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Russian Invasion of Ukraine

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Ray Houghton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eireland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2023 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by Deane Deane wrote:

Originally posted by irish_major irish_major wrote:

If there's about to be a negotiation what does Putin actually want? 

Scary to think this is the 'cleanest' end to the war. The fact that it's been drawn out so long surely has damaged the Russian military on the plus side.

Nato to stop expanding to its border might help.

Clown take. 

Anybody can voluntarily join a defensive alliance. Especially if your countries sovereignty is directly threatened by an unfriendly neighbour.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MayoMark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2023 at 10:42pm
Lukashenko in serious bother it would seem 
They finally did it man... They killed my f**kin' car...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Deane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2023 at 9:12am
Originally posted by eireland eireland wrote:

Originally posted by Deane Deane wrote:

Originally posted by irish_major irish_major wrote:

If there's about to be a negotiation what does Putin actually want? 

Scary to think this is the 'cleanest' end to the war. The fact that it's been drawn out so long surely has damaged the Russian military on the plus side.

Nato to stop expanding to its border might help.

Clown take. 

Anybody can voluntarily join a defensive alliance. Especially if your countries sovereignty is directly threatened by an unfriendly neighbour.

It isn't my "take". 

The question was asked, "what does Putin actually want?" 

I believe this is what he wants based on what I have read. I even shared an article by an academic that suggests that.

I never said countries shouldn't join NATO or have the right to if they so choose, but please continue to read between the lines and create your own narratives. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2023 at 9:59am
Originally posted by Deane Deane wrote:


It isn't my "take". 

The question was asked, "what does Putin actually want?" 

I believe this is what he wants based on what I have read. I even shared an article by an academic that suggests that.

I never said countries shouldn't join NATO or have the right to if they so choose, but please continue to read between the lines and create your own narratives. 

But some key facts are missing in the article. Including the fact that the pro-Russian government was responsible for the revolution in 2014 over weakening links to the EU. The police then opened fire on protestors, killing 100 of the them. Around that time, then then pro-Russian President fled to start a new independent republic, and when that didn’t happen fled entirely to Russia. So the ‘Western backed coup’ line doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

But neither does the NATO encroachment argument. Especially, when as a counterweight, Russia has been encroaching on adjacent lands for years. Beyond Crimea, Russia had invaded small pockets of Ukraine before 2008, and lands in adjacent countries. Moldova and Georgia both have ‘separatists’ at play, and they are all very much Russian backed and Russian funded, while Russia plays off regions against each other in a divide and conquer approach.

The provocation argument doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. Not least because, in a political scientific sense it’s to be noted that it was very predictable who, in the public sphere would argue this point, and it is those who believe that America is bad and responsible for every I’ll that happens in the world.
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Ray Houghton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eireland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2023 at 10:49pm
Originally posted by Deane Deane wrote:

Originally posted by eireland eireland wrote:

Originally posted by Deane Deane wrote:

Originally posted by irish_major irish_major wrote:

If there's about to be a negotiation what does Putin actually want? 

Scary to think this is the 'cleanest' end to the war. The fact that it's been drawn out so long surely has damaged the Russian military on the plus side.

Nato to stop expanding to its border might help.

Clown take. 

Anybody can voluntarily join a defensive alliance. Especially if your countries sovereignty is directly threatened by an unfriendly neighbour.

It isn't my "take". 

The question was asked, "what does Putin actually want?" 

I believe this is what he wants based on what I have read. I even shared an article by an academic that suggests that.

I never said countries shouldn't join NATO or have the right to if they so choose, but please continue to read between the lines and create your own narratives. 
Who gives a sh*t what the modern day Hitler wants. The only focus in the West should be giving Ukraine as much help as possible. 


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Ray Houghton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eireland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 2:47pm
Feels like a watershed moment today with the Kherson dam being blown up. I'm not sure this benefits Russia long term so have my doubts if they did it. Water to Crimea will be cut off aswell.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gufct Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 4:21pm
So the Ukraine’s would destroy 80 towns and villages of their own and flood their side of the Dnipro ffs 🙊🙉🙈
One City,One County,One Club GUFC will be back.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The GerK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 12:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bandwagon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 3:44pm

I wouldn't believe a word the US has to say, it was probably them who did it but even if it was Ukraine you can at least see some reasoning behind it.

