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'New York style' Zero Tolerence.Wouldit work here?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irishmufc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by Mr Marbles Mr Marbles wrote:

There is a theory that the reason crime dropped at this time was due to abortion being made legal in New York two decades or so before and had little or nothing to do with police policy


That sounds like hocus pocus tbh.Im only going by what my cousins said who lived there but it was certainly a policy of hands on policing in all areas to combat it.I could be wrong though.The abortion thing may have helped but I doubt it was a substantial factor tbh
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:06pm
There's another theory that the elimination of lead piping in the water supply meant there was less stunted development and brain problems in people, resulting in less crime. There's definite correlation, but the causation argument is sketchy enough.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irishmufc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

It works provided you have increased detection, prosecution and conviction rates. The biggest problem in Ireland at the minute is the detection and prosecution rates. Just about everyone charged with a minor crime is convicted. There are very, very few people who are caught who get away on technicalities. The biggest problem is the shrinking size of the Garda Siochana, not the conviction of people charged with crimes. That certainly doesn't help. If criminals think they'll get away with it, they have no problem committing the crime. If they think they'll get caught (regardless of the punishment, more or less) they are a lot less likely to commit the crime.


Ok SD i know your theory but we'll say you are the Minister for Justice as of now.Could you provide an example of the type of framework you would implement?

Is there anything we could adopt from the New York example or is it just too much of a different scenario to really take anything from.At the moment people are repeating offences whether they're minor or adults.Is it really simply a case of not enough Police being about or is there any other factor you could introduce?

Anyone ever in New York,you cant walk two feet without seeing some type of police presence.I never see any police when lads are beating the heads of each other outside the local take away.Would arming the police or certain specific changes in criminal law that you'd be familiar with work?


The scenario isn't that different. Crime was a lot worse in the US back then though.

First thing I would do is re-open Templemore and hire a load of gardai. From my own interaction with the guards, a lot of the paperwork is done by Sergeants rather than rank and file Gardai, who are left a lot more free to do actual policing. I would make sure no Garda is in court unless they need to be and make sure the majority of court work is done by Sergeants with the arresting Garda only showing up if the matter is definitely going on for hearing. I would have loads more Gardai stationed in trouble areas and out on the beat, rather than in their cars.

In terms of paying for it, I would reduce prison sentences for non-violent offenders and increase spending on drug treatment and addiction courses. A lot of that is done by voluntary organisations and that's not really on. I wouldn't necessarily reduce spending in prisons but I would probably introduce a rule banning tvs in cells (not sure if they have them at the minute, I think they do) and spend the money on education and books and such. I would also try and eliminate the mandatory minimum sentences for drug dealing over a certain amount, but only where the person caught does not own the drugs (that is, where they are mules) which should reduce prison costs. While ideally I would legalise possession of just about every drug where it is for personal use (it is working brilliantly in Portugal in lowering addiction rates) I would continue to hammer dealers where possible.

There's no guarantee any of this would work. However, I don't think it would make things worse and it might improve things. Nothing ventured, nothing gained and all that.


Good post SD.Ireland imo is still a pretty conservative country.Id imagine you may have trouble implementing these logical changes in terms of de-criminalising/legalising drugs for personal use as to be passed as a law.Definitely agree with ya on reducing sentences on non-violent crimes. Overall the need for more of a police presence in personnel terms and on the beat is the main point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Is it true that all they did was dump all the criminals in to New Jersey. Not sure where I heard that, but that was a suggestion I read somewhere. Is there any truth to that. 

 

.
You've been watching too many Sopranos episodes .

Joking aside New Jersey has some pretty rough areas.There s one place called Camden (I think) thats meant to be the roughest town/small city in the U.S.

Yeah I read somewhere that this was a by product of what happened in Manhattan.  Not sure how true it is.  Kinda like cleaning up Dublin at the expense of Meath. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irishmufc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

There's another theory that the elimination of lead piping in the water supply meant there was less stunted development and brain problems in people, resulting in less crime. There's definite correlation, but the causation argument is sketchy enough.


