno7hi Flanno7hi wrote:

Jesus Christ, if you want to see what justice would like maybe look at the difference in the way those responsible for the station nightclub fire in the states were treated
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire
Also, there seems to have been a concerted effort to cover up the truth and to lead the enquiry to an arson verdict in particular the fact that the storeroom containing a lot flamamble liquids was in the ceiling space next to electrical cabling and not "above the basement" as was claimed in the official report (there was no basement).
 
 

Watched the 6 part mini docs on that a few weeks back on you tube. The video footage is very chilling. Literally in the space of 30 seconds it went from the music being played to total panic. The cameraman was smart enough to leave as soon as he did. 
 
He didn't get out fast enough:
 
In February 2008, Providence television station WPRI-TV made an out-of-court settlement of $30 million as a result of the claim that their video journalist was said to be obstructing escape and not sufficiently helping people exit.[36]
 

Feck sake. Didn't see that. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lenny82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2019 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by DUBLIN DOC DUBLIN DOC wrote:

Originally posted by Lenny82 Lenny82 wrote:

Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

Originally posted by Lenny82 Lenny82 wrote:

Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

38 years since they never came home and still no justice.Angry

What, in your opinion, would be justice?
 
A public apology to the bereaved families for the suppressing of vital evidence which throws serious doubt on the findings in the Keane tribunal.

A public apology from whom?

Some dopey f**ker padlocked the fire escapes. Could never have known what would follow. Do we really want to turn somebody in to a public figure of hate for something they are probably beating themselves up over every day for the last 38 years?

Not popular, but this, and the Hillsborough campaign, do my head in.
This has to be a piss take, if not this coont must be the thickest fckin fckwit I have ever encountered relating to this fckin tragedy, as someone who lost members of my extended family and plenty of their friends both dead or maimed for life both mentally and physically , I’m fckin fuming here only seeing this now what an absolute fckin uneducated w**ker and if any mod thinks my reaction to this is a bit ott fire away and ban or delete, I hope to fck something like this never touches your fckin life fckin arsehole

Jesus Doc, sorry for your loss. My original question was what does justice look like and if it is merely an apology, then who should it come from. I've heard many campaigners seek many different things in terms of justice such as an apology, somebody held accountable, another tribunal etc. so I think it is improbable that everybody will be appeased.

I must admit, I have learned a lot about the Stardust the past few days so apologies for the ignorance or for any offence. If the findings of the tribunal are true, as pointed out in Huntacha's post, then Eamon Butterly is  solely accountable here given his breaches of fire regulations and failure to comply with other regulations. Justice would be Butterly on trial for the deaths of 38 people.
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