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Roy Keane
Roy Keane

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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:


Imagine, a politician sticking to his principles! He has made it perfectly clear that his supporters should not vote for Le Pen, that is enough for me. I don't think anyone could want or expect him to endorse a neo-liberal candidate.


True. But as per the article, there are suggestions of abstaining and vote spoiling, which is totally irresponsible. That is where he has gone totally wrong, and being ideological about it is just cynical. And as I said, he done it before in 2002. This is utterly self serving.

Edited by Het-field - 26 Apr 2017 at 11:26pm
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Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:


Imagine, a politician sticking to his principles! He has made it perfectly clear that his supporters should not vote for Le Pen, that is enough for me. I don't think anyone could want or expect him to endorse a neo-liberal candidate.


True. But as per the article, there are suggestions of abstaining and vote spoiling, which is totally irresponsible. That is where he has gone totally wrong, and being ideological about it is just cynical.
I disagree, politics should be about principles and I admire him for keeping his. He has made it perfectly clear what he thinks of both candidates while making it even clearer that nobody should vote Le Pen. It is the very opposite of cynical, endorsing a candidate from a political position he despises, merely because he is running against one from a position he despises more, that would be cynical.
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Roy Keane
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:


I disagree, politics should be about principles and I admire him for keeping his. He has made it perfectly clear what he thinks of both candidates while making it even clearer that nobody should vote Le Pen. It is the very opposite of cynical, endorsing a candidate from a political position he despises, merely because he is running against one from a position he despises more, that would be cynical.


But in a tight race his 19% would make all the difference. By even suggesting abstentions and vote spoiling he is playing with fire, which could have really bad results in a tight race. It is utterly irresponsible considering he has the ear of 19% of the voters. Also, this is the FN in the mix. That should be more than enough to do all he can to convince his people to rally against her, not give her a potential lifeline through abstentions.
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Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:


I disagree, politics should be about principles and I admire him for keeping his. He has made it perfectly clear what he thinks of both candidates while making it even clearer that nobody should vote Le Pen. It is the very opposite of cynical, endorsing a candidate from a political position he despises, merely because he is running against one from a position he despises more, that would be cynical.


But in a tight race his 19% would make all the difference. By even suggesting abstentions and vote spoiling he is playing with fire, which could have really bad results in a tight race. It is utterly irresponsible considering he has the ear of 19% of the voters. Also, this is the FN in the mix. That should be more than enough to do all he can to convince his people to rally against her, not give her a potential lifeline through abstentions.
The argument from within the left in France, and it is one that I can perfectly understand, is that after 5 years of Macron the FN will be stronger than ever and an alternative will be needed, a left that has endorsed a kamikaze capitalist would be incredibly weak. She isn't going to win, it will be five more years of the same for France and maybe even worse and then she can turn around and say, correctly, that the left endorsed and promoted this.
I think he has called it right and I am sure the results, when broken down, will bear this out.
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:


The argument from within the left in France, and it is one that I can perfectly understand, is that after 5 years of Macron the FN will be stronger than ever and an alternative will be needed, a left that has endorsed a kamikaze capitalist would be incredibly weak. She isn't going to win, it will be five more years of the same for France and maybe even worse and then she can turn around and say, correctly, that the left endorsed and promoted this.
I think he has called it right and I am sure the results, when broken down, will bear this out.


First, that is assuming Macron wins. I agree, and I think he will, but through abstentions and spoling that could play into Le Pen's hands. Second, it is natural that the hard left will automatically determine Macron's regime to be a failure before he is even elected. Third, the next five years could give rise to a shift from the hard left and the hard right, which will hopefully render both Le Pen and Melenchon utterly irrelevant at which point Melenchon will be remembered for failing to endorse a candidate who was running against Le Pen.
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Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:


The argument from within the left in France, and it is one that I can perfectly understand, is that after 5 years of Macron the FN will be stronger than ever and an alternative will be needed, a left that has endorsed a kamikaze capitalist would be incredibly weak. She isn't going to win, it will be five more years of the same for France and maybe even worse and then she can turn around and say, correctly, that the left endorsed and promoted this.
I think he has called it right and I am sure the results, when broken down, will bear this out.