Again there's alot to be said for the psychology behind criminal actions but on ground level terms,the fact there was a change in philosophy in dealing with crime from whatever lenient system there was preceeding it to zero tolerence.It literally was an overnight war on crime headed by people like Bratton and Giuliani and it cost alot of money but New York is seeing the benefits of it for the last 20 years or so
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:17pm
Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

There's another theory that the elimination of lead piping in the water supply meant there was less stunted development and brain problems in people, resulting in less crime. There's definite correlation, but the causation argument is sketchy enough.


Again there's alot to be said for the psychology behind criminal actions but on ground level terms,the fact there was a change in philosophy in dealing with crime from whatever lenient system there was preceeding it to zero tolerence.It literally was an overnight war on crime headed by people like Bratton and Giuliani and it cost alot of money but New York is seeing the benefits of it for the last 20 years or so


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irishmufc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

There's another theory that the elimination of lead piping in the water supply meant there was less stunted development and brain problems in people, resulting in less crime. There's definite correlation, but the causation argument is sketchy enough.


Again there's alot to be said for the psychology behind criminal actions but on ground level terms,the fact there was a change in philosophy in dealing with crime from whatever lenient system there was preceeding it to zero tolerence.It literally was an overnight war on crime headed by people like Bratton and Giuliani and it cost alot of money but New York is seeing the benefits of it for the last 20 years or so



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I actually studied English Literature for 3 years in college.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eire77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:25pm
Are ye sure that zero tolerance is tougher punishment for first time offenders? I was under the impression that it was more to do with prosecuting ALL offences no matter how minor or trivial.

I'm a massive fan of the "3 strikes and you're out" policy. I think courts can, and often should, be lenient on first time offenders. Anyone can make a mistake or be in a difficult situation and make the incorrect decision. Once you use your first chance and move into two or three offences the book should be thrown at you.

This crap of lads with 60 or 70 convictions is absolute lunacy.

Edited by eire77 - 01 Oct 2013 at 5:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:25pm
Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

There's another theory that the elimination of lead piping in the water supply meant there was less stunted development and brain problems in people, resulting in less crime. There's definite correlation, but the causation argument is sketchy enough.


Again there's alot to be said for the psychology behind criminal actions but on ground level terms,the fact there was a change in philosophy in dealing with crime from whatever lenient system there was preceeding it to zero tolerence.It literally was an overnight war on crime headed by people like Bratton and Giuliani and it cost alot of money but New York is seeing the benefits of it for the last 20 years or so



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I actually studied English Literature for 3 years in college.

nice spot ya cxxt


You use the term "alot" (sic) a lot on here, did not take much to spot it, its in many of your posts.  


Edited by Baldrick - 01 Oct 2013 at 5:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperDave84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:25pm
There's actually two "alot"s in that post. The other is three words in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:26pm
Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

There's actually two "alot"s in that post. The other is three words in.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eire77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:36pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

There's another theory that the elimination of lead piping in the water supply meant there was less stunted development and brain problems in people, resulting in less crime. There's definite correlation, but the causation argument is sketchy enough.


Again there's alot to be said for the psychology behind criminal actions but on ground level terms,the fact there was a change in philosophy in dealing with crime from whatever lenient system there was preceeding it to zero tolerence.It literally was an overnight war on crime headed by people like Bratton and Giuliani and it cost alot of money but New York is seeing the benefits of it for the last 20 years or so



ahem Wink




I actually studied English Literature for 3 years in college.

nice spot ya cxxt


You use the term "alot" (sic) a lot on here, did not take much to spot it, its in many of your posts.  

Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by eire77 eire77 wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by irishmufc irishmufc wrote:

Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

There's another theory that the elimination of lead piping in the water supply meant there was less stunted development and brain problems in people, resulting in less crime. There's definite correlation, but the causation argument is sketchy enough.


