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pre Madonna 
Robbie Keane
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 Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 1:03am |
 The O'Shea wrote:
sid waddell wrote:
pre Madonna wrote:
I don't know why you quoted me there Sid as you seemed to completely ignore most of what I raised.
The GAA will obviously be to the forefront of any such anti-racism initiatives or similar, sure Manchester City have a woman's team! It is lip-service and does nothing to change the real and dangerous culture that those small minorities up and down the country.
I don't sl*g anyone for following English football, but I see being a sports fan, particularly a football fan, being local, familial or cultural. What is weird is when the local comm-meat-tea members openly mock LOI fans in the same pub they will be shouting for 'Man Yoo' in on the Sunday. That these lads will go out of their way to disrupt under 12 rugby training and go on a jolly to France to watch Munster.
Those are the real culture wars. The ban might be long gone, but the mentality hasn't and thatsthe issue.
As I said, like any organisation with a such a strong devotion people would rather project the issues back on the critics than accept the criticism and that is the problem. In an obviously much milder way, it is exactly how their good friends in the Church got away with such evil acts. Deflection. 'Look at our charity work', said the priest on the pulpit after he had destroyed children's lives and the Bishop covered it up.
As an aside, I always thought that the Derry City support was very separate from the GAA support and there was an urban/rural divide, similar to in Sligo. Incidentally, I would say Sligo have the biggest, certainly per capita, most loyal and consistent support in the LOI. |
Lip service my hole
Look at Ballyhaunis where the GAA club have made massive efforts to reach out to the local Muslim population and have been very successful in doing so, producing a Mayo under-21 All-Ireland winner
Jason Sherlock and Sean Og O'hAilpin are two of the most popular players ever to play for their counties, both are loved
I've attended League of Ireland matches and heard supporters throwing around casual racist abuse of black players belonging to their own team including the n word, Avery John at Bohs comes to mind
Being a sports fan is whatever you want it to be, it can be local, national, international, individual, there are no rules
Sorry but the "commi-tee" stereotype is your own personal prejudice, yes it still exists in certain parts but is dying out
I could just as easily stereotype junior soccer in Dublin as being drug dealers at play, it would be f**king ridiculous to do that though because it would be branding the overwhelming majority of decent people involved
Associating the GAA with racism and paedophilia in the Catholic Church is mendacious nonsense and the exact sort of bogus culture war sh*te that is a real problem in society now
Racism cuts all across society and the racism that exists within the GAA is most certainly shared by every other sport, association football included
Derry has always been a mainly association football city
Shane Duffy played GAA though, Martin McGuinness's brother also played for Derry, and the Derry team used to get plenty of support there when they were going well
There's always been plenty of crossover between soccer and GAA in Derry as a county, Martin O'Neill. Gerry McElhinney, the Bradleys, Anthony Tohill etc.
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You can add Ballymun Kickhams to that, who have done incredible work in one of the most disadvantaged areas of the country. An even more recent example is the GAA club set up in East Belfast with the explicit aim of bringing the game to people from both sides of the political divide. But lets not ruin PM's fairytale of the bigoted, hyper-nationalist bogeymen running the GAA who's sole aim is to cleanse Ireland of all non-Gaelic influences  |
That isn't what I have ever said, but instead of actually deal with the issues you went first for a personal attack, then to completely ignore what I said until someone more capable had a go at refuting it, before finally chirping in to exaggerate to suit your own argument.
Pigeons and chess.
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The O'Shea
Jack Charlton
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Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 1:12am |
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Yap yap yap PM, we get it, the GAA are institutionally racist and hate filled even though all of the evidence points to the very opposite, that they're actually the most open and progressive minded organisation in the entire country (not that that's saying much).
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sid waddell
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Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 1:13am |
pre Madonna wrote:
sid waddell wrote:
pre Madonna wrote:
I don't know why you quoted me there Sid as you seemed to completely ignore most of what I raised.
The GAA will obviously be to the forefront of any such anti-racism initiatives or similar, sure Manchester City have a woman's team! It is lip-service and does nothing to change the real and dangerous culture that those small minorities up and down the country.