First, that is assuming Macron wins. I agree, and I think he will, but through abstentions and spoling that could play into Le Pen's hands. Second, it is natural that the hard left will automatically determine Macron's regime to be a failure before he is even elected. Third, the next five years could give rise to a shift from the hard left and the hard right, which will hopefully render both Le Pen and Melenchon utterly irrelevant at which point Melenchon will be remembered for failing to endorse a candidate who was running against Le Pen.
Hard left always makes me s*****r.
Another five years of the neo-liberal policies, the policies that have caused the problems that led to people to turning to Le Pen in the first place, is hardly going to lead more people wanting more failed capitalism.
Of course Macron's regime will be a failure, I expect more people to be impoverished in the cities and rural France to be decimated. Hopefully the solid left will be there to pick up the pieces and make the lives of the French public better.
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Hard left always makes me s*****r.
Another five years of the neo-liberal policies, the policies that have caused the problems that led to people to turning to Le Pen in the first place, is hardly going to lead more people wanting more failed capitalism.
Of course Macron's regime will be a failure, I expect more people to be impoverished in the cities and rural France to be decimated. Hopefully the solid left will be there to pick up the pieces and make the lives of the French public better.
[/QUOTE]

Macron is not a Neo Liberal. What caused the problems was not capitalism, but failed attempts at taxing right and spending left. Notwithstanding where France will be in 5 years, which is entirely up for debate, Melenchon should have acted in a similar manner to 2002 rather than irresponsibly acting in his own interests to avoid having to endorse a "capitalist", when faced with the most dangerous outcome in European politics.
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Robbie Keane
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Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:


Hard left always makes me s*****r.
Another five years of the neo-liberal policies, the policies that have caused the problems that led to people to turning to Le Pen in the first place, is hardly going to lead more people wanting more failed capitalism.
Of course Macron's regime will be a failure, I expect more people to be impoverished in the cities and rural France to be decimated. Hopefully the solid left will be there to pick up the pieces and make the lives of the French public better.


Macron is not a Neo Liberal. What caused the problems was not capitalism, but failed attempts at taxing right and spending left. Notwithstanding where France will be in 5 years, which is entirely up for debate, Melenchon should have acted in a similar manner to 2002 rather than irresponsibly acting in his own interests to avoid having to endorse a "capitalist", when faced with the most dangerous outcome in European politics. [/QUOTE]
I think he is the very definition of neo-liberal, as I have said he is the French Blair. I would argue that taxing right and spending left are the basic tenets of both neo-liberalism and capitalism, modern capitalism at left.
It isn't acting in his own interests to endorse Macron, it is in the interests of what he believes in. I know principles are a dirty word for those of you on the right.


Edited by pre Madonna - 27 Apr 2017 at 12:26am
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Roy Keane
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Not acting in his own interests would involve a simple rebuke of LePen and nothing more. Instead he has gone one step further with suggestions of electoral disobedience through spoilage and abstention which could have a very bad outcome in the case of a tight election, and in this case her defeat will be in spite of his behaviour.

Furthermore, political principle and adherence to ideology are two different things, and in the past both have led to very bad results, with leaders hiding behind principle in order to further their ideology. The Far Left are very good at that.
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Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Not acting in his own interests would involve a simple rebuke of LePen and nothing more. Instead he has gone one step further with suggestions of electoral disobedience through spoilage and abstention which could have a very bad outcome in the case of a tight election, and in this case her defeat will be in spite of his behaviour.

Furthermore, political principle and adherence to ideology are two different things, and in the past both have led to very bad results, with leaders hiding behind principle in order to further their ideology. The Far Left are very good at that.
He understands that many voters on the left wouldn't be able to bring themselves to vote for Macron, I know I wouldn't. It isn't against the law to spoil a vote, I have done it myself and will , I would hazard a guess, do it more in my lifetime than actually vote. Everybody knows that Le Pen won't win, why endorse the other ****? Why would her defeat have anything to do with JLM's behaviour? You are going off on tangents, if Macron manages to f**k this position up it says more about him.
Incidentally, do you think he would come out and endorse JLM if the roles were reversed?