Again there's alot to be said for the psychology behind criminal actions but on ground level terms,the fact there was a change in philosophy in dealing with crime from whatever lenient system there was preceeding it to zero tolerence.It literally was an overnight war on crime headed by people like Bratton and Giuliani and it cost alot of money but New York is seeing the benefits of it for the last 20 years or so



ahem Wink




I actually studied English Literature for 3 years in college.

nice spot ya cxxt


You use the term "alot" (sic) a lot on here, did not take much to spot it, its in many of your posts.  

Wink

LOL  Said it earlier there will be many posts I make which have mistakes both in the context of spelling and grammar.  That is why I used the words consistent.  Everybody makes typos especially on forums.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irishmufc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 6:11pm
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

Originally posted by SuperDave84 SuperDave84 wrote:

There's actually two "alot"s in that post. The other is three words in.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hoosay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by eire77 eire77 wrote:

Are ye sure that zero tolerance is tougher punishment for first time offenders? I was under the impression that it was more to do with prosecuting ALL offences no matter how minor or trivial.

I'm a massive fan of the "3 strikes and you're out" policy. I think courts can, and often should, be lenient on first time offenders. Anyone can make a mistake or be in a difficult situation and make the incorrect decision. Once you use your first chance and move into two or three offences the book should be thrown at you.

This crap of lads with 60 or 70 convictions is absolute lunacy.

Yes it's a policy of prosecuting all offences no matter how trivial and applying the punishment consistently, not necessarily harsher punishments just no letting people off smaller things.
 
There's no absolute proof that it works, crime did drop in NY during the zero tolerance period, but crime had been dropping before that, and crime dropped across the US over the same period including in cities that didn't have a similar policy. As someone mentioned there is a theory, I think it comes from superfreakonomics, that the drop in crime in NY also corresponds 20 or so year anniversary of abortion legalisation.

Ultimately though I reckon SuperDave is right, it doesn't matter what your prosecution policy is, if you have more police on the streets doing actual police work, crime will drop. NY hired more police, crime rates fell, arguably they would have fallen without the zero tolerance policy with the police numbers they had.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irishmufc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2013 at 7:32pm
Originally posted by Hoosay Hoosay wrote:

Originally posted by eire77 eire77 wrote:

Are ye sure that zero tolerance is tougher punishment for first time offenders? I was under the impression that it was more to do with prosecuting ALL offences no matter how minor or trivial.

I'm a massive fan of the "3 strikes and you're out" policy. I think courts can, and often should, be lenient on first time offenders. Anyone can make a mistake or be in a difficult situation and make the incorrect decision. Once you use your first chance and move into two or three offences the book should be thrown at you.

This crap of lads with 60 or 70 convictions is absolute lunacy.


Yes it's a policy of prosecuting all offences no matter how trivial and applying the punishment consistently, not necessarily harsher punishments just no letting people off smaller things.
 
There's no absolute proof that it works, crime did drop in NY during the zero tolerance period, but crime had been dropping before that, and crime dropped across the US over the same period including in cities that didn't have a similar policy. As someone mentioned there is a theory, I think it comes from superfreakonomics, that the drop in crime in NY also corresponds 20 or so year anniversary of abortion legalisation.

Ultimately though I reckon SuperDave is right, it doesn't matter what your prosecution policy is, if you have more police on the streets doing actual police work, crime will drop. NY hired more police, crime rates fell, arguably they would have fallen without the zero tolerance policy with the police numbers they had.


Good post Hoosay.I do think people can fall into the trap of revisionism when it comes to zero tolerence.In football terms we've a revisionist mindset that if Jack Charlton played a passing game we'd have won the world cup.It wasn't zero tolerence there was a drop in crime anyway.When people like ourselves look at things retrospectively, there's always going to be a chance of inaccuracies.My cousins lived there at this time and seen it first hand, but then when they were relaying their experiences to me there's always the risk of exaggeration.
What I do think is definite is there was a change in philosophy in New York which was supposed to have been a very dangerous city before Bratton implemented his changes.There was certainly not the police presence back then as there is now
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