I don't sl*g anyone for following English football, but I see being a sports fan, particularly a football fan, being local, familial or cultural. What is weird is when the local comm-meat-tea members openly mock LOI fans in the same pub they will be shouting for 'Man Yoo' in on the Sunday. That these lads will go out of their way to disrupt under 12 rugby training and go on a jolly to France to watch Munster.
Those are the real culture wars. The ban might be long gone, but the mentality hasn't and thatsthe issue.
As I said, like any organisation with a such a strong devotion people would rather project the issues back on the critics than accept the criticism and that is the problem. In an obviously much milder way, it is exactly how their good friends in the Church got away with such evil acts. Deflection. 'Look at our charity work', said the priest on the pulpit after he had destroyed children's lives and the Bishop covered it up.
As an aside, I always thought that the Derry City support was very separate from the GAA support and there was an urban/rural divide, similar to in Sligo. Incidentally, I would say Sligo have the biggest, certainly per capita, most loyal and consistent support in the LOI. |
Lip service my hole
Look at Ballyhaunis where the GAA club have made massive efforts to reach out to the local Muslim population and have been very successful in doing so, producing a Mayo under-21 All-Ireland winner
Jason Sherlock and Sean Og O'hAilpin are two of the most popular players ever to play for their counties, both are loved
I've attended League of Ireland matches and heard supporters throwing around casual racist abuse of black players belonging to their own team including the n word, Avery John at Bohs comes to mind
Being a sports fan is whatever you want it to be
Sorry but the "commi-tee" stereotype is your own personal prejudice, yes it still exists in certain parts but is dying out
I could just as easily stereotype junior soccer in Dublin as being drug dealers at play, it would be f**king ridiculous to do that though because it would be branding the overwhelming majority of decent people involved
Associating the GAA with racism and paedophilia in the Catholic Church is mendacious nonsense and the exact sort of bogus culture war sh*te that is a real problem in society now
Racism cuts all across society and the racism that exists within the GAA is most certainly shared by every other sport, association football included
Derry has always been a mainly association football city
Shane Duffy played GAA though, Martin McGuinness's brother also played for Derry, and the Derry team used to get plenty of support there when they were going well
There's always been plenty of crossover between soccer and GAA in Derry as a county, Martin O'Neill. Gerry McElhinney, the Bradleys, Anthony Tohill etc.
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Supporters aren't the problem here, that's a different issue. Of course there are supporters of anything who are ****s. I am talking about those commi-tee members. It is great to see that the good people in Ballyhaunis are standing up and winning, I hope many more can do the same, but as long as prominent pundits are writing about 'true Gaels' without being pulled up it will still have a hint of what I could only call ethno-nationalism.
It's funny you mention Sherlock and Séan Óg as I have witnessed both getting racist abuse: one at a football match and the other at a local GAA match he wasn't even playing in, but his brother was and his name was mentioned.
My problem isn't that racism does or doesn't cut across society. We all know that and saying it is irrelevant. What is relevant is that there is a vocal minority on commi-tees across Ireland who are allowed to promote these views, usually silently, that are long since outdated. They may be slowly dying off, but it is the failure of people in the GAA to accept that that's the real issue here.
I also didn't associate the GAA with any such thing, I compared the culture of deflection used by both and not the crimes. I think there are similarities. Similar to the Manchester City fans who took to Twitter to defend Abu Dhabi's actions against Matthew Hedges, a man they would otherwise hardly have heard of. None of the crimes are comparable, but the devoted mentality to defend the indefensible is.
I have to say I would be slightly disappointed and surprised if all Dublin junior football players weren't called Whacker and Damo who sold opiates, but it is good to see them slowly change too. |
I'm not sure of the point you're making and I don't think you are
I think it's that the commi-tee stereotype is a major purveyor of racist abuse in Ireland today
I think that's your imagination
It's beginning to remind me of the Tory witch hunt portraying Labour as uniquely anti-Semitic
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pre Madonna
Robbie Keane
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Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 1:15am |
The O'Shea wrote:
Yap yap yap PM, we get it, the GAA are institutionally racist and hate filled even though all of the evidence points to the very opposite, that they're actually the most open and progressive minded organisation in the entire country (not that that's saying much). |
Again ignoring the points I have made and doing your own 'yap yap yap' without saying anything and assuming superiority.
