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Poll Question: Both the Nations League & EURO 2020 Playoff....
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pre Madonna View Drop Down
Robbie Keane
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

He wore a poppy badge that represented a regiment that was infiltrated by loyalist paramilitaries.

The Catholic church in Ireland was "infiltrated" by paedophiles. Many people including priests, bishops and even cardinals, must have known, if only from their own experiences in schools and seminaries, or that of friends and colleagues. Moreover they must also have known that many in the hierarchy were turning a blind eye, or even covering it up.

Should they not have been allowed preferment in the church, even when they had neither engaged in such practices or condoned it? And should they not be permitted to display the symbols of their faith, even though many victims of the church will have been traumatised by their experience, and can't bear to be reminded of it?

Fact is, you have no evidence whatever that TW "endorsed the murder of Catholics", whereas there is any amount of evidence down the years to suggest that he has no problems with Catholics, nor they with him.

(May I assume you do know the meaning of the word "evidence"?)
The Catholic Church wasn't infiltrated by anything! It was run by paedophiles and worse were those who knew and said nothing. I don't understand the correlation?
 
Wright endorsed the murder of innocent people by wearing a UDR poppy. As has been repeatedly said, I do not care about anything else. Wearing a UDR badge, nearly a quarter of a century after they were disbanded, was an endorsement of sectarian murder. 
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Robbie Keane
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

He wore a poppy badge that represented a regiment that was infiltrated by loyalist paramilitaries.

The Catholic church in Ireland was "infiltrated" by paedophiles. Many people including priests, bishops and even cardinals, must have known, if only from their own experiences in schools and seminaries, or that of friends and colleagues. Moreover they must also have known that many in the hierarchy were turning a blind eye, or even covering it up.

Should they not have been allowed preferment in the church, even when they had neither engaged in such practices or condoned it? And should they not be permitted to display the symbols of their faith, even though many victims of the church will have been traumatised by their experience, and can't bear to be reminded of it?

Fact is, you have no evidence whatever that TW "endorsed the murder of Catholics", whereas there is any amount of evidence down the years to suggest that he has no problems with Catholics, nor they with him.

(May I assume you do know the meaning of the word "evidence"?)
Yes. Exhibit A would be the thing he knowingly pinned to his chest.
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Robbie Keane
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 I will say this, nobody has ever tried to use the Catholic Church in an argument against me before.LOL
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Jack Charlton
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

The reason so many left, and almost overnight, is because of the nature of the organisation.

As I said, there were differing reasons why they left, you prefer to home in on the one which suits your argument.

Just like there are differing reasons why TW might wear such a badge and you will only (ahem) endorse the one which suits you there, too.

Which is the point at issue here.

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Because by being sympathetic to the organisation, at all, should be, completely unacceptable. If not at the time, then certainly in hindsight. Maybe not for your average Nordie, but if they want to manage a football team spreading inclusivity. 

So if someone finds his vocation and opts to become a priest, he should be disbarred from doing so on the basis that he was previously sympathetic to the church, incl whilst the abuse was going on?

At least in hindsight.






Edited by Territorial - 10 Jun 2020 at 1:31am
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Robbie Keane
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

The reason so many left, and almost overnight, is because of the nature of the organisation.

As I said, there were differing reasons why they left, you prefer to home in on the one which suits your argument.

Just like there are differing reasons why TW might wear such a badge and you will only (ahem) endorse the one which suits you there, too.

Which is the point at issue here.

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Because by being sympathetic to the organisation, at all, should be, completely unacceptable. If not at the time, then certainly in hindsight. Maybe not for your average Nordie, but if they want to manage a football team spreading inclusivity. 

So if someone finds his vocation and opts to become a priest, he should be disbarred from doing so on the basis that he was previously sympathetic to the church, incl whilst the abuse was going on?

At least in hindsight.





Can you explain the differing reasons why he might wear such a badge at such a time? Preferably without the unnecessary extras.

Yes, that has been my stance for years. You cannot claim to be a Christian otherwise. The Catholic Church is a vile organisation, but that, again,  isn't relevant. 
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Territorial View Drop Down
Jack Charlton
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

The Catholic Church wasn't infiltrated by anything! It was run by paedophiles and worse were those who knew and said nothing. I don't understand the correlation?

OK, "infiltrated" or "run by", your choice.

But if sectarian abuses by a minority of UDR members makes it impossible to show acknowledge the service of the majority, then the sex abuse by a minority of priests must equally make it impossible to acknowledge the service of the majority.

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Wright endorsed the murder of innocent people by wearing a UDR poppy.
Just like my neighbour "endorses" the abuse of innocent children by wearing her crucifix then.

For we must allow no other explanation for such a display.

