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Should we give up football?

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pre Madonna View Drop Down
Robbie Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 11:29am
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

And your attempt at refuting my reasons for said chip have been non-existent. Tangents about racist LOI fans, drug dealers and now to just say things like the above, which I would again compare to the pigeon playing chess.

This cult-like devotion is exactly the problem.

Your reasons essentially boil down to the spurious argument that the GAA is a cancer promoting "dangerous ethno-nationalism". The irony of this argument is that you spend a large proportion of your day posting on a forum devoted to the IRISH INTERNATIONAL football team. International football is unambiguously ethno-nationalist, and there is a far more fervent nationalist undertone to games such as Ireland vs England; France vs Germany; Poland vs Russia; etc etc than there is to any aspect of the GAA as an organisation. So unless you are willing to concede that international football is in fact a far larger engine of ethno-nationalist sentiment than the GAA could ever be, it is clear that your argument is grounded in nothing other than your own bitter biases.
I would suggest you look up the term again. International football is internationalist in outlook, who would have thought,  and I doubt multicultural sides like France, Germany and ourselves would have much truck with ethno-nationalism. One of the greatest things about France's modern football triumphs has been how much it has annoyed their ethno-nationalists in the FN, or whatever they have rebounded as this week.

Harping on about 'true Gaels' clearly implies ethno-nationalism. The vocal minority making people of other religious backgrounds unwelcome or uncomfortable being tolerated, far more than in any other sport on the island, is ethno-nationalism. The considerable links between the organisation and the dominant Church is, well, you get the picture.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 11:38am
That is honestly a pathetic rationalisation. You do realise that there are numerous fixtures that literally are not allowed to happen in international football? But yeah, it's all about brotherly love between nations LOL

Who in the GAA has given a damn about religion for the past 30+ years? The football Championship is named after a Protestant, Antrim's stadium in the heart of Belfast is named after an Englishman, 2 of Monaghans most prominent footballers of the past decade are Protestants from a border town; as I've already alluded to, a club was recently set up in East Belfast; etc etc. Just face it, you are choosing to wallow in the past because the present GAA doesn't even vaguely resemble your monstrous view of it. It's pathetic, it's sad, and it shows you up for the poisonous little man you are.


Edited by The O'Shea - 08 Sep 2020 at 11:39am
We're decent enough..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberto Baggio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 11:45am
Why does the term "true gael" annoy you so much?
Would it annoy you if a commentator said Richard Dunne was a true Irishman after his performance in Moscow, or Bobby Moore a true West Ham man, or Paul McStay a true Celtic man?
 
Its a similar turn of phrase or term of endearment. Don't take it to heart


Edited by Roberto Baggio - 08 Sep 2020 at 11:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 11:46am
It's ironic that rugby is demonised on here because it doesn't play Amhran na bhFiann outside of matches at Lansdowne Road

That's actual ethno-nationalism in action


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 11:54am
Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Why does the term "true gael" annoy you so much?
Would it annoy you if a commentator said Richard Dunne was a true Irishman after his performance in Moscow, or Bobby Moore a true West Ham man, or Paul McStay a true Celtic man?
 
Its a similar turn of phrase or term of endearment. Don't take it to heart

Perhaps he is insecure that he can't live up to the billing himself. As you say, for anyone with a normal personality it's a turn of phrase they'd hardly pay any notice to, it doesn't really mean much.
We're decent enough..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

That is honestly a pathetic rationalisation. You do realise that there are numerous fixtures that literally are not allowed to happen in international football? But yeah, it's all about brotherly love between nations LOL

Who in the GAA has given a damn about religion for the past 30+ years? The football Championship is named after a Protestant, Antrim's stadium in the heart of Belfast is named after an Englishman, 2 of Monaghans most prominent footballers of the past decade are Protestants from a border town; as I've already alluded to, a club was recently set up in East Belfast; etc etc. Just face it, you are choosing to wallow in the past because the present GAA doesn't even vaguely resemble your monstrous view of it. It's pathetic, it's sad, and it shows you up for the poisonous little man you are.
Yes, but what that has to do with anything is completely illogical. You erroneously used the term ethno-nationalism and now have to double down. Yes, countries have difficult histories and there is unquestionably difficulties with nationalism in a lot of supports, but rarely ethno-nationalism and certainly not in the sport as a whole, for all of FIFA's many faults, as it would go against its very purpose.

