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Coronavirus - Remain Calm. Do Not Panic

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sid waddell View Drop Down
Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2020 at 10:35am
Originally posted by BabbsBalls BabbsBalls wrote:

The current restrictions have only been in for the last couple of days 🤷🏼‍♂️
We've had restrictions of one form or another since last March

Level 2 restrictions were clearly not adequate because the virus spread was constantly growing

That was not a sustainable situation because ultimately it does lead to overwhelming of the health service

It would appear that you believe it was a sustainable situation

Is this the case?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabbsBalls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2020 at 10:36am
Absolutely. My wife is a primary teacher so I know exactly what you mean.

One thing that is certain is that the health service has needed more resources for god knows how long. And that failing has had a huge impact on governmental policies during the covid situation, possibly the biggest as they are terrified of there not being enough ICU beds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabbsBalls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2020 at 10:40am
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by BabbsBalls BabbsBalls wrote:

The current restrictions have only been in for the last couple of days 🤷🏼‍♂️
We've had restrictions of one form or another since last March

Level 2 restrictions were clearly not adequate because the virus spread was constantly growing

That was not a sustainable situation because ultimately it does lead to overwhelming of the health service

It would appear that you believe it was a sustainable situation

Is this the case?

Possibly. The number of those going into ICU was nearly identical to the number of those leaving it..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2020 at 10:43am
Originally posted by BabbsBalls BabbsBalls wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

It really baffles me how so many people who are clearly not experts can be so strong in their opinions whether that is on here or on Twitter etc.   





You are a clever guy baldrick. I find it hard to believe you would be baffled by people on social media. . 

Social media always has its cranks and loopers.   What I am baffled at is that when it comes to this virus many sensible sound people have picked a side and are going with it.    There doesn't seem to much reasonable rational discussion that maybe a very balanced nuanced approach is the way forward.  If you say Tony H is doing a good job you get attacked  if you say gyms should maybe be open you get attacked etc. ETC.   

One thing I learned early on is sometimes you have 3 options  a sh*t option and even sh*tter option and the sh*ttiest options  Many smart people even on prime time the other night aren't honest and they try to portray it as their good option  (whatever that may be and then two sh*t options which they argue against)  

It's this idea that there are easy answers or that there is an option or a route that is not a disaster.   Whatever option that gets chosen will be able to be ripped to shreds by the other side.  Unfortunately  not enough people realise that and that us the case for people who want greater restrictions and less restrictions. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2020 at 10:44am
Originally posted by thebronze14 thebronze14 wrote:

They are saying today that level 5 is working but a couple of weeks ago after nearly 2 weeks in level 3 it was too early to tell if restrictions were working. With communication like this it's little wonder people have little faith in those leading the fight against this. Some will follow what is being said blindly but it is important to question what is going on as well. I'm following the restrictions but I have great reservations about what they are saying at the moment. Can see this most clearly in the school setting
See I have a problem with some of that rhetoric - particularly the bit where "some will follow what is said blindly"

It portrays people who believe there is a need for Level 5 restrictions as sheep

That's not helpful

Unfortunately I believe that many of those who "question" things are doing so from a bad faith perspective and are frequently hysterical in their rhetoric

The sports journalist Ewan MacKenna is a prominent example, David Quinn and Ciara Kelly would be other examples, and this Ivor Cummins chap is definitely another 

I'm all for good faith questioning however and there is certainly much scope for that

Others may disagree with this but that's what I see and I can only give my opinion

Do I believe there is a need for Level 5 restrictions? Yes, because NPHET say so and I trust them - they are the people best placed to know

Do I think NPHET are infallible? No, certainly not

The problem I think is that a lot of the criticism of NPHET is being done in a clear bad faith manner, ascribing cynical motives to them that simply aren't there


Edited by sid waddell - 24 Oct 2020 at 10:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabbsBalls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2020 at 10:46am
Sid. With only 3 people going into ICU do you think it’s a good idea to stay at level 5 for another month and a half ? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2020 at 10:56am
Originally posted by BabbsBalls BabbsBalls wrote:

Sid. With only 3 people going into ICU do you think it’s a good idea to stay at level 5 for another month and a half ? 
We do not have many ICU beds in this country - I believe we have only something like 260/270 odd and very few of those are currently spare, something like 30 odd

You can probably ramp up capacity somewhat in an emergency situation but not by a huge amount

If 3 people are going into ICU per day, that's 21 a week

This is only October 24th and the natural tendency with respiratory illnesses seems to be that they spread much more during the winter because people are indoors more

So there's plenty of reason to think that what is happening at the moment may only be the tip of rather large iceberg

Level 5 is not ideal for sure but yes, I do believe it's necessary for at least the next six weeks because the alternative to me would seem to be untenable

The problem as I see it is that the lack of a longer term suppression strategy and that's something that is urgently required 

Whether it is achievable or not I don't know

What I would like to know is what your previous posts mean in practice as regards what restrictions or lack of restrictions you would like to see - and what that means in practice

Like, if it was up to you, would pubs be open, or cinemas, and theatres etc., would crowds be allowed at football matches and if so how many - or should public transport capacity be upped to 100% again, what is your view on masks in shops etc.

And then what would the implications of that be


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2020 at 10:58am
1 day stats are no place to build an argument.   14 day stats are what matters whether that is icu admissions or hospital admissions or cases.   

May be an argument for 7 day if they were rising very sharply so you can act quickly.   But esp on the downslide I wouldnt be jumping to anything beyond a 14 day stat 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2020 at 11:02am
Originally posted by BabbsBalls BabbsBalls wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by BabbsBalls BabbsBalls wrote:

The current restrictions have only been in for the last couple of days 🤷🏼‍♂️
We've had restrictions of one form or another since last March

Level 2 restrictions were clearly not adequate because the virus spread was constantly growing

That was not a sustainable situation because ultimately it does lead to overwhelming of the health service

It would appear that you believe it was a sustainable situation

Is this the case?

Possibly. The number of those going into ICU was nearly identical to the number of those leaving it..
But the number of cases was exploding under Level 2 restrictions - we went from 10 odd cases a day to over a thousand in a couple of months - so the more the number of cases grows, the more people go into hospital and into ICU

You cannot let this situation continue indefinitely - it's simple maths

And if the health service is overwhelmed that has severe implications for everybody who needs hospital treatment - whether it is for Covid or for something else

Note that I am not saying there are not currently issues as regards people who have non-Covid medical problems - but if you let the health service be overwhelmed, those problems will only be amplified
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2020 at 11:30am
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

1 day stats are no place to build an argument.   14 day stats are what matters whether that is icu admissions or hospital admissions or cases.   

May be an argument for 7 day if they were rising very sharply so you can act quickly.   But esp on the downslide I wouldnt be jumping to anything beyond a 14 day stat 
I agree with this, I think there has been far too much conclusion jumping and over the top social media rhetoric based on one day figures, the trends are the important thing
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabbsBalls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2020 at 11:33am
True. I agreed with the lockdown in March obviously as it was new to everyone. I just think it’s right to question how deadly this virus actually is (cue figures from France , USA).

For arguments sake, if the common flue just arrived in China last year and the rest of the world shortly after it’s very likely we would do the exact same thing. RTE giving us daily figures on flue cases, deaths, hospital admissions etc. . A flue tracing app for everyone. It’s not too far fetched. Last year millions died from flue, even with a vaccine available. Point being, covid is new so people are sh*tting the bed. I just think its quite possible that it’s not deadly enough to send everyone home , peoples business’s into ruin and destroy economies worldwide. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabbsBalls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2020 at 11:34am
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

1 day stats are no place to build an argument.   14 day stats are what matters whether that is icu admissions or hospital admissions or cases.   

May be an argument for 7 day if they were rising very sharply so you can act quickly.   But esp on the downslide I wouldnt be jumping to anything beyond a 14 day stat 
I agree with this, I think there has been far too much conclusion jumping and over the top social media rhetoric based on one day figures, the trends are the important thing

Not if the figures are similar everyday. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2020 at 11:37am
Originally posted by BabbsBalls BabbsBalls wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

1 day stats are no place to build an argument.   14 day stats are what matters whether that is icu admissions or hospital admissions or cases.   

