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Davey Langan
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by counterlock counterlock wrote:

You are equating spending to success. Over the last 5 years, Villareal have a net spend of about 10 million, Sevilla about 40 million, Atletico about 90 million, and all of them have won the europa league.

Over the same period, United have spent 500 million, Spurs 250 million and Arsenal 400 million without a single european trophy.

Did you even read the UEFA link I gave you?

It shows decisively that English clubs have outperformed Spanish (and all other countries') clubs over the last five years, such that not even RM's success prevents the EPL from being clearly out in front. As for Spanish EL success, with Sevilla and Villareal at least, they clearly decided that they couldn't even hope to win La Liga, so instead concentrated all their resources towards Europe.

As for the effect of money generally, having it doesn't guarantee success, but not having it makes it increasingly difficult to be successful, especially now that English clubs are finally capitalising (sorry) on their wealth.

And here too, all the evidence is that the wealth gap is increasing. Deloittes published their latest Annual Review of Football Finances yesterday, which included the following:
"The Premier League today may be further ahead of the competition than ever before. Concerningly, when excluding the Premier League, the [German/Italian/Spanish/French leagues] reported increased total operating losses during the year, increasing from €461m to €901m."
While in contrast:
"With the return of full stadia, along with new broadcast deals and improved commercial deals, the outlook for future Premier League clubs’ revenues is optimistic, with overall revenue projected to surpass £6 billion in the 2022/23 season."

I predict that outwith RM, but including Barca, it will become ever more unlikely that selected Spanish clubs will buck the clear economic trends.


It might be worth looking into how your bullet proof UEFA coeeficient source is calculated especially since no weighting is given to actually lifting the cup - you know, things fans actually care about.

Rather than looking at something that some administrator in UEFA came up, look at the results, actual tangible proof of a teams performance. English teams have come up against spanish teams in the champions league 16 times in the last 5 years (knockout stages).
W 6 L 10




Edited by counterlock - 18 Aug 2022 at 2:29pm
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IMO Real Madrid are still the 'biggest' club in the world. Maybe not in financial terms although im sure they are right up there but in general terms. When i think of the ultimate club you could play for i only come to 1 conclusion. Not Man City or Liverpool. No amount of money can buy that sort of prestige. 
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Originally posted by BrendanD88 BrendanD88 wrote:

Quite simply, had Manchester City offered better terms, to Sporting, the player, and him personally, that’s where he would have directed his client.

I honestly have no idea what point you’re trying to make here.
My point was that previously, had any Spanish club offered even equal terms to Sporting/Nunes/Mendes, never mind better ones, that's where the player would likely have gone.

For Spain was traditionally the market of choice for promising young Portugese players, for obvious reasons. But increasingly we've seen such players go to England, since with the exception of RM (and Barca?) Spanish clubs are struggling to compete these days.

Even against a moderate club like Wolves.
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by FrankosHereNow FrankosHereNow wrote:

It’s about winning trophies, not how much you spend. All of what you say is irrelevant. Spanish teams win either the CL or EL almost every season. I don’t think any Villarreal fan gives a sh*t about Nottingham Forest spending 10’s of millions on players. Their Europa League crown the season before last is much more important. You’ll be counting Twitter retweets next.
Of course it's about winning trophies, but as that famous "Little Englander" Arsene Wenger once pointed out, qualifying for Europe is the equivalent of "winning a trophy", because the financial rewards mean that you can continue to reinvest in the team, in order to go on winning trophies.

And European football is not a "winner takes all" concept financially, which is why it is important to progress through the rounds as well. Which itself is only what English clubs have done more successfully than any others in recent years.

As for Villareal, who's to say that in 30 or 40 years their fans won't be looking back on their recent successes as a "Golden Age", when they punched above their weight in Europe under a charismatic manager. etc?

You know, like (ahem) Nottingham Forest fans have been doing for the last 30 or 40 years... Wink
Most fans look longingly back on their teams glory days.....even happens in the NIFL...I remember there long ago there was a team who wore green from your neck of the woods who were very successful....wonder what happened to them ? I don't mean BC...
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by BrendanD88 BrendanD88 wrote:

Quite simply, had Manchester City offered better terms, to Sporting, the player, and him personally, that’s where he would have directed his client.