And she should certainly not be allowed anywhere near children, either.


Edited by Territorial - 10 Jun 2020 at 1:41am
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Robbie Keane
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

The Catholic Church wasn't infiltrated by anything! It was run by paedophiles and worse were those who knew and said nothing. I don't understand the correlation?

OK, "infiltrated" or "run by", your choice.

But if sectarian abuses by a minority of UDR members makes it impossible to show support for the sacrifice of the majority, then the sex abuse by a minority of priests must equally make it impossible to acknowledge the good works of the majority.

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Wright endorsed the murder of innocent people by wearing a UDR poppy.
Just like my neighbour "endorses" the abuse of innocent children by wearing her crucifix then.

For we must allow no other explanation for such a display.
It wasn't a minority though. It was a rotten sectarian organisation that deliberately murdered people based on nothing. Nobody  should have a problem admitting that. The fact you don't,  based on nothing more than a sympathiser might manage a football team you like, says a lot.
 
I would conflate wearing a crucifix with wearing an ordinary poppy. I would conflate wearing a UDR poppy with wearing a Jimmy Savile badge. I think he was a Catholic. In fact, he must have been a good one, because he f**ked loads of kids!
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Jack Charlton
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Can you explain the differing reasons why he might wear such a badge at such a time? Preferably without the unnecessary extras.
I have already outlined acceptable reasons why he might have worn it.

But you are the one claiming that he has an ulterior reason for wearing it, so it must be for you to produce the evidence to support your claim.

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Yes, that has been my stance for years. You cannot claim to be a Christian otherwise. The Catholic Church is a vile organisation, but that, again,  isn't relevant. 
Do you mean "not relevant", or "not convenient" (to your argument).

Or are you saying that no-one should be allowed to be appointed eg to be head teacher of a school, or manager of a childrens' home, if he/she had also been a practising Catholic at a time when these abuses were being revealed?

And you know, continues to be a member today, maybe even wears a crucifix?

Or is it that despite your protestations, it's only one of these two "vile organisations" you realy have the problem with?


Edited by Territorial - 10 Jun 2020 at 1:54am
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Can you explain the differing reasons why he might wear such a badge at such a time? Preferably without the unnecessary extras.
I have already outlined acceptable reasons why he might have worn it.

But you are the one claiming that he has an ulterior reason for wearing it, so it must be for you to produce the evidence to support your claim.

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Yes, that has been my stance for years. You cannot claim to be a Christian otherwise. The Catholic Church is a vile organisation, but that, again,  isn't relevant. 
Do you mean "not relevant", or "not convenient" (to your argument).

Or are you saying that no-one should be allowed to be appointed eg to be head teacher of a school, or manager of a childrens' home, if he/she had also been a practising Catholic at a time when these abuses were being revealed?

And you know, continues to be a member today, maybe even wears a crucifix?

Or is it that despite your protestations, it's only one of these two "vile organisations" you realy have the problem with?
I know why he might have worn it! What I am looking for is acceptable reasons that he might have worn it and then became manager of Norn Iron, without that being divisive. I believe that was the point.

I'll gladly talk about the RCC all night long, but it isn't relevant here. 
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Originally posted by Mr Brick Mr Brick wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

The only teams that can win [the CL] are: 3 from Spain; 6 from England; and 1 each from Italy, France and Germany.

I hate predictability in a football competition, too.

It's why I could never be a fan of an SPL team, for instance.

Or Linfield or Glentoran, say? Only the 76 titles between them and many of Glentoran's in what I estimate to be in your youth. 

The SPL doesn't exist, by the way.

Despite enjoying this time as a Celtic fan, especially as I started following them in 1990 and didn't really enjoy the following years, I agree. But I am not suggesting people stop their individual teams for competitions not being competitive, although I do struggle to see how they can when they have become so far removed from their community(Celtic stretch that at times too, albeit slightly less than Sheikh Mansour), but merely pointing out that they are.
I would be in preference of changing things in Scottish football, as elsewhere, primarily in the splitting of gate receipts 50-50, as that is what caused the greatest division between Celtic and Rangers and the rest originally, before the player's untimely death due to gluttony.

It is the weird psychology of the football fan that in an argument about football that is completely unrelated to a team you support, that team must be brought into it. I think you often refer to it as 'whataboutery'.
Chrissakes! The pathetic retort of a cornered rat. 
Explain. 
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Jack Charlton
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Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

It wasn't a minority though. It was a rotten sectarian organisation that deliberately murdered people based on nothing. Nobody  should have a problem admitting that.

Once again, the organisation did not deliberately murder people, any more than eg "the Catholic church" deliberately raped children.

And those members who did do so were a minority, indeed a tiny minority, who had to disguise their vile activities under the cover of paramilitary organisations.