As for the dam, I fail to see a single thing they could possible gain by doing it themselves. They spent months building up to a counteroffensive they were about to kick off and then the Russian controlled dam is taken out? Why would they slow themselves down? Would it not heavily favour Russia forces to buy some time and regroup in numbers?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Deane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 8:27am
It wouldn't be the first time Ukraine considered blowing up a damn in a counter offensive.





Edited by Deane - 08 Jun 2023 at 8:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The GerK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 8:45am
Originally posted by Bandwagon Bandwagon wrote:

Originally posted by The GerK The GerK wrote:

Look who blew up Nord steam 2






I wouldn't believe a word the US has to say, it was probably them who did it but even if it was Ukraine you can at least see some reasoning behind it.

As for the dam, I fail to see a single thing they could possible gain by doing it themselves. They spent months building up to a counteroffensive they were about to kick off and then the Russian controlled dam is taken out? Why would they slow themselves down? Would it not heavily favour Russia forces to buy some time and regroup in numbers?

I wouldn't believe a word from any of them
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Deane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 8:45am
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by Deane Deane wrote:


It isn't my "take". 

The question was asked, "what does Putin actually want?" 

I believe this is what he wants based on what I have read. I even shared an article by an academic that suggests that.

I never said countries shouldn't join NATO or have the right to if they so choose, but please continue to read between the lines and create your own narratives. 

But some key facts are missing in the article. Including the fact that the pro-Russian government was responsible for the revolution in 2014 over weakening links to the EU. The police then opened fire on protestors, killing 100 of the them. Around that time, then then pro-Russian President fled to start a new independent republic, and when that didn’t happen fled entirely to Russia. So the ‘Western backed coup’ line doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

But neither does the NATO encroachment argument. Especially, when as a counterweight, Russia has been encroaching on adjacent lands for years. Beyond Crimea, Russia had invaded small pockets of Ukraine before 2008, and lands in adjacent countries. Moldova and Georgia both have ‘separatists’ at play, and they are all very much Russian backed and Russian funded, while Russia plays off regions against each other in a divide and conquer approach.

The provocation argument doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. Not least because, in a political scientific sense it’s to be noted that it was very predictable who, in the public sphere would argue this point, and it is those who believe that America is bad and responsible for every I’ll that happens in the world.

This was the reasonably debate I was looking for not the other responses LOL
 
There is no doubt there was a move by Russia last minute to prevent Ukraine creating closer ties with EU and the aftermath was atrocious I agree. There is also no doubt the US took advantage of this situation for their own gain. 

The main issue with NATO encroachment is that there was an agreement that it wouldn't happen. Whatever about the rights of sovereign nations to join. Agreements shouldn't be broken without new agreements and discussions. 

Moldova's separatist state of Transnistria existed from 1990 whilst Moldova only gained independence in 1991 so I am not sure how this could be considered a new thing or a recent move by Russia or indeed Putin as it far predates his leadership. I assume Transnistria due to its political stance does most of its business with Russia which with a little bit of spin can be described as "funding separatists". 

Of course there will be a proportion of the population in countries formerly part of the Russia Empire that would favour the old status-quo. 

Would you describe the Provisional IRA as separatists funded by Libya and the US?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FrankosHereNow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 9:50am
If Latvia was not in NATO, do you think it would have been invaded by Russia by now?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 4:33pm
Originally posted by Deane Deane wrote:


This was the reasonably debate I was looking for not the other responses LOL

I think its the least you're entitled to. I also think that legitimate debate on the conflict is very important. 
 
Originally posted by Deane Deane wrote:

There is no doubt there was a move by Russia last minute to prevent Ukraine creating closer ties with EU and the aftermath was atrocious I agree. There is also no doubt the US took advantage of this situation for their own gain.
 