The problem is, as I have to keep repeating, is that old Tommy of the comm-meat-tea cares about religion in the GAA and his views are still tolerated in a way they are not elsewhere. That's the problem. The fact that people feel the need to mention that there are a whole two Protestant  Gaelic footballers shows that people do still care about religion. 
The fact that people don't want to accept this is why I see the GAA as a regressive organisation in Irish society. If people want to pretend it is fine, that's ok.  Enjoy it. 
  
I have managed to avoid such blatantly petty insults when replying to you. I can accept why you might refuse to accept any fault in d'association, but such pettiness only confirms the pigeons and chess analogy. Everyone knows there is more than a kernel of truth in what I am saying,  but nobody with a grá for the cult has the decency to admit it.


Edited by pre Madonna - 08 Sep 2020 at 1:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Why does the term "true gael" annoy you so much?
Would it annoy you if a commentator said Richard Dunne was a true Irishman after his performance in Moscow, or Bobby Moore a true West Ham man, or Paul McStay a true Celtic man?
 
Its a similar turn of phrase or term of endearment. Don't take it to heart
It doesn't annoy me, I just think the language we use is important and that is openly nativist. That isn't healthy from a sporting organisation with a wide ranging influence. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 1:14pm
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

It's ironic that rugby is demonised on here because it doesn't play Amhran na bhFiann outside of matches at Lansdowne Road

That's actual ethno-nationalism in action


I don't think national anthems should be played before a sporting event. It's unnecessary. I don't see how this is really relevant, more another deflection. 


Edited by pre Madonna - 08 Sep 2020 at 1:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 1:20pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Why does the term "true gael" annoy you so much?
Would it annoy you if a commentator said Richard Dunne was a true Irishman after his performance in Moscow, or Bobby Moore a true West Ham man, or Paul McStay a true Celtic man?
 
Its a similar turn of phrase or term of endearment. Don't take it to heart
It doesn't annoy me, I just think the language we use is important and that is openly nativist. That isn't healthy from a sporting organisation with a wide ranging influence. 

Do you hate the Gaelic heritage of your country so much that you feel the need to rebel against every mention of it? You talk about the old Irish bigots who hate all things non-Gaelic, but you seem to be on the opposite end of the spectrum, turning your nose up to all things that are Gaelic. Someone being proud of Gaelic culture is no more bigoted than someone being proud of Norse culture, Latin culture, etc. So what exactly is your issue with "Gaels" specifically? "Irish nationalism" and Gaelicism are actually incredibly limited in scope compared to most varieties, it doesn't present itself as being some sort of master culture that should rightfully conquer all others, it simply focuses on itself.
We're decent enough..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Why does the term "true gael" annoy you so much?
Would it annoy you if a commentator said Richard Dunne was a true Irishman after his performance in Moscow, or Bobby Moore a true West Ham man, or Paul McStay a true Celtic man?
 
Its a similar turn of phrase or term of endearment. Don't take it to heart
It doesn't annoy me, I just think the language we use is important and that is openly nativist. That isn't healthy from a sporting organisation with a wide ranging influence. 

