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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2021 at 8:20pm
Originally posted by pre Madonna pre Madonna wrote:

Labour hasn't been home for social progressives in years, even if some progressives like Bacik remain. Ireland needs a proper left of centre party( so does England!), but neither Labour or SF are it. 

Labour and the SD's will have to merge, and under the SD banner to cast off the shackles of the 2011-2016 Government. Labour we hamstrung at the time, but the fact that it has been five years of chronic decline, they will have to do something in order to revive their fortunes, and that may need to be the relinquishing of the Labour brand. They have the ability to form the centre-left block, especially if SF go in to government.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 50%lesssugar&salt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2021 at 8:32pm
What is a social progressive? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2021 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by 50%lesssugar&salt 50%lesssugar&salt wrote:

What is a social progressive? 

People interested in social progress. The expansion of personal rights. That sort of thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 50%lesssugar&salt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2021 at 11:45pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by 50%lesssugar&salt 50%lesssugar&salt wrote:

What is a social progressive? 

People interested in social progress. The expansion of personal rights. That sort of thing.

Fair enough. It is a term though that probably all political groupings could claim. I am sure Margaret Thatcher would have seen herself as socially progressive. 
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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2021 at 10:19am
Originally posted by 50%lesssugar&salt 50%lesssugar&salt wrote:


Fair enough. It is a term though that probably all political groupings could claim. I am sure Margaret Thatcher would have seen herself as socially progressive. 

Definitely. Although it becomes harder and harder to claim if there is no record in the area. The Irish Labour party, to me, has a strong claim on the term, especially considering its history and the social reform that has happened under its watch. It is no coincidence that in Ireland, things like Divorce and Equal Marriage were achieved under their watch, and the groundwork for the Repeal referendum was done under their watch. In conjunction, FG had historically been more socially liberal, when working with Labour, and their more conservative teeth have only cropped up in the past five years when they didn't need to defer to Labour.

In Ireland, there is certainly a definable progressive movement. The difficulty is its co-opted by a lot of people who would either use the progressive mindset to further an ideological agenda, or people who would give crumbs of social progress to give themselves a record, when inherently they would be conservatives.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baldrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2021 at 10:30am
The labour party's record on economic matters is there to be critique and rightly so.  However Heitfeld is correct they are one of the few parties that can hold their head high in relation to social issues and not just in protest but in actually getting things over the line.  However there is no long term votes in it as many social democratic parties have found.  As Clinton famously said it's the economy stupid. 

Edited by Baldrick - 31 Jan 2021 at 10:30am
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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2021 at 11:35am
Originally posted by Baldrick Baldrick wrote:

The labour party's record on economic matters is there to be critique and rightly so.  However Heitfeld is correct they are one of the few parties that can hold their head high in relation to social issues and not just in protest but in actually getting things over the line.  However there is no long term votes in it as many social democratic parties have found.  As Clinton famously said it's the economy stupid. 

True, and while I suspect it won't be a popular opinion on here, economic progress is not the preserve of the left. Right wing parties certainly, prior to 2002 had a record of things like introducing the highest minimum wages in Europe. And, things like the reduction in corporation tax has been economically progressive in terms of FDI and job creation. Liberalising markets can be extremely progressive, and when you think about the deregulation of the taxi market, that was progressive. Funny enough, one of SF's most prominent goals, about Insurance reform, was historically a PD policy.

Social progress is relatively easy to quantify, as it involves the expansion of personal and social rights. Economic progress, not so much.
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Liam Brady
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 50%lesssugar&salt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2021 at 11:35am
I tend to agree with the majority of what ye both said there. With FG it is a little more complex with there traditionally being two competing wings within the party, particularly on social issues. The Declan Costello just society document and the leadership of Garret Fitzgerald being examples of the social progressives. 

Labour deserve much more credit than given on their achievements in government. The key point for me is looking at  the record of achievement. 

The fact that recent social change has been so widely accepted and supported is probably the most impressive piece. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2021 at 1:34pm
Originally posted by 50%lesssugar&salt 50%lesssugar&salt wrote:

I tend to agree with the majority of what ye both said there. With FG it is a little more complex with there traditionally being two competing wings within the party, particularly on social issues. The Declan Costello just society document and the leadership of Garret Fitzgerald being examples of the social progressives. 

