Non Irish born fans

There is no island called "Britain".

The island comprising England, Scotland and Wales is properly known as "Great Britain" and has been since Norman times (if not earlier), originally to distinguish it from the other, smaller "Britain" i.e. Brittany. ("great" as in "large").

And whilst we're on the subject, Great Britain and the various other islands on the archipelago - Man, Shetland, Hebrides, Ireland etc - are collectively known as "The British Isles". Now I expect that many posters on here object to that, but hey ho, what can they do.  

DeclanDaly wrote: If you are from the island of Britain you are British, if you are from the island of Ireland you are Irish.

I am Irish, because I was born in Ireland (island) - it's obvious the moment I open my mouth! This is a geographical and cultural description and I am entirely at ease with it. Indeed I would say I'm proud of it - if that's not being immodest about something over which I had no control.

But as a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, I am also British - it's on my passport after all! I am equally proud of that.

Meanwhile I only use the term "British" because to describe myself as "United Kingdomish" would sound a bit silly. (It's a bit like eg citizens of the Kingdom of the Netherlands routinely calling themselves "Dutch", rather than "Netherlandish").

I see no contradiction in any of this, since each designation refers to something different i.e. culture/geography versus nationality/politics. Indeed I consider myself lucky to be able to embrace both, all under the label of "Northern Irish" - my preferred designation.

All that said, I have no objection to other people from NI classifying themselves solely as "British" or "Irish", so long as they don't in turn demand that I adopt their particular choice too. (Unfortunately far too many do, on both sides).

DeclanDaly wrote: Are you referring to “fellow Britons” because of your ethnic background (you can trace ancestors back to somewhere in Britain) or because you are part of the United Kingdom?

For me it's the latter, although as it happens, my ancestral background seems to date mostly back to Scotland.

Or both.

gspain wrote: Some extreme Loyalists would support England over Northern Ireland in football.  Not too comfortable with green shirts and a Celtic Cross on the badge.

Yep, and if you see them sans England shirt, you can still recognise them by the fact their penis is on their forehead, not their groin. Billy Hutchinson was/is one notable example, most prominently at the time of that game in 2005.

That said, like eg a white (i.e. albino) blackbird, their novelty value meant they got far more attention than their numbers deserved.  And I suspect that with the NI team being pretty crap at the same time as England being OK (just), it was a bit like people choosing to support eg Liverpool, Leeds or Man United because they were the most successful team of the moment, rather than because they had some particular connection. (As a Spurs fan, no-one can accuse me of Glory Hunting!).

Anyhow, from what I can see, they're pretty much an endangered species these days, possibly because everytime they go to reproduce, it's not only the women who get a headache

gspain wrote: Many now actually consider themselves Northern Irish eg Rory McIlroy.

Yep.

gspain wrote: However I suspect the vast vast majority of our fans from north of the border just consider themselves Irish.

Yep again, a process made easier in football terms during the period when ROI were going great guns and NI were crap.

(I say made "easier", since I imagine that wasn't the only, or even the predominant, factor)

That's because until recently at least, rugby in Ireland was seen as a cultural and social, even class, matter, with little or none of the political baggage which infected so much of the rest of Irish life. It was helped too by the fact that Ulster/NI was for long a (the?) powerhouse of the game within Ireland.

And you shouldn't imagine that such people represent a majority of the Unionist population. When you count the numbers of Unionists who don't vote for the DUP, or don't vote at all, they outnumber those who do. And even for those who do vote DUP, many do so solely in order to keep "Themmuns" out, rather than because they're Bible-bashing, anti-gay bigots etc. (It's like not assuming that every SF voter is a Provo-loving terrorist sympathiser, even if the candidates who receive their vote may be)

Meanwhile, the TUV only receives a pitiful vote these days, which I predict will disappear entirely when Allister snuffs it.

As for the OO, no-one knows for certain how many members it has, since they don't publish the figures (curiously enough), but reliable estimates suggest that it is now down to fewer than 25k, which as a percentage of the PUL community of 1m, represents 2-3% at most.

And all of that is before you consider the make-up of northern rugby fans themselves. For rugby itself is very much a minority activity in NI, confined mostly to middle class, grammar school types from affluent areas East of the Bann.

All of which means that your observation, even if accurate, isn't very representative of very much at all.

Like a lot of your comments on NI, as it happens.

horsebox wrote: Move away from sports and they'd see Ireland as a foreign country.

I think you mean the "Irish Republic", rather than "Ireland", which confusion actually goes to the heart of the matter.

For when rugby fans from NI looked on their game, they always saw it purely in sporting, social and cultural terms. Therefore they could happily park their personal political preferences for 80 minutes at Lansdowne and get behind their team.

But I use the past tense, because many are increasingly uneasy with what they see as the growing process whereby the "Ireland" (i.e. island) team is now just becoming the "ROI team with a couple of added Prods".

This was brought sharply into focus when LR was closed and Ireland decided to play Italy at Ravenhill a few years back, thus raising the thorny issue of the anthem.

Traditionally, when the team played home games in Dublin, the SS was always played, but when playing at home in Belfast, it was supposed to be GSTQ. Sometime in the 50's, however, some Southern players refused to come out of the dressing room until GSTQ was over as a protest. However the IRFU was able to duck the issue since they stopped playing at Ravenhill around then anyhow, meaning the fiction of "2 anthems in 2 jurisdictions" could be maintained.

Then the Italy match unexpectedly arose. Now this should have been the ideal pretext for doing away with all political anthems entirely and  in future simply sticking with a neutral tune to which all could adhere, Ireland's Call being the obvious choice.

But no, by a feat of contortion to do a gymnast proud, they decided that this was being played "outside Ireland" [sic]], meaning the protocol for away games would be followed. And that protocol demands (surprise surprise) that only Ireland's Call be played!

For a number of rugby fans in NI, that proved to be the last straw and they stopped following the team as before. Meanwhile for others, traditional allegiances and friendships still prevail, and/or their love for the game means that they don't want to be left completely without any international team to follow, so they just grin and bear it. Either way, many are unhappy.

Moreover, those few Ulster players who do now get picked for the team are unable to repeat the earlier protest by the men of Munster and Leinster, since the game is now professional. Which means they'd be putting their livelihood on the line, rather  than just having 3 or 4 extra Saturdays free to attend to the farm etc.

Meaning that the IRFU now clearly doesn't give a fcuk. Worse still, it doesn't see why it should have to so long as LR is filled every game, which it is.