It would be easy to see you are a GAA man without any mention of it needed.
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Robbie Keane
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Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 1:20am |
sid waddell wrote:
pre Madonna wrote:
sid waddell wrote:
pre Madonna wrote:
I don't know why you quoted me there Sid as you seemed to completely ignore most of what I raised.
The GAA will obviously be to the forefront of any such anti-racism initiatives or similar, sure Manchester City have a woman's team! It is lip-service and does nothing to change the real and dangerous culture that those small minorities up and down the country.
I don't sl*g anyone for following English football, but I see being a sports fan, particularly a football fan, being local, familial or cultural. What is weird is when the local comm-meat-tea members openly mock LOI fans in the same pub they will be shouting for 'Man Yoo' in on the Sunday. That these lads will go out of their way to disrupt under 12 rugby training and go on a jolly to France to watch Munster.
Those are the real culture wars. The ban might be long gone, but the mentality hasn't and thatsthe issue.
As I said, like any organisation with a such a strong devotion people would rather project the issues back on the critics than accept the criticism and that is the problem. In an obviously much milder way, it is exactly how their good friends in the Church got away with such evil acts. Deflection. 'Look at our charity work', said the priest on the pulpit after he had destroyed children's lives and the Bishop covered it up.
As an aside, I always thought that the Derry City support was very separate from the GAA support and there was an urban/rural divide, similar to in Sligo. Incidentally, I would say Sligo have the biggest, certainly per capita, most loyal and consistent support in the LOI. |
Lip service my hole
Look at Ballyhaunis where the GAA club have made massive efforts to reach out to the local Muslim population and have been very successful in doing so, producing a Mayo under-21 All-Ireland winner
Jason Sherlock and Sean Og O'hAilpin are two of the most popular players ever to play for their counties, both are loved
I've attended League of Ireland matches and heard supporters throwing around casual racist abuse of black players belonging to their own team including the n word, Avery John at Bohs comes to mind
Being a sports fan is whatever you want it to be
Sorry but the "commi-tee" stereotype is your own personal prejudice, yes it still exists in certain parts but is dying out
I could just as easily stereotype junior soccer in Dublin as being drug dealers at play, it would be f**king ridiculous to do that though because it would be branding the overwhelming majority of decent people involved
Associating the GAA with racism and paedophilia in the Catholic Church is mendacious nonsense and the exact sort of bogus culture war sh*te that is a real problem in society now
Racism cuts all across society and the racism that exists within the GAA is most certainly shared by every other sport, association football included
Derry has always been a mainly association football city
Shane Duffy played GAA though, Martin McGuinness's brother also played for Derry, and the Derry team used to get plenty of support there when they were going well
There's always been plenty of crossover between soccer and GAA in Derry as a county, Martin O'Neill. Gerry McElhinney, the Bradleys, Anthony Tohill etc.
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Supporters aren't the problem here, that's a different issue. Of course there are supporters of anything who are ****s. I am talking about those commi-tee members. It is great to see that the good people in Ballyhaunis are standing up and winning, I hope many more can do the same, but as long as prominent pundits are writing about 'true Gaels' without being pulled up it will still have a hint of what I could only call ethno-nationalism.
It's funny you mention Sherlock and Séan Óg as I have witnessed both getting racist abuse: one at a football match and the other at a local GAA match he wasn't even playing in, but his brother was and his name was mentioned.
My problem isn't that racism does or doesn't cut across society. We all know that and saying it is irrelevant. What is relevant is that there is a vocal minority on commi-tees across Ireland who are allowed to promote these views, usually silently, that are long since outdated. They may be slowly dying off, but it is the failure of people in the GAA to accept that that's the real issue here.