I honestly have no idea what point you’re trying to make here.
My point was that previously, had any Spanish club offered even equal terms to Sporting/Nunes/Mendes, never mind better ones, that's where the player would likely have gone.

For Spain was traditionally the market of choice for promising young Portugese players, for obvious reasons. But increasingly we've seen such players go to England, since with the exception of RM (and Barca?) Spanish clubs are struggling to compete these days.

Even against a moderate club like Wolves.

Nottingham Forest have spent over £100m on transfers this summer I’m sure their fans would put that on a par with winning the European Cup twice.
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Originally posted by counterlock counterlock wrote:

It might be worth looking into how your bullet proof UEFA coeeficient source is calculated especially since no weighting is given to actually lifting the cup - you know, things fans actually care about.

Rather than looking at something that some administrator in UEFA came up, look at the results, actual tangible proof of a teams performance.

If you have a better way of measuring it, then let's see it.

In the meantime, the respected and independent Bert Kassie is happy to quote UEFA's club coefficienet ratings, in fact he even shows how UEFA calculate them:
https://kassiesa.net/uefa/calc.html

Originally posted by counterlock counterlock wrote:

English teams have come up against spanish teams in the champions league 16 times in the last 5 years (knockout stages).
W 6 L 10
How many of those Spanish winns were down to Real Madrid? And have you counted Europa League and Conference clashes? Has your 5 Spanish dominance been consistent over all five years? And have you considered Spanish results against non-English sides? (eg Real losing at home to Sherif Tiraspol last season, or Barca failing even to get out of the CL Group stages)

My point being that when you look at all the factors, English clubs have been more successful overal in Europe over the last 5 years than those of Spain or any other country. That much is pretty incontestable, I think.
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by counterlock counterlock wrote:

It might be worth looking into how your bullet proof UEFA coeeficient source is calculated especially since no weighting is given to actually lifting the cup - you know, things fans actually care about.

Rather than looking at something that some administrator in UEFA came up, look at the results, actual tangible proof of a teams performance.

If you have a better way of measuring it, then let's see it.

In the meantime, the respected and independent Bert Kassie is happy to quote UEFA's club coefficienet ratings, in fact he even shows how UEFA calculate them:

Originally posted by counterlock counterlock wrote:

English teams have come up against spanish teams in the champions league 16 times in the last 5 years (knockout stages).
W 6 L 10
How many of those Spanish winns were down to Real Madrid? And have you counted Europa League and Conference clashes? Has your 5 Spanish dominance been consistent over all five years? And have you considered Spanish results against non-English sides? (eg Real losing at home to Sherif Tiraspol last season, or Barca failing even to get out of the CL Group stages)


Exclude Real Madrid because it suits your argument. Why would I include non spanish teams when it is about the two countries in question. English teams beat them every time in the group last year, something like W 10 L0, which completely skews the coefficient.

It has been pretty consistent in the Champions league
  meetings Spain W England W
17-18 3 3 0
18-19 2 1 1
19-20 2 1 1
20-21 3 2 1
21-22 6 3 2


Europa league much closer, but no gap exists with 5 a piece.

  meetings Spain W England W
17-18 1 1 0
18-19 1 0 1
19-20 3 2 1
20-21 4 2 2
21-22 1 0 1

Quote

My point being that when you look at all the factors, English clubs have been more successful overal in Europe over the last 5 years than those of Spain or any other country. That much is pretty incontestable, I think.
How is it it incontestable, when a team from Spain has won 6 of the possible 11 trophies, where as England has 3.
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Originally posted by doherty doherty wrote:

IMO Real Madrid are still the 'biggest' club in the world.

Of course they are and I have neveer denied it. Nor would I bet against their continuing that position in years to come.

But this is the "La Liga" thread, and my argument is that while RM have maintained their previous preeminent position iin world football, the rest of the Spanish clubs have fallen further and further behind, both domeestically and in Europe.