Do you hate the Gaelic heritage of your country so much that you feel the need to rebel against every mention of it? You talk about the old Irish bigots who hate all things non-Gaelic, but you seem to be on the opposite end of the spectrum, turning your nose up to all things that are Gaelic. Someone being proud of Gaelic culture is no more bigoted than someone being proud of Norse culture, Latin culture, etc. So what exactly is your issue with "Gaels" specifically? "Irish nationalism" and Gaelicism are actually incredibly limited in scope compared to most varieties, it doesn't present itself as being some sort of master culture that should rightfully conquer all others, it simply focuses on itself.
Again, you have gone off on a rabid rant when I have never said anything of the sort. I'm quite proud of Irish heritage and culture and am currently in the process of finding Irish language lessons nearby.
I do have a problem with the nativist implications of the term 'true Gaels'. You can disagree with it, but it has a similar bang of ethno-nationalism that you get off terms like Saxon over here. You can be proud of your culture and heritage without being exclusive about it. I have little problem with the word 'Gaels', albeit it feels unnecessary, but the added adjective makes it menacing and that this is 'our thing', not yours and that you can't be a 'true Gael' or Irishman unless you join our organisation. 


Edited by pre Madonna - 08 Sep 2020 at 1:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

That is honestly a pathetic rationalisation. You do realise that there are numerous fixtures that literally are not allowed to happen in international football? But yeah, it's all about brotherly love between nations LOL

Who in the GAA has given a damn about religion for the past 30+ years? The football Championship is named after a Protestant, Antrim's stadium in the heart of Belfast is named after an Englishman, 2 of Monaghans most prominent footballers of the past decade are Protestants from a border town; as I've already alluded to, a club was recently set up in East Belfast; etc etc. Just face it, you are choosing to wallow in the past because the present GAA doesn't even vaguely resemble your monstrous view of it. It's pathetic, it's sad, and it shows you up for the poisonous little man you are.
Yes, but what that has to do with anything is completely illogical. You erroneously used the term ethno-nationalism and now have to double down. Yes, countries have difficult histories and there is unquestionably difficulties with nationalism in a lot of supports, but rarely ethno-nationalism and certainly not in the sport as a whole, for all of FIFA's many faults, as it would go against its very purpose.

The problem is, as I have to keep repeating, is that old Tommy of the comm-meat-tea cares about religion in the GAA and his views are still tolerated in a way they are not elsewhere. That's the problem. The fact that people feel the need to mention that there are a whole two Protestant  Gaelic footballers shows that people do still care about religion. 
The fact that people don't want to accept this is why I see the GAA as a regressive organisation in Irish society. If people want to pretend it is fine, that's ok.  Enjoy it. 
  
I have managed to avoid such blatantly petty insults when replying to you. I can accept why you might refuse to accept any fault in d'association, but such pettiness only confirms the pigeons and chess analogy. Everyone knows there is more than a kernel of truth in what I am saying,  but nobody with a grá for the cult has the decency to admit it.
It's mad the way you''e created this straw man and decided to argue purely against it 

The GAA is the most internal conflict-driven organisation you'll find 

The chip gets ever heavier

I think I'll do up a "soccer is a regressive influence" on Irish society thesis just for the craic and to wind you up




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 1:28pm
Why on earth would that wind me up?LOL I have heard it most of my life anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The O'Shea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by The O'Shea The O'Shea wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Why does the term "true gael" annoy you so much?
Would it annoy you if a commentator said Richard Dunne was a true Irishman after his performance in Moscow, or Bobby Moore a true West Ham man, or Paul McStay a true Celtic man?
 
Its a similar turn of phrase or term of endearment. Don't take it to heart
It doesn't annoy me, I just think the language we use is important and that is openly nativist. That isn't healthy from a sporting organisation with a wide ranging influence. 

Do you hate the Gaelic heritage of your country so much that you feel the need to rebel against every mention of it? You talk about the old Irish bigots who hate all things non-Gaelic, but you seem to be on the opposite end of the spectrum, turning your nose up to all things that are Gaelic. Someone being proud of Gaelic culture is no more bigoted than someone being proud of Norse culture, Latin culture, etc. So what exactly is your issue with "Gaels" specifically? "Irish nationalism" and Gaelicism are actually incredibly limited in scope compared to most varieties, it doesn't present itself as being some sort of master culture that should rightfully conquer all others, it simply focuses on itself.
Again, you have gone off on a rabid rant went I have never said anything of the sort. I'm quite proud of Irish heritage and culture and am currently in the process of finding Irish language lessons nearby.
I do have a problem with the nativist implications of the term 'true Gaels'. You can disagree with it, but it has a similar bang of ethno-nationalism that you get off terms like Saxon over here. You can be proud of your culture and heritage without being exclusive about it.