Labour deserve much more credit than given on their achievements in government. The key point for me is looking at  the record of achievement. 

The fact that recent social change has been so widely accepted and supported is probably the most impressive piece. 

Modern politics doesnt have much time for historic achievements. Promise the sun the moon and the stars, pick holes in parties actually interested in Governance, and brag about the number of papers you sold at marches and demonstrations, and your own rhetoric, and that gets you in the door.

The fact that Labour were hamstrung by the terms of the troika matters little when it comes to evaluating Labour.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Double Maxim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2021 at 3:43pm
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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2021 at 12:36pm
In a small, but relevant move this week, I saw Paul Murphy joined PBP. Anybody who remembers that politics didn't start in 2012 will have to acknowledge that this is an interesting move from the point of view of the original divide between the Socialist Party and the SWP, as it was before the rebrand for the latter in 2007.

Normally, I have to point and laugh at what the likes of PBP do, but this is an interesting step towards co-operation and unification, and IIRC PBP did actually engage in potential government formation talks. Murphy is really the heir to Higgins, and I suspect this move may encourage a degree of unification around the PBP banner, leaving behind others, and in particular the people who want to be permanent protestors, without any interest in being involved in legislating.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2021 at 12:44pm
People Before Profit advocated zero Covid/aggressive suppression from the start

I'm open to correction on this, but I'm pretty sure they were the only Irish political grouping of any standing to do so

On the most important issue of our time, they stood alone in getting it right

And that should be remembered
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FrankosHereNow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2021 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

People Before Profit advocated zero Covid/aggressive suppression from the start

I'm open to correction on this, but I'm pretty sure they were the only Irish political grouping of any standing to do so

On the most important issue of our time, they stood alone in getting it right

And that should be remembered
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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2021 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

People Before Profit advocated zero Covid/aggressive suppression from the start



Of course they did. Set up a standard of perfection, and then complain when the Government cant and don't implement it. And internally in the roadmap is plenty of their ideology.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seanyshuffler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2021 at 1:08pm
Didn't Paul Murphy leave PBP to set up his own group recently or am I mixing up parties?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2021 at 1:14pm
Originally posted by Het-field Het-field wrote:

Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

People Before Profit advocated zero Covid/aggressive suppression from the start



Of course they did. Set up a standard of perfection, and then complain when the Government cant and don't implement it. And internally in the roadmap is plenty of their ideology.
PBP were correct on this

It wasn't about perfection at all

It was about recognising the central reality that you couldn't live with Covid

Failure to recognise that = doomed policy

What we got: doomed policy

PBP were right and the government and other parties were wrong


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sid waddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2021 at 1:20pm
In fact opponents of zero Covid/aggressive suppression have continually pointed to it not being perfect as a reason to viciously oppose it 

Our government and political class in general, along with the granny-killing psychopaths of the far right who you'd expect, all opposed a good idea because it wasn't perfect, in favour of corner cutting and mollhycoddling

This is the reality

Some opposition parties belatedly came around

But PBP were there advocating sensible policy from the start

And all credit to them for that
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Roy Keane
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Het-field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2021 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by sid waddell sid waddell wrote:

PBP were correct on this

It wasn't about perfection at all

It was about recognising the central reality that you couldn't live with Covid

Failure to recognise that = doomed policy

What we got: doomed policy

PBP were right and the government and other parties were wrong



Of course it was about perfection, and ideologically driven perfection at that. If you read the roadmap, it included things like dropping fines for people visiting each others houses (when community transmission is undoubtedly a major part of what created the post Christmas numbers), policy that would have created a wedge between the Pharma companies and government (which has the potential of tying the vaccine rollout up in litigation), and the usual "make the corporations pay for it".

Covid prevention strategies can also be evaluated against their logistics, and that includes simplistic blurbs about All Ireland policy (which has political ramifications). Slapping the term"Zero Covid" on that doesnt make it commendable. 
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