Just as that minority of priests who abused children had to do so covertly as well.

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

The fact you don't,  based on nothing more than a sympathiser might manage a football team you like, says a lot.

I base it on my own direct experience. This includes knowing many members personally, who were nothing like you portray them, all of whom were threatened and intimidated, many of whom were attacked, and some of whom were murdered.

And you?

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I would conflate wearing a crucifix with wearing an ordinary poppy. I would conflate wearing a UDR poppy with wearing a Jimmy Savile badge.
No, the correct analogy would be someone wearing a Radio One badge, and you condemning them for it on the basis of a minority of DJ's being nonces.

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

 I think he was a Catholic. In fact, he must have been a good one, because he f**ked loads of kids!
Charming.

Anyhow, it's late so I'll go now.

But we can return to this when you've some actual evidence for your claim that TW is a sectarian bigot who actively endorses and supports the murder of Catholics.

No hurry.


Edited by Territorial - 10 Jun 2020 at 2:26am
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Robbie Keane
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

It wasn't a minority though. It was a rotten sectarian organisation that deliberately murdered people based on nothing. Nobody  should have a problem admitting that.

Once again, the organisation did not "deliberately murder" people, any more than eg the Catholic church deliberately raped children.

And those members who did do so were a minority, indeed a timy minority, who had to disguise their vile activities under the cover of paramilitary organisations.

Just as that minority of priests who abused children had to so covertly as well.

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

The fact you don't,  based on nothing more than a sympathiser might manage a football team you like, says a lot.

I base it on my own direct experience. This includes knowing many members personally, who were nothing like you portray them, all of whom were threatened and intimidated, many of whom were attacked, and some of whom were murdered.

And you?

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

I would conflate wearing a crucifix with wearing an ordinary poppy. I would conflate wearing a UDR poppy with wearing a Jimmy Savile badge.
No, the correct analogy would be someone wearing a Radio One badge, and you condemning them for it on the basis of a minority of DJ's being nonces.

Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

 I think he was a Catholic. In fact, he must have been a good one, because he f**ked loads of kids!
Charming.

Anyhow, it's late so I'll go now.

But we can return to this when you've some actual evidence that TW is a sectarian bigot who actively endorses and supports the murder of Catholics.

No hurry.
I wouldn't say the church didn't deliberately rape children. I would be fairly certain it was deliberate and organised within it? Obviously not by the whole institution,  but did they even try to stop it? Anyway, not relevant.

What is happening here is that your judgement,  based on people you know, which has bizarrely come to light after several hours, is now relevant and worth mentioning. Well done for finding the strength to mention it now. Sleepy

Now my mate Sammy, who was in the UDR, admits that they murdered people for no reason. How relevant is that? I thought as much...

Now, the original point, which still remains, isn't for me to prove or disprove whether he is anything or nothing. I am not trying to prove whether he is a 'sectarian bigot'(sic) or not; nor whether or not he endorses the murder of Catholics, for that much  is clearly established. Supporting is a different matter, but endorsing is known.

I am simply asking  to establish whether it is acceptable for Norn Iron to appoint a man who finds the UDR relevant; and, secondly question, is it inclusive to do so.

Now, the obvious answer to everyone, including yourself, is 'no'. But you are afraid of backtracking...


Edited by pre Madonna - 10 Jun 2020 at 2:51am
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The UDR did not deliberately murder people 
Okkaaaayyyyy

Says all you need to know about Terri’s argument here. His mask is slipping again
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89 new posts in this thread. I stupidly taught there might have been actual news on the payoff
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Originally posted by foggy.nelson foggy.nelson wrote:

89 new posts in this thread. I stupidly taught there might have been actual news on the payoff
 
That would be in the John Delaney thread
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Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Originally posted by foggy.nelson foggy.nelson wrote:

89 new posts in this thread. I stupidly taught there might have been actual news on the payoff
 
That would be in the John Delaney thread

LOLLOL
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Originally posted by foggy.nelson foggy.nelson wrote:

89 new posts in this thread. I stupidly taught there might have been actual news on the payoff

Was thinking the same.
I do have an interest on when the playoff will be - I've no interest in Tommy Wright.
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Originally posted by Borussia Borussia wrote:

Originally posted by foggy.nelson foggy.nelson wrote:

89 new posts in this thread. I stupidly taught there might have been actual news on the payoff

Was thinking the same.
I do have an interest on when the playoff will be - I've no interest in Tommy Wright.

It reminds me of working on the incinerator in Poolbeg, we had two crews and the night shift would come in and we would leave them work that couldn't be done during the day due to higher volume of workers, safety officers and managers. The next day you would come in and something entirely different would be done.
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