But the bigger problem is not the US's actions here, or any advantage taken. It is aggressive pro-Russian action, which resulted in a popular uprising and revolution.

Originally posted by Deane Deane wrote:

The main issue with NATO encroachment is that there was an agreement that it wouldn't happen. Whatever about the rights of sovereign nations to join. Agreements shouldn't be broken without new agreements and discussions.
 

But there was no formal agreement. And Russia themselves have been open to NATO in the past. This is an attempt to assert dominance over a regional block, but the Russia, using the alliance as some sort of counterweight. But one formal agreement that has been disregarded is the Budapest Agreement, where Ukraine took non-proliferative action vis-a-vis nuclear weapons, in exchange for a non-aggression pact. Funny how Russia decided to deliberately misinterpret the agreement when they stationed nuclear weapons. Lavrov even claimed there is only one obligation under the agreement, when in fact there are six. He claimed that the only obligation was for Russia not to attack with nuclear weapons. funny how the vatniks in the media seem concerned that without 'peace' (i.e. their preferred type of peace) there may be nuclear warfare. Russia has invented this 'threat' regarding NATO to whip up sentiment. It doesn't make any sense, not least because of how difficult it is to join NATO and decisions in the past regarding Ukraine and NATO.

Originally posted by Deane Deane wrote:

Moldova's separatist state of Transnistria existed from 1990 whilst Moldova only gained independence in 1991 so I am not sure how this could be considered a new thing or a recent move by Russia or indeed Putin as it far predates his leadership. I assume Transnistria due to its political stance does most of its business with Russia which with a little bit of spin can be described as "funding separatists".
 

I dont need to spin it that way. Russia basically pays for Transnistria's existence, which is a fair price as far as they're concerned in order to have a satellite region in an adjacent country. Estimates from 2015 suggested that 70% of Transnistria's budget is from Moscow. It is also seen as heavily reliant on a form of black market. So its less about trade, and more about Russia underwriting its existence.

Originally posted by Deane Deane wrote:

Of course there will be a proportion of the population in countries formerly part of the Russia Empire that would favour the old status-quo.
 

Thats true.

Originally posted by Deane Deane wrote:

Would you describe the Provisional IRA as separatists funded by Libya and the US?
 

No, I wouldn't. Not least because the armed struggle of the IRA is not comparable to what is happening in Russia and Ukraine right now. An analogy would by under a United Ireland, the UK gaslighting unionist populations and regions into believing that they are under existential threat from local nationalists. Under this guise, they would illegally invade, calling it a 'special mission' to protect the gaslight population, demanding independence for the regions in which these populations live. Thereafter, if given independence, the UK exchequer basically underwrites the regions and covers the majority of their budget.



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Ray Houghton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eireland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 7:09pm
I was going to reply to Deane with your point regarding the IRA but wasn't bothered. These Russian sympathisers would make you wonder.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2023 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by eireland eireland wrote:

These Russian sympathisers would make you wonder.

As a general point about Western based vatniks, they are guilty of a pattern of behaviour when it comes to these conflicts. Its as predictable as night follows day. They were guilty of the same type of narrative during the disintegration of Yugoslavia, and before that willingly shilled for Saddam when Iraq illegally invaded Kuwait, which prompted desert storm. You'll also notice how they never consider the conflict in Syria as a 'proxy war', in spite of Russia backing the Assad regime. In fact, their attitudes towards Ukraine is a projection of their view on Syria. The first refuge of the propagandist was to claim that Russia wouldn't invade Ukraine. After that it was to trot out the usual talking points, which explain away the invasion.

Lets be honest, there is nothing more contradictory than a politically focussed twitter account, with a number of flags in the handle namely Palestine, Catalonia, and Kurdistan, and alongside them, the Russian flag. As the old song goes 'one of these things is not like the others.'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MayoMark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2023 at 11:12pm
They finally did it man... They killed my f**kin' car...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2023 at 3:58pm
Miggeldy on collision course with the Government over statements about the Consultative Forum on security policy. I suspect this conflict will indeed be what forces a debate on neutrality.
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