I also didn't associate the GAA with any such thing, I compared the culture of deflection used by both and not the crimes. I think there are similarities. Similar to the Manchester City fans who took to Twitter to defend Abu Dhabi's actions against Matthew Hedges, a man they would otherwise hardly have heard of. None of the crimes are comparable, but the devoted mentality to defend the indefensible is.
I have to say I would be slightly disappointed and surprised if all Dublin junior football players weren't called Whacker and Damo who sold opiates, but it is good to see them slowly change too. |
I'm not sure of the point you're making and I don't think you are
I think it's that the commi-tee stereotype is a major purveyor of racist abuse in Ireland today
I think that's your imagination
It's beginning to remind me of the Tory witch hunt portraying Labour as uniquely anti-Semitic |
You were sure of it all along while you went off on tangents about Ballyhaunis and lads getting racially abused on the LOI, when I try and bring you back to it you pretend you don't understand it.
There's an air of dangerous ethno-nationalism and cultural superiority that resides within the GAA and is pushed to the forefront by those stereotypes, who may well be dying out, but are still a significant part of the organisation. People seem to want to ignore it or tell me they are making it up, but responses from people on here and off here, and my own personal experiences mean I know that this is true.
You also know it is true, but rather than accept any fault in d'association you feel to deflect away from it rather than face it head on. It is, ironically, quite Trump like.
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The O'Shea
Jack Charlton
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Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 1:31am |
pre Madonna wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
Yap yap yap PM, we get it, the GAA are institutionally racist and hate filled even though all of the evidence points to the very opposite, that they're actually the most open and progressive minded organisation in the entire country (not that that's saying much). |
Again ignoring the points I have made and doing your own 'yap yap yap' without saying anything and assuming superiority.
It would be easy to see you are a GAA man without any mention of it needed. |
There you go with your own bigotry again. I'm not a "GAA man", I'm an Irish person who follows multiple sports that are played in Ireland, and more importantly I don't spend my time spreading small minded vitriol about the sports I don't follow. For a man who proclaims to be so against discrimination, I have noticed you seem to reserve an unusual amount of hatred for certain sections of society, be that people from Dublin, people who play GAA or Rugby, etc. I suppose that's just another of your numerous foibles.
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We're decent enough..
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pre Madonna
Robbie Keane
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Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 1:39am |
The O'Shea wrote:
pre Madonna wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
Yap yap yap PM, we get it, the GAA are institutionally racist and hate filled even though all of the evidence points to the very opposite, that they're actually the most open and progressive minded organisation in the entire country (not that that's saying much). |
Again ignoring the points I have made and doing your own 'yap yap yap' without saying anything and assuming superiority.
It would be easy to see you are a GAA man without any mention of it needed. |
There you go with your own bigotry again. I'm not a "GAA man", I'm an Irish person who follows multiple sports that are played in Ireland, and more importantly I don't spend my time spreading small minded vitriol about the sports I don't follow. For a man who proclaims to be so against discrimination, I have noticed you seem to reserve an unusual amount of hatred for certain sections of society, be that people from Dublin, people who play GAA or Rugby, etc. I suppose that's just another of your numerous foibles. |
I don't think I have expressed hatred for people who play any sport? I don't think you can call sl*gging the very sensitive population of Dublin as discrimination, but it does provide amusement!
Fair enough if you are not a 'GAA man', you so rarely hear the term 'GAA woman', but you would strike me as such. Apologies if you are not, you do seem very sensitive of criticism towards it though..
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The O'Shea
Jack Charlton
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Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 1:47am |
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You're grasping at straws PM, now suggesting that what, the GAA is not inclusive to women too? Tbh it just shows how detached you are, women's GAA is far and away the most well supported and covered female-played sports in Ireland. Who exactly do the GAA allow in their hallowed association in your warped worldview?
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Fitz
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Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 2:10am |
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If we gave it up then all we’d have left to be this f**king exasperated by would be politicians/the state of the country, so, in a word, ‘no’!
