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Russian Invasion of Ukraine

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Liam Brady
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B6 6HE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2023 at 9:30am
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Ended up watching a Late Late Show interview from 2005/2006 with George Galloway. He has little difficulty handling Eamonn Delaney in debate over Iraq, but its the comments he makes in the interview that are interesting. He vehemently criticises invasion of other countries, and decrying Irish people who would cheerlead invasion, and compared the West in Iraq to previous invaders. He asked the rhetorical question, 'why do you concentrate on the small tyrant, rather than the big tyrant?'

To me, this just hammers home the mental gymnastics necessary to conclude that America is the big tyrant here, when the invaded nobody. The big tyrant in this situation is Russia. But that doesn't suit their world view, so they need to rope in NATO (and then the USA) to avoid making the uncomfortable conclusion (in their eyes), that the counterweight they prefer (in a relative sense), is the big tyrant. And funny enough, many of the usual suspect have little difficulty criticising Zelensky, corruption in Ukraine etc. So they also focus on the 'small tyrant (as they see it)'. Last year some of these people would give mealy mouthed condemnations of Putin, many of them won't even do that anymore.

A small demonstration took place under the Spire in Dublin a few weeks ago. The criticisms were of NATO, Zelensky, America, Ireland, and Britain, with cheap applause available for anybody who bellowed 'Free Assange'. But noticeable, was the virtual absence of criticism of Russia, Russian Imperialism, Putin, Lavrov, or any of the fellow travellers. By shifting the goalposts sufficiently, they create a war between the USA and Russia, which doest exist. And of course, they just default to the old trope 'America is bad.' Its their warped moral justification for Russian invasion of a sovereign state. Its a comfortable refuge for the ideologue and the simpleton.

With hindsight, do you think that the reports of Ukraines victories over Russia were overplayed so that it would help Bidens mid term elections thereby justifying American military aid?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2023 at 9:35am
Originally posted by B6 6HE B6 6HE wrote:


With hindsight, do you think that the reports of Ukraines victories over Russia were overplayed so that it would help Bidens mid term elections thereby justifying American military aid?




Doubt it. Russia overestimated their own capacities, and underestimated Ukranian capacities. Even without success, there is a very strong argument for aid in order to restore the borders.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eireland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2023 at 1:01pm

Gerk here's a little video from a Ukrainian point of view. The Russians are horrible ****s and have been using the good old tried and tested British tactic of divide and conquer. They are the last modern day colonial European power and the sooner they're defeated in Ukraine the better for everyone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2023 at 2:01pm
Thanks for the share, and interesting video. Not enough is done to understand how these 'republics' came to be, and why they are all part of a Russian narrative.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colemanY2K Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2023 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by B6 6HE B6 6HE wrote:


The level of denial is amazing. 

There is no way that Ukraine can achieve a military victory. 

And yet the West insists on UA fighting on until the last Ukrainian.

Look at the analysis from 6 months ago....Russian were supposed to be collapsing!! It was all a lie.



if they had been given atacms the war would have ended last year. 

the issue is that the west is sh*t scared of russia losing the war. russia losing would result in a major crisis in the country with a real risk of disintegration. not a brilliant scenario for anyone given the size of their nuclear arsenal. 

however the continuation of the war is a real headache as well. giving the ukrainians everything except ranged weapons will prolong the war causing intolerable stress economically and geopolitically worldwide. 

we are in a bind. how to resolve this without causing massive geopolitical fallout is the 100 million dollar question.


Edited by colemanY2K - 10 Mar 2023 at 2:07pm
"One of the dominant facts in English life during the past three quarters of a century has been the decay of ability in the ruling class." Orwell, 1942.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The GerK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2023 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by eireland eireland wrote:


Gerk here's a little video from a Ukrainian point of view. The Russians are horrible ****s and have been using the good old tried and tested British tactic of divide and conquer. They are the last modern day colonial European power and the sooner they're defeated in Ukraine the better for everyone.


