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Het-field
Roy Keane By Appointment to His Majesty The King Joined: 08 Mar 2016 Status: Online Points: 10347 |
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Labour and the SD's will have to merge, and under the SD banner to cast off the shackles of the 2011-2016 Government. Labour we hamstrung at the time, but the fact that it has been five years of chronic decline, they will have to do something in order to revive their fortunes, and that may need to be the relinquishing of the Labour brand. They have the ability to form the centre-left block, especially if SF go in to government.
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50%lesssugar&salt
Liam Brady Joined: 02 Sep 2017 Status: Offline Points: 1230 |
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What is a social progressive?
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Het-field
Roy Keane By Appointment to His Majesty The King Joined: 08 Mar 2016 Status: Online Points: 10347 |
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People interested in social progress. The expansion of personal rights. That sort of thing.
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50%lesssugar&salt
Liam Brady Joined: 02 Sep 2017 Status: Offline Points: 1230 |
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Fair enough. It is a term though that probably all political groupings could claim. I am sure Margaret Thatcher would have seen herself as socially progressive.
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Het-field
Roy Keane By Appointment to His Majesty The King Joined: 08 Mar 2016 Status: Online Points: 10347 |
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Definitely. Although it becomes harder and harder to claim if there is no record in the area. The Irish Labour party, to me, has a strong claim on the term, especially considering its history and the social reform that has happened under its watch. It is no coincidence that in Ireland, things like Divorce and Equal Marriage were achieved under their watch, and the groundwork for the Repeal referendum was done under their watch. In conjunction, FG had historically been more socially liberal, when working with Labour, and their more conservative teeth have only cropped up in the past five years when they didn't need to defer to Labour. In Ireland, there is certainly a definable progressive movement. The difficulty is its co-opted by a lot of people who would either use the progressive mindset to further an ideological agenda, or people who would give crumbs of social progress to give themselves a record, when inherently they would be conservatives.
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Baldrick
Robbie Keane Peyton-tly Pedantic Joined: 18 Sep 2008 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 32517 |
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The labour party's record on economic matters is there to be critique and rightly so. However Heitfeld is correct they are one of the few parties that can hold their head high in relation to social issues and not just in protest but in actually getting things over the line. However there is no long term votes in it as many social democratic parties have found. As Clinton famously said it's the economy stupid.
Edited by Baldrick - 31 Jan 2021 at 10:30am |
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AKA pedantic kunt
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Het-field
Roy Keane By Appointment to His Majesty The King Joined: 08 Mar 2016 Status: Online Points: 10347 |
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True, and while I suspect it won't be a popular opinion on here, economic progress is not the preserve of the left. Right wing parties certainly, prior to 2002 had a record of things like introducing the highest minimum wages in Europe. And, things like the reduction in corporation tax has been economically progressive in terms of FDI and job creation. Liberalising markets can be extremely progressive, and when you think about the deregulation of the taxi market, that was progressive. Funny enough, one of SF's most prominent goals, about Insurance reform, was historically a PD policy. Social progress is relatively easy to quantify, as it involves the expansion of personal and social rights. Economic progress, not so much.
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50%lesssugar&salt
Liam Brady Joined: 02 Sep 2017 Status: Offline Points: 1230 |
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I tend to agree with the majority of what ye both said there. With FG it is a little more complex with there traditionally being two competing wings within the party, particularly on social issues. The Declan Costello just society document and the leadership of Garret Fitzgerald being examples of the social progressives.
Labour deserve much more credit than given on their achievements in government. The key point for me is looking at the record of achievement. The fact that recent social change has been so widely accepted and supported is probably the most impressive piece.
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Het-field
Roy Keane By Appointment to His Majesty The King Joined: 08 Mar 2016 Status: Online Points: 10347 |
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Modern politics doesnt have much time for historic achievements. Promise the sun the moon and the stars, pick holes in parties actually interested in Governance, and brag about the number of papers you sold at marches and demonstrations, and your own rhetoric, and that gets you in the door. The fact that Labour were hamstrung by the terms of the troika matters little when it comes to evaluating Labour.
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Double Maxim
Robbie Keane Joined: 24 Sep 2008 Location: Sunderland Status: Offline Points: 42821 |
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Double Maxim without doubt the greatest drink in the world
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Het-field
Roy Keane By Appointment to His Majesty The King Joined: 08 Mar 2016 Status: Online Points: 10347 |
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In a small, but relevant move this week, I saw Paul Murphy joined PBP. Anybody who remembers that politics didn't start in 2012 will have to acknowledge that this is an interesting move from the point of view of the original divide between the Socialist Party and the SWP, as it was before the rebrand for the latter in 2007.
Normally, I have to point and laugh at what the likes of PBP do, but this is an interesting step towards co-operation and unification, and IIRC PBP did actually engage in potential government formation talks. Murphy is really the heir to Higgins, and I suspect this move may encourage a degree of unification around the PBP banner, leaving behind others, and in particular the people who want to be permanent protestors, without any interest in being involved in legislating.
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sid waddell
Roy Keane On a dark desert highway Joined: 20 Nov 2009 Status: Offline Points: 12173 |
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People Before Profit advocated zero Covid/aggressive suppression from the start
I'm open to correction on this, but I'm pretty sure they were the only Irish political grouping of any standing to do so On the most important issue of our time, they stood alone in getting it right And that should be remembered
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FrankosHereNow
Roy Keane I like Klopp Joined: 02 Jun 2011 Location: El Sadar Status: Online Points: 12139 |
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YBIG Quiz Champion 2016, 2017 & 2018.
As You Were Three in a row |
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Het-field
Roy Keane By Appointment to His Majesty The King Joined: 08 Mar 2016 Status: Online Points: 10347 |
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Of course they did. Set up a standard of perfection, and then complain when the Government cant and don't implement it. And internally in the roadmap is plenty of their ideology.
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seanyshuffler
Jack Charlton PM snitch Joined: 09 Jun 2011 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 9535 |
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Didn't Paul Murphy leave PBP to set up his own group recently or am I mixing up parties?
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sid waddell
Roy Keane On a dark desert highway Joined: 20 Nov 2009 Status: Offline Points: 12173 |
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PBP were correct on this It wasn't about perfection at all It was about recognising the central reality that you couldn't live with Covid Failure to recognise that = doomed policy What we got: doomed policy PBP were right and the government and other parties were wrong |
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sid waddell
Roy Keane On a dark desert highway Joined: 20 Nov 2009 Status: Offline Points: 12173 |
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In fact opponents of zero Covid/aggressive suppression have continually pointed to it not being perfect as a reason to viciously oppose it
Our government and political class in general, along with the granny-killing psychopaths of the far right who you'd expect, all opposed a good idea because it wasn't perfect, in favour of corner cutting and mollhycoddling This is the reality Some opposition parties belatedly came around But PBP were there advocating sensible policy from the start And all credit to them for that
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Het-field
Roy Keane By Appointment to His Majesty The King Joined: 08 Mar 2016 Status: Online Points: 10347 |
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Of course it was about perfection, and ideologically driven perfection at that. If you read the roadmap, it included things like dropping fines for people visiting each others houses (when community transmission is undoubtedly a major part of what created the post Christmas numbers), policy that would have created a wedge between the Pharma companies and government (which has the potential of tying the vaccine rollout up in litigation), and the usual "make the corporations pay for it". Covid prevention strategies can also be evaluated against their logistics, and that includes simplistic blurbs about All Ireland policy (which has political ramifications). Slapping the term"Zero Covid" on that doesnt make it commendable.
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