Which "true Gaels" are exclusive about it? Certainly there is anti-English sentiment in many sections of Irish society (which has a fairly understandable historical basis), however, what other cultures really get up these "true Gaels" noses? There has actually been incredibly little backlash against new cultures in Ireland that is buttressed in a "pure Gaelic society" narrative. O'Doherty and her band of loonies are about the only ones I can think of who have attempted it, and I wouldn't exactly say its bought them much success. Compare this situation to England, Germany, France, the Nethetlands etc where there truly are strong movements based on nativist sentiment, and Gaelicism looks almost completely lacking in this kind of radicalisation.
We're decent enough..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 1:42pm
Really? Again, I would have had a very different experience of that in West Cork. Maybe I have been dreadfully unlucky. Having lived in Ireland, England and France for reasonable lengths of time, I would say the nativist sentiment is stronger in Ireland. Sure, there is stronger movements in England and France, but a lot of that is that the number of foreigners in Ireland is quite small and, very importantly, the counter movement of good people has been quite strong.
But in France I was never once told to go back home, something my French stepfather, the ****, was told regularly. Indeed, even when I have been on the end of racist barbs over here, and never in my five years in this town, it was never even suggested. I regularly heard Irish friends who had been born in England receive such barbs and so forth.
It was even more prevalent when a local guesthouse was used to provide asylum for people from war torn areas all over the world seeking refuge; there seemed to me to be a large correlation between those who would  have considered themselves 'true Gaels', although I don't think the term was en vogue at the time, and those telling them to go home.


Edited by pre Madonna - 08 Sep 2020 at 2:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 1:44pm
Sacar is a regressive influence on Irish society

Sacar hates Ireland - it ridicules anything to do with Irish culture, and let's face it, sacar fans would prefer if Ireland was still part of the UK

Sacar is inherently imperialist and colonialist

Sacar makes little contribution to the community 

Sacar has a racism problem

Sacar doesn't care about women's participation

Sacar administrators don't care about the game, they only care about money

Sacar is a haven for institutional incompetence

Sacar is a haven for corruption

Sacar in Ireland has links to organised crime

Sacar is a magnet for boozed up event junkies puking and urinating in the streets - "the so called best fans in the wuddled"

Sacar spreads sectarian hatred

Sacar spreads hooliganism and anti-social behaviour

Sacar is partitionist

Sacar in Ireland has failed to provide a serious outlet for its best players to play

Sacar is a business rather a sporting organisation

Sacar blames everybody else for its troubles

Sacar is ethno-nationalist, it surrounds itself with nationalist paraphernalia like national flags










Edited by sid waddell - 08 Sep 2020 at 1:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 1:46pm
Nationalism, as well you know, is a different beast from ethno-nationalism. The rest I have all heard before, usually with more venom. There is anquestionable truth to some of it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 2:00pm
https://www.the42.ie/irish-soccer-racism-5116554-Jun2020/

I don't ever recall organised monkey chants at a black player by followers of a GAA team

The FAI bans players guilty of racism for a measly five games

In the GAA you get a minimum eight-week suspension and the GAA can ban such people for life 

The match at Windsor Park on November 17th, 1993 was the most ethno-nationalist sporting event ever staged on this island


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pre Madonna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 2:17pm
Wouldn't eight weeks be less than five games? Certainly less than five important ones, albeit that isn't the point. 

I'm not sure if that post was aimed at me or the debate? I am very accepting of all of football's problems. It would be great if other sports were as accepting, but then this thread would have stopped a good few pages ago and I am hoping to knock a few more out of it.

Yeah, that day in '93, as memorable as it was, was a very dark day for the island, for sport and particularly for football.
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