May be an argument for 7 day if they were rising very sharply so you can act quickly.   But esp on the downslide I wouldnt be jumping to anything beyond a 14 day stat 
I agree with this, I think there has been far too much conclusion jumping and over the top social media rhetoric based on one day figures, the trends are the important thing

Not if the figures are similar everyday. 

Then you use the average daily figure over a 14 day period. 


Edited by Baldrick - 24 Oct 2020 at 11:38am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2020 at 11:49am
Originally posted by BabbsBalls BabbsBalls wrote:

True. I agreed with the lockdown in March obviously as it was new to everyone. I just think it’s right to question how deadly this virus actually is (cue figures from France , USA).

For arguments sake, if the common flue just arrived in China last year and the rest of the world shortly after it’s very likely we would do the exact same thing. RTE giving us daily figures on flue cases, deaths, hospital admissions etc. . A flue tracing app for everyone. It’s not too far fetched. Last year millions died from flue, even with a vaccine available. Point being, covid is new so people are sh*tting the bed. I just think its quite possible that it’s not deadly enough to send everyone home , peoples business’s into ruin and destroy economies worldwide. 

Figures from France and the US are very relevant though

There has been no flu season in the US anyway that has been remotely comparable to Covid in terms of deaths - and with flu seasons we don't shut down - so the spread and how it works through populations is not comparable either

Unfortunately we do not have any real empirical evidence of what would happen if people behave as normal in a Covid situation - because every country has employed some form of restrictions - but there's every reason to think it would be pretty devastating for societies

One thing I've consistently said all through this is that public health and economic health are not in opposition to each other - they are complementary, yet still the narrative has persisted that they are in opposition

Yes of course Covid being new and the fact there is no reliable treatment for it is a key factor here - we're still dealing with a far from entirely known quantity

There's more than enough evidence to suggest that long Covid is a serious problem 

Nobody wants Level 5 - but some of us - most of us I think - accept it is necessary






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabbsBalls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2020 at 11:50am
Baldrick. Come on. We all see the death figures each day... 2,0,2,3,1,0,5 etc .. Those going into ICU are similar also. As well as those going out. You are dismissing facts too easily here.

Edited by BabbsBalls - 24 Oct 2020 at 11:51am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2020 at 11:52am
Originally posted by BabbsBalls BabbsBalls wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

1 day stats are no place to build an argument.   14 day stats are what matters whether that is icu admissions or hospital admissions or cases.   

May be an argument for 7 day if they were rising very sharply so you can act quickly.   But esp on the downslide I wouldnt be jumping to anything beyond a 14 day stat 
I agree with this, I think there has been far too much conclusion jumping and over the top social media rhetoric based on one day figures, the trends are the important thing

Not if the figures are similar everyday. 

Relying on daily figures is a bit like saying that you get snow on a particular day, so global warming is therefore not happening
 
The nature of daily figures is that they bob up and down, like the sea

The trend is the important thing


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BabbsBalls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2020 at 11:56am
I get that. But here the figures are not fluctuation much. It’s silly to dismiss them  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2020 at 11:58am
Originally posted by BabbsBalls BabbsBalls wrote:

Baldrick. Come on. We all see the death figures each day... 2,0,2,3,1,0,5 etc .. Those going into ICU are similar also. As well as those going out. You are dismissing facts too easily here.
Well there were 13 deaths the other day and 7 another day

The death figures are going up week on week and the case figures are going up week on week

You can't let that continue indefinitely because the health service would end up being totally overwhelmed which has terrible implications for society, and would spread absolute panic 

Like, on an individual level, how would we feel if we knew that the health service had been completely overwhelmed and there was no guarantee we'd be seen to if we needed it

And it wouldn't be a typical winter situation like we talk about each year, it would be way more serious than that

The only option would be to not get ill, and in my view that's not an option we can choose as a society
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