Will try watch at some stage but you make it out that I think Russia are the good guys. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irish_major Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2023 at 10:35pm
Originally posted by The GerK The GerK wrote:

Originally posted by eireland eireland wrote:


Gerk here's a little video from a Ukrainian point of view. The Russians are horrible ****s and have been using the good old tried and tested British tactic of divide and conquer. They are the last modern day colonial European power and the sooner they're defeated in Ukraine the better for everyone.


Will try watch at some stage but you make it out that I think Russia are the good guys. 

Can't watch a video that might contradict you but you've time to go down rabbit holes about nonsense conspiracy theories.

You do think Russia are the good guys
Here we go again
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabbsBalls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2023 at 10:40pm
Cancel him, Major Uncle Tom.
l hear you are a racist now, father ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sham157 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2023 at 1:47am
Originally posted by BabbsBalls BabbsBalls wrote:

Cancel him, Major Uncle Tom.
Yeah like Lineker
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eireland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2023 at 11:07am
Originally posted by colemanY2K colemanY2K wrote:

Originally posted by B6 6HE B6 6HE wrote:


The level of denial is amazing. 

There is no way that Ukraine can achieve a military victory. 

And yet the West insists on UA fighting on until the last Ukrainian.

Look at the analysis from 6 months ago....Russian were supposed to be collapsing!! It was all a lie.



if they had been given atacms the war would have ended last year. 

the issue is that the west is sh*t scared of russia losing the war. russia losing would result in a major crisis in the country with a real risk of disintegration. not a brilliant scenario for anyone given the size of their nuclear arsenal. 

however the continuation of the war is a real headache as well. giving the ukrainians everything except ranged weapons will prolong the war causing intolerable stress economically and geopolitically worldwide. 

we are in a bind. how to resolve this without causing massive geopolitical fallout is the 100 million dollar question.
ATACMS at the very least would force key Russian logistic hubs to set up further away from the frontline and that's never good for logistics. Hopefully Ukraine can get their homemade long range drones in order to force Russia bomber planes to relocate further from the front.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The GerK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2023 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by irish_major irish_major wrote:

Originally posted by The GerK The GerK wrote:

Originally posted by eireland eireland wrote:


Gerk here's a little video from a Ukrainian point of view. The Russians are horrible ****s and have been using the good old tried and tested British tactic of divide and conquer. They are the last modern day colonial European power and the sooner they're defeated in Ukraine the better for everyone.


Will try watch at some stage but you make it out that I think Russia are the good guys. 

Can't watch a video that might contradict you but you've time to go down rabbit holes about nonsense conspiracy theories.

You do think Russia are the good guys

Oh, you are one of these guys that thinks he can tell what other people think.

Can't watch a video that might contradict you. 
Coming from someone who literally cancelled his mates for having a different opinion LOL 

I watched the video. Sorry for not doing so earlier but I was knee deep in guinness all weekend.
It reinforces my opinion that Russia are animals and have always been animals. Nothing new there.

But it does nothing to address US involvement in Ukraine.
Who blew up Nord Stream 2?

This is what's wrong with debate these days. All one sided. Question the Yanks and you are branded a Putin puppet. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2023 at 7:01pm
Originally posted by The GerK The GerK wrote:


This is what's wrong with debate these days. All one sided. 


In fact, I'd argue that we live in a particularly liberal debating space, thanks to social media etc. So liberal in fact that dangerous, and ridiculous ideas are getting traction that they simply dont deserve. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cabra Hoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2023 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by The GerK The GerK wrote:


This is what's wrong with debate these days. All one sided. 