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pre Madonna
Robbie Keane
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Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 2:15am |
The O'Shea wrote:
You're grasping at straws PM, now suggesting that what, the GAA is not inclusive to women too? Tbh it just shows how detached you are, women's GAA is far and away the most well supported and covered female-played sports in Ireland. Who exactly do the GAA allow in their hallowed association in your warped worldview? |
There was more than a hint of playfulness in that, but the results were enjoyable. I imagine the GAA is a lot more accommodating to women now, I would assume. Why this would suggest 'grasping at straws', even if meant as a deliberately discussion of misogyny in the GAA, would again suggest more deflection though.
So to get back to the original point if you want to refute it, made after someone questioned why Irish people could hate the GAA, a question itself loaded connotations that to be really Irish you must like it...
Many on here, and indeed elsewhere, have similar views to me about the GAA. They may not be expressed by the majority due to the unique responses the GAA brings out in all Irish people good and bad, but I would be fairly certain that what I am saying is in someway recognisable to all bar the lucky few. Yet people who support the GAA are loathe to admit to it.
As I said earlier, I understand the devotion that such an institution inspires, but the inability of its supporters and members to accept faults they are surely aware of is something I find bizarre. It is good to hear attitudes are changing, and there is a club in East Belfast etc. but I think they will need to change a lot more for people like myself who were so disheartened at the actions of people within the organisation with little bit of power. These actions are emboldened by the history of cultural and financial supremacy within the state and by the use of language and mythical nationalism to sell it. They can try and change their perception , but to me it feels slightly hypocritical . The attitude that talks of 'true Gaels' is the attitude many of us recognise and despise. I think it was in this debate throughout, that subtle arrogance that suggests the GAA can never be wrong.
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The Huntacha
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Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 6:24am |
sid waddell wrote:
Jack Charlton himself said that the way his teams played suited the Irish temperament because it was the sort of game the Irish expected from their own Gaelic players
He was right
As a sporting nation the "get in amongst them" mentality has always been ingrained into us, or if you like, "put 'em under pressure"
It's why the image of Packie Bonner grimacing and gritting his teeth before hoofing it down the pitch before Sheedy's goal against England is so iconic
It's shown in the way the crowd roared on the big days and nights at Lansdowne Road, whether it was to unsettle the "soft Spanish fancy dans" in '89, to greet Roy Keane's tackle on Overmars in '01 or to put it right up the Germans with route one in 2015, it's why James McClean and Shane Duffy are the personification of modern day Irish football
And to deny otherwise is sort of to erase history
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And it could be argued that it's this mentality that has held us back the most. Having McClean and Duffy as the personification is a truly depressing thought. I know the point you are trying to make, but we need to move away from this being the benchmark for our players. Or at the very least, combine it with technical efficiency.
I'd argue that the way Liverpool and City play with the high press is the modern equivalent of "put 'em under pressure". Yes, I know that they have vastly superior players to implement that style, but our players were actively encouraged against venturing too far from our own box. As a fan, spending more of the game in the opposition half, forcing them into errors, and winning the ball back quickly, is something I would love to see us do, and would definitely have a big effect on the atmosphere inside Lansdowne.
Jack's era was a special time for Irish football, but we have been left so far behind the rest, it's frightening. There's no reason we can't combine our natural mentality of "get in amongst them" with greater technical efficiency and encouragement from the management team to become a proactive, rather than a reactive, team.
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Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 8:15am |
Fitz wrote:
If we gave it up then all we’d have left to be this f**king exasperated by would be politicians/the state of the country, so, in a word, ‘no’! |
As Noam Chomsky said - “ if the working class weren’t distracted by watching sport they would wake up to the utter pointless shallow existence they lead”
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sid waddell
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Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 8:48am |
pre Madonna wrote:
The O'Shea wrote:
You're grasping at straws PM, now suggesting that what, the GAA is not inclusive to women too? Tbh it just shows how detached you are, women's GAA is far and away the most well supported and covered female-played sports in Ireland. Who exactly do the GAA allow in their hallowed association in your warped worldview? |
There was more than a hint of playfulness in that, but the results were enjoyable. I imagine the GAA is a lot more accommodating to women now, I would assume. Why this would suggest 'grasping at straws', even if meant as a deliberately discussion of misogyny in the GAA, would again suggest more deflection though.