I completely disagree, there is no point in having principles if you don't have an ideology, that is the main problem with modern politics; nobody has either. I believe the two are directly connected.
By the way, JLM is just leftwing and not 'far-left'. That is the problem with the current Overton window, anybody who even mentions applying basic tenets of democratic socialism is called out as some sort of radical Trotskyite. I wish a Trotskyite could get near to 20% in an election in Britain or France! 
To think Le Pen complains when she is called a fascist! Everyone on the left is constantly mislabelled in an attempt to undermine, which reminds me,I better go read the headlines.
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why the socialists suffered such a fall from grace is because after everything hollande promised in 2012 he didn't do, rather he continued on the ways of Sarkozy. this along with the rising tide of suicide bombers and terrorist attacks has led a mass of votes in the north east and south east of the country to get behind le pen.
there are elections parliament elections in june whereby the make-up will be of socialists and republicans, so the two main political parties are still very much involved in the running of the country, however, instead of having one or the other as a leader, it is macron. macron's new party 'En Marche' currently have one in parliament so unless there is a switch to some of their candidates, then they still won't have much of a voice and macron will have to work on bringing the best and worst of both sides together.
 
macron has finally got the finger out this week and got on the road; he visited the whirlpool factory yesterday that is expected to close in the near future, proper le pen territory. he was welcome with boos and jeers, yet he stayed for an hour and discussed with them their views, questions, issues etc. by the time he left, the boos had subsided.
le pen on the other hand, doesn't stay around for discussions at all, poses for a few photos and then legs it off. she's also got a new ridiculous photoshop campaign picture out, trying to look as young as possible. looks hilarious!
 
a spokeperson for JLM's campaign came out and said that a spoiled vote, a vote for macron, and an abstained vote are the same and are normal, but that there should never be a vote for le pen
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“Our friends who want to vote Macron will vote Macron and those who want to vote blank will vote blank. That’s it,” Corbière said. “But nobody should vote FN.”

For clarity, that is what was actually said, I posted it yesterday.
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

He understands that many voters on the left wouldn't be able to bring themselves to vote for Macron, I know I wouldn't. It isn't against the law to spoil a vote, I have done it myself and will , I would hazard a guess, do it more in my lifetime than actually vote. Everybody knows that Le Pen won't win, why endorse the other ****? Why would her defeat have anything to do with JLM's behaviour? You are going off on tangents, if Macron manages to f**k this position up it says more about him.
Incidentally, do you think he would come out and endorse JLM if the roles were reversed?

I completely disagree, there is no point in having principles if you don't have an ideology, that is the main problem with modern politics; nobody has either. I believe the two are directly connected.
By the way, JLM is just leftwing and not 'far-left'. That is the problem with the current Overton window, anybody who even mentions applying basic tenets of democratic socialism is called out as some sort of radical Trotskyite. I wish a Trotskyite could get near to 20% in an election in Britain or France! 
To think Le Pen complains when she is called a fascist! Everyone on the left is constantly mislabelled in an attempt to undermine, which reminds me,I better go read the headlines.

 He is very much far left. I have been reading his policies, commendations, and links, and to claim he is simply left-wing is not true. He actually makes Corbyn look like a left wing Lib-Dem, and Sanders look 'establishment' Democrats. His policies are a mixture of boiler plate socialism, horseshoe isolationism, and in some cases edge towards communism.