In fact, I'd argue that we live in a particularly liberal debating space, thanks to social media etc. So liberal in fact that dangerous, and ridiculous ideas are getting traction that they simply dont deserve. 
You are correct that social media has made debate more accessible to all and more views can be expressed, the irony is that if a person's point doesn't not agree with the Liberal group think or is even remotely perceived as a challenge to Liberal agenda that person is pilloried as a hard right, hard left,  conspiracy nut job. 
" BFC always gives me a laugh........ "
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2023 at 8:10pm
Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

 You are correct that social media has made debate more accessible to all and more views can be expressed, the irony is that if a person's point doesn't not agree with the Liberal group think or is even remotely perceived as a challenge to Liberal agenda that person is pilloried as a hard right, hard left,  conspiracy nut job. 

Serious question, what is the 'liberal agenda?'


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cabra Hoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2023 at 8:12pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

 You are correct that social media has made debate more accessible to all and more views can be expressed, the irony is that if a person's point doesn't not agree with the Liberal group think or is even remotely perceived as a challenge to Liberal agenda that person is pilloried as a hard right, hard left,  conspiracy nut job. 

Serious question, what is the 'liberal agenda?'


You're better than that...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2023 at 8:16pm
Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:



You're better than that...[/QUOTE]

Honestly, I think the 'liberal agenda' is too broad to define, and as a rule is had to pin down, simply because some liberal will believe in free markets and free people, while others believe that the only way people can be free is if there is a degree of market intervention through popular government. Its a broad church between what a right leaning liberal would consider as liberal and what a left leaning liberal would see as liberalism.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The GerK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2023 at 8:20pm
Originally posted by Cabra Hoop Cabra Hoop wrote:

Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by The GerK The GerK wrote:


This is what's wrong with debate these days. All one sided. 


In fact, I'd argue that we live in a particularly liberal debating space, thanks to social media etc. So liberal in fact that dangerous, and ridiculous ideas are getting traction that they simply dont deserve. 
You are correct that social media has made debate more accessible to all and more views can be expressed, the irony is that if a person's point doesn't not agree with the Liberal group think or is even remotely perceived as a challenge to Liberal agenda that person is pilloried as a hard right, hard left,  conspiracy nut job. 

This is true on both sides,  left and right. 
Hence my point. No nuance. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote planning Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2023 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

It’s interesting to see the likes of John McDonnell pointing out that assisting Ukraine is now necessary. The remaining ‘peace and neutrality -mongers’ are really being shown up as being ideological shills hiding behind a fig-leaf of ‘peace and neutrality’, while happily trotting out the tired tropes of Russia ‘intervening’ on behalf of ethnic minorities non-existent provocation, and the usual cries of conspiracy about the Western media, NATO, and the USA. It’s extremely transparent, most notably because it’s the same individuals, treading the same path, with the same narrative.

I would like to know if some of the fig leaf ‘peaceniks’ would agree with negotiated settlements, and ‘imperfect peace’ in other ongoing conflicts, and in recent conflicts around the world.

The truth is peace is the most desirable outcome. Everybody knows that, but how peace is achieved becomes more complicated when one nation aggressively invades another.

Negotiating peace with Putin? 2 peace agreements have already been negotiated with him. He never observed them, and ripped them up last year. 

So you can't negotiate with his regime. Even if you could, what do you do about Wagner, or Belarus? Do you include them or ignore them? Ignore them and they're not bound by the agreement. Include them and negotiations become even more difficult. It's not just a straight forward Ukraine v Russia military battlefield these days. The UN are unable to help because Russia just automatically blocks any efforts to reign them in. I don't know how practical sending in peacekeepers would be, or have a Kosovo style settlement, but neither side is prepared to budge an inch on their demands and until someone is, then the conflict will just drag on and on and on. 

And I still laugh at the "we stand with Ukraine" propaganda. No they don't. Ukraine wants to join the EU? No you can't. Ukraine wants to join NATO? No you can't. Ukrainians courageous enough to move to Ireland rather than stay in places such as Poland? No you can't. Go away, there's no room at the inn. This is official government policy, stated on the DFA website, or words to that effect. But the politicians everywhere tell them that they're with them as long as it takes, when the reality is that they'll dump them when they don't want to stand by them any longer.
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