In other words, La Liga increasingly lacks the strength in depth of the EPL.

Which is why the latter is increasingly attracting the best players and coaches, also the biggest crowds, the best facilities, the widest foreign interest (TV and media etc) and the wealthiest foreign investors, all leading to by far the highest financial wealth.

And on the basis that the EPL aren't likely to go on wasting that waealth forever, that explains why RM, Barca and Juve are desperate to introduce a European Super League. Worse still, such is the strength of the EPL that they felt compelled to invite English clubs to make up half of the original 12 founding member places. And let's be honest, they woiuldn't have done that if they could have avoided it, would they?


Edited by Territorial - 18 Aug 2022 at 2:59pm
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Your talking purely money tho. In the last decade or so you have Barca Real Madrid Sevilla Athletico Madrid and Villarreal all winning either the Champions League or Europa League. As some other posters have pointed out its about winning things. Your point is a little muddled up if you ask me. 

Edited by doherty - 18 Aug 2022 at 3:07pm
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

Yeah he'll be praying his career path takes a similar route to that of Eric Garcia and Ferran Torres i'm sure

City don't sell their best players in their prime
Tbf, they have just sold Jesus (25) and Sterling (27). Though not to Spain.

Hardly among their best players considering they were leaving as they were bit part players
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Originally posted by counterlock counterlock wrote:

[
How is it it incontestable, when a team from Spain has won 6 of the possible 11 trophies, where as England has 3.

Then how UEFA's coefficients, er, deficient?

In the end, you're talking about knockout football and that has a random element to it, for example merely counting triophy wins, rather than overall performance, especially when you have a dominant club like RM to skew the figures. I could poiint to the fact of England having had 5 separate EC/CL winners, plus another 4 separate runners-up, something which no other country comes remotely close to.

But answer me this. If Spanish football is still so dominant in Eurpean terms as you claim, then why are RM, Barca and Atletico at the very forefront of efforts to dismantlle the current European competition system and replace it with one of their own which, inter alia, would guarantee them permanent membership, without fear of relegation?
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Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by counterlock counterlock wrote:

[
How is it it incontestable, when a team from Spain has won 6 of the possible 11 trophies, where as England has 3.

Then how UEFA's coefficients, er, deficient?
The UEFA coefficient gives you as many points for qualifying out of the group as it does for winning the semi final and final. Which as a fan would you prefer?

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

In the end, you're talking about knockout football and that has a random element to it, for example merely counting triophy wins, rather than overall performance, especially when you have a dominant club like RM to skew the figures. I could poiint to the fact of England having had 5 separate EC/CL winners, plus another 4 separate runners-up, something which no other country comes remotely close to.


You could point that out, but specifically you had mentioned that you only wanted to talk about the last few years.

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

But answer me this. If Spanish football is still so dominant in Eurpean terms as you claim, then why are RM, Barca and Atletico at the very forefront of efforts to dismantlle the current European competition system and replace it with one of their own which, inter alia, would guarantee them permanent membership, without fear of relegation?


I've not made any claims, I've pointed out results. Wins - specifically when they count. Weren't there 6 English teams looking to enter the super league? Why are they so many premier league teams looking to enter it if it is as awash with money. Are they worried about missing out on that coveted top four trophy?
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Originally posted by doherty doherty wrote:

Your talking purely money tho. In the last decade or so you have Barca Real Madrid Sevilla Athletico Madrid and Villarreal all winning either the Champions League or Europa League. As some other posters have pointed out its about winning things. Your point is a little muddled up if you ask me. 
Once again, I would point out that this is the La Liga thread. And notwiithstanding RM's success, I am arguing that in relative terms, La Liga has fallen behind the EPL on playijng standards in recent years, and imo looks likely to fall even further behind.

Which actually partly explains why an individual club in RM can continue to be successful in Europe i.e. with their own league title pretty much won by Xmas, they can concentrate on Europe from January onwards. Nor do they ever have to worry abour qualifying for the CL each year, unlike eg Spurs, Arsenal or Man Utd.