On the other point, I never claimed it was illegal to spoil a vote or abstain. But I have maintained that it is irresponsible when Le Pen is involved. Yes, the statement you have quoted has been made, but that ignores the consultation process that Melenchon has started, which may well result in him advising 19% of first round voters to spoil and abstain, and in a tight contest could be a very dangerous game to play. Its the consultation process that has bugged me, as opposed to the statement. The statement would have been fine, and totally sufficient.
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Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

He understands that many voters on the left wouldn't be able to bring themselves to vote for Macron, I know I wouldn't. It isn't against the law to spoil a vote, I have done it myself and will , I would hazard a guess, do it more in my lifetime than actually vote. Everybody knows that Le Pen won't win, why endorse the other ****? Why would her defeat have anything to do with JLM's behaviour? You are going off on tangents, if Macron manages to f**k this position up it says more about him.
Incidentally, do you think he would come out and endorse JLM if the roles were reversed?

I completely disagree, there is no point in having principles if you don't have an ideology, that is the main problem with modern politics; nobody has either. I believe the two are directly connected.
By the way, JLM is just leftwing and not 'far-left'. That is the problem with the current Overton window, anybody who even mentions applying basic tenets of democratic socialism is called out as some sort of radical Trotskyite. I wish a Trotskyite could get near to 20% in an election in Britain or France! 
To think Le Pen complains when she is called a fascist! Everyone on the left is constantly mislabelled in an attempt to undermine, which reminds me,I better go read the headlines.

 He is very much far left. I have been reading his policies, commendations, and links, and to claim he is simply left-wing is not true. He actually makes Corbyn look like a left wing Lib-Dem, and Sanders look 'establishment' Democrats. His policies are a mixture of boiler plate socialism, horseshoe isolationism, and in some cases edge towards communism.

On the other point, I never claimed it was illegal to spoil a vote or abstain. But I have maintained that it is irresponsible when Le Pen is involved. Yes, the statement you have quoted has been made, but that ignores the consultation process that Melenchon has started, which may well result in him advising 19% of first round voters to spoil and abstain, and in a tight contest could be a very dangerous game to play. Its the consultation process that has bugged me, as opposed to the statement. The statement would have been fine, and totally sufficient.
Agree.  I dread to think how far left someone has to be to consider JLM "just leftwing".
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Well he is very much to the right of me, I would consider him an old school socialist, aka, left-wing. Anything that isn't market capitalism of the laissez-faire variety is seen as 'loony left', 'far left' and, my personal favourite, 'hard left'.
Arguing over a consultation process is even beyond my levels of pedantry.
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PM, its not pedantry, considering the stakes. Like I have argued, a statement against Le Pen would have been sufficient, rather than taking action which may potentially give rise to advising 19% of the electorate to spoil/abstain.

And as far as i'm concerned, when 100% tax rates on certain types of income are being discussed, that is irrefutably far left.
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Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

PM, its not pedantry, considering the stakes. Like I have argued, a statement against Le Pen would have been sufficient, rather than taking action which may potentially give rise to advising 19% of the electorate to spoil/abstain.

And as far as i'm concerned, when 100% tax rates on certain types of income are being discussed, that is irrefutably far left.
So FDR was 'far' left?On this very day in 1942 he asked Congress to ratify the proposal that no American citizen ought to have a net income above $25k.Benjamin Netanyahu brought in a salary cap for bankers, is he 'far' left? The Democratic Mayor of Portland Oregon wants to put a surtax on companies whose bosses earn outside the 100:1 ratio, is he 'far' left? Sanders, who you admitted yourself is not 'far' left, advocates a 100% tax on earnings above $450k. Cameron brought one in, albeit only for civil servants, not those helping him become even richer down the city, is he 'far' left. And people say fascism is thrown about too lightly!
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

So FDR was 'far' left?On this very day in 1942 he asked Congress to ratify the proposal that no American citizen ought to have a net income above $25k.Benjamin Netanyahu brought in a salary cap for bankers, is he 'far' left? The Democratic Mayor of Portland Oregon wants to put a surtax on companies whose bosses earn outside the 100:1 ratio, is he 'far' left? Sanders, who you admitted yourself is not 'far' left, advocates a 100% tax on earnings above $450k. Cameron brought one in, albeit only for civil servants, not those helping him become even richer down the city, is he 'far' left. And people say fascism is thrown about too lightly!
\\

Yep. Thats a far left policy. 
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