So to get back to the original point if you want to refute it, made after someone questioned why Irish people could hate the GAA, a question itself loaded connotations that to be really Irish you must like it...
Many on here, and indeed elsewhere, have similar views to me about the GAA. They may not be expressed by the majority due to the unique responses the GAA brings out in all Irish people good and bad, but I would be fairly certain that what I am saying is in someway recognisable to all bar the lucky few. Yet people who support the GAA are loathe to admit to it.
As I said earlier, I understand the devotion that such an institution inspires, but the inability of its supporters and members to accept faults they are surely aware of is something I find bizarre. It is good to hear attitudes are changing, and there is a club in East Belfast etc. but I think they will need to change a lot more for people like myself who were so disheartened at the actions of people within the organisation with little bit of power. These actions are emboldened by the history of cultural and financial supremacy within the state and by the use of language and mythical nationalism to sell it. They can try and change their perception , but to me it feels slightly hypocritical . The attitude that talks of 'true Gaels' is the attitude many of us recognise and despise. I think it was in this debate throughout, that subtle arrogance that suggests the GAA can never be wrong. |
When you said earlier you had a chip on your shoulder, you should have just left it that, because your unironic attempt to justify that chip has been f**king car crash
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pre Madonna
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Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 8:57am |
And your attempt at refuting my reasons for said chip have been non-existent. Tangents about racist LOI fans, drug dealers and now to just say things like the above, which I would again compare to the pigeon playing chess.
This cult-like devotion is exactly the problem.
Edited by pre Madonna - 08 Sep 2020 at 10:55am
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Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 10:47am |
pre Madonna wrote:
And your attempt at refuting my reasons for said chip have been non-existent. Tangents about racist LOI fans, drug dealers and now to just say things like the above which I would again compare to the pigeon playing chess.
This cult-like devotion is exactly the problem. |
maybe its Free State thing, but in the 6 counties it’s completely different to how you have been describing the GAA. such a vital part of the community up here and honestly where im from the GAA has such a positive role its unbelievable. really shocked by the hate shown towards it tbh, not dismissing your viewpoint on it just because its not something i have experienced btw, but its def an eye opener!!
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sid waddell
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Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 11:13am |
pre Madonna wrote:
And your attempt at refuting my reasons for said chip have been non-existent. Tangents about racist LOI fans, drug dealers and now to just say things like the above, which I would again compare to the pigeon playing chess.
This cult-like devotion is exactly the problem.
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Only one side is cultish mate
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The O'Shea
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Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 11:16am |
pre Madonna wrote:
And your attempt at refuting my reasons for said chip have been non-existent. Tangents about racist LOI fans, drug dealers and now to just say things like the above, which I would again compare to the pigeon playing chess.
This cult-like devotion is exactly the problem.
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Your reasons essentially boil down to the spurious argument that the GAA is a cancer promoting "dangerous ethno-nationalism". The irony of this argument is that you spend a large proportion of your day posting on a forum devoted to the IRISH INTERNATIONAL football team. International football is unambiguously ethno-nationalist, and there is a far more fervent nationalist undertone to games such as Ireland vs England; France vs Germany; Poland vs Russia; etc etc than there is to any aspect of the GAA as an organisation. So unless you are willing to concede that international football is in fact a far larger engine of ethno-nationalist sentiment than the GAA could ever be, it is clear that your argument is grounded in nothing other than your own bitter biases.
Edited by The O'Shea - 08 Sep 2020 at 11:16am
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Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 11:24am |
sid waddell wrote:
pre Madonna wrote:
And your attempt at refuting my reasons for said chip have been non-existent. Tangents about racist LOI fans, drug dealers and now to just say things like the above, which I would again compare to the pigeon playing chess.
This cult-like devotion is exactly the problem.
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Only one side is cultish mate
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Obviously and I'm glad you admitted it.
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