Similarly, clubs like Sevilla and Villareal don't even try to copmpete in La Liga these days, meaning they can devote all their resorces towards Europe.

On top of which, it takes time to build up a European pedigree, as evidenced by how long it took eg Man U to win the CL under Fergie. Similarly Man City under Pep have had to build gradually towardscompeting in Europe. But they're becoming ever closer, even while also winning the bulk of the trophies in England.

As they say in The City, "The trend is your friend".
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Originally posted by counterlock counterlock wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

Originally posted by counterlock counterlock wrote:

[
How is it it incontestable, when a team from Spain has won 6 of the possible 11 trophies, where as England has 3.

Then how UEFA's coefficients, er, deficient?
The UEFA coefficient gives you as many points for qualifying out of the group as it does for winning the semi final and final. Which as a fan would you prefer?

I've asked you for an alternative, scientific method for measuring these things, instead you've just cherrypicked a few elements to support your case.

Meanwhile, as a Spurs fan, I'd much rather my team won the EPL than the CL. I suspect the majority of my fellow Spurs fans feel similarly.

Originally posted by counterlock counterlock wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

In the end, you're talking about knockout football and that has a random element to it, for example merely counting triophy wins, rather than overall performance, especially when you have a dominant club like RM to skew the figures. I could poiint to the fact of England having had 5 separate EC/CL winners, plus another 4 separate runners-up, something which no other country comes remotely close to.

You could point that out, but specifically you had mentioned that you only wanted to talk about the last few years.
OK, I'll rephrase: "I could  have cherrypicked another random element to support my case, but I don't need to."

Happy with that?

Originally posted by counterlock counterlock wrote:

Originally posted by Territorial Territorial wrote:

But answer me this. If Spanish football is still so dominant in Eurpean terms as you claim, then why are RM, Barca and Atletico at the very forefront of efforts to dismantlle the current European competition system and replace it with one of their own which, inter alia, would guarantee them permanent membership, without fear of relegation?

I've not made any claims, I've pointed out results. Wins - specifically when they count.
So what are you claiming?

That La Liga is a stronger league than the EPL, both in terms of playing standards, depth, support and interest?

Originally posted by counterlock counterlock wrote:

Weren't there 6 English teams looking to enter the super league? Why are they so many premier league teams looking to enter it if it is as awash with money. Are they worried about missing out on that coveted top four trophy?
There weren't "6 English teams" [sic] looking to enter the super league. Rather, three or four foreign owners of English clubs were persuaded it would be a good idea, with another couple going along for fear of missing out.

But immediately the full implications of the scheme were revealed, those clubs' executives, management, players and (crucially) supporters all demonstrated against it.

Meaning the real question is, why are RM and Barca (and Juve) still persisiting with it, when England, Germany, France and (most of) Italy are no longer interested?

Smacks of utter desperation to me.




Edited by Territorial - 18 Aug 2022 at 4:01pm
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I think we'll have to agree to disagree on it Terri. I measure success by actually lifting trophies.
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The same people who were saying the Bundesliga is the best in the world a few years ago now saying its La Liga

Come on lads, the tans aren't going to come back over and take over your town if you call a spade a spade. 

The EPL has been the best in the world for the last few years 
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Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

The same people who were saying the Bundesliga is the best in the world a few years ago now saying its La Liga

Come on lads, the tans aren't going to come back over and take over your town if you call a spade a spade. 

The EPL has been the best in the world for the last few years 
the English championship is the best league......not the best quality but for pure enjoyment it's the best
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Originally posted by Roberto Baggio Roberto Baggio wrote:

The same people who were saying the Bundesliga is the best in the world a few years ago now saying its La Liga

Come on lads, the tans aren't going to come back over and take over your town if you call a spade a spade. 

The EPL has been the best in the world for the last few years 

It depends on what you define the best league in the world tho. They all have their strengths and weaknesses, different styles etc. You would get bored of you just watched 1 of them all the time. Do any of them have to be defined as the best? I would suggest not. I enjoy all the top 5 leagues. Probably the Bundesliga would be